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ISP Revoking CCLs due to Improper Training


Keith44
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The following was posted to the “official” ISP Investigations facebook group:

 

ILLINOIS STATE POLICE INVESTIGATE CCL INSTRUCTOR FOR IMPROPER TRAINING AND FORGERY

Springfield, IL – The Illinois State Police (ISP) Firearms Services Bureau (FSB) Investigative Support Unit (ISU) and the Macoupin County States Attorney Jordan Garrison charged Concealed Carry License (CCL) Instructor Terry Lumma, 60-year-old female of Shipman, IL with Forgery (Class 3 Felony) and Providing False Conceal Carry Weapon (CCW) Certification (Class A Misdemeanor).
“The Illinois State Police takes these types of allegations seriously and will investigate those who attempt to defraud the system and bring them to justice,” stated ISP Director Brendan F. Kelly. “The men and women of the Illinois State Police, Firearms Services Bureau, continuously strive to protect and maintain the integrity of the FOID and CCL.”
In December 2020, the ISP FSB received a complaint against Lumma. The complaint stated Lumma was not teaching the CCL classes according to the CCL Act 430 ILCS 66/75 (ilga.gov). After a five-month investigation, the FSB investigators found evidence to support the allegations of the complaint. The case was presented to the Macoupin County States Attorney Jordan Garrison, who made the determination to file criminal charges. Lumma was charged with Forgery and Providing False CCW Certification. Lumma was mailed a Notice to Appear and is scheduled to appear at the Macoupin County courthouse on June 23, 2021 at 8:45 a.m.
Due to this investigation, the ISP FSB determined that all the concealed carry certification courses hosted by Lumma, failed to satisfy the mandatory requirements for concealed carry firearm training set forth in the CCL Act. As a result, training certificates issued to over 200 students by Lumma and submitted to the ISP as part of their CCL application have been deemed invalid. All of these students were sent letters notifying them of their status and are being provided a grace period of 60 days from receipt of the letter to complete the requirements for a new, valid CCL. During the 60-day period, the ISP will deem the CCL holder as valid, if the CCL is otherwise in good standing.
In accordance with Section 75 of the Firearm Concealed Carry Act, 430 ILCS 66/75, qualified instructors are required to teach all applicants, who are not eligible for prior training credit, a minimum of 16 hours of instruction approved by the Illinois State Police prior to issuing an Illinois Concealed Carry License Training Certification.
The ISP FSB provides a list of CCL frequently asked questions: IL Firearm Applicant Portal (ispfsb.com).
All subjects are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
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... charged Concealed Carry License (CCL) Instructor Terry Lumma, 60-year-old female of Shipman, IL with Forgery (Class 3 Felony) and Providing False Conceal Carry Weapon (CCW) Certification (Class A Misdemeanor).

 

... As a result, training certificates issued to over 200 students by Lumma and submitted to the ISP as part of their CCL application have been deemed invalid. All of these students were sent letters notifying them of their status and are being provided a grace period of 60 days from receipt of the letter to complete the requirements for a new, valid CCL....

She's not the first CCL instructor to be nailed for not teaching a compliant curriculum, although the forgery charge is a new angle to me. It's unfortunate for the students she taught, assuming they thought she was legit.

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Pretty nice of the ISP to allow a 60 day window to get into a class and submit the new cert to remain in good standing.

And add that the CCL is still valid during that same 60 day window. Generous indeed for this state.

I would hope some of those top level instructors out there would hold a discount (fee wise) class for those involved.

Thankfully there has only been a hand full of bad apples since inception.

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They're looking for instructors that cheat the system and shortchange their students by cutting hours, contents, etc. I know of one locally who was giving permits out for four hours of "class." The qualification target was an old dresser on the burn pile behind his house. ISP was made aware of it but apparently wasn't interested as he's still on the list of approvied instructors.

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Pretty nice of the ISP to allow a 60 day window to get into a class and submit the new cert to remain in good standing.

And add that the CCL is still valid during that same 60 day window. Generous indeed for this state.

I would hope some of those top level instructors out there would hold a discount (fee wise) class for those involved.

Thankfully there has only been a hand full of bad apples since inception.

I am holding classes for George Parsons students this weekend in Spring Valley, no charge. There will be more classes next month. I know George and I don't know if he is guilty or not. I am doing this for the students, there are over 300. This stuff makes all of us look bad. If anyone wants to help please PM me.

Edited by reelpro
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How are they getting caught, what does one look for in training?

We had a similar situation in the county next to mine. A woman student who was not in on the scam complained to DPS that she thought her training was inadequate. Hundreds of licenses were revoked and the instructor paid hefty fines and lost his licenses but I don't think he did jail time.

 

We all need to be vigilant to root out these miscreants to protect our rights and our community from unwanted scrutiny.

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Pretty nice of the ISP to allow a 60 day window to get into a class and submit the new cert to remain in good standing.

And add that the CCL is still valid during that same 60 day window. Generous indeed for this state.

I would hope some of those top level instructors out there would hold a discount (fee wise) class for those involved.

Thankfully there has only been a hand full of bad apples since inception.

I am holding classes for George Parsons students this weekend in Spring Valley, no charge. There will be more classes next month. I know George and I don't know if he is guilty or not. I am doing this for the students, there are over 300. This stuff makes all of us look bad. If anyone wants to help please PM me.

 

You sir are a class act! :) I did this for students several years ago.

 

It's a bit of a trip to Rockford, but I have a class this weekend, if any or the Shipman folks want to make the trip, the class is on me and the gas is on you. PM me and I will get you in this weekend,

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I found this on a facebook group discussing instructors giving short classes. It is enough to drive you nuts. Where do these instructors dream these ideas up? This is what makes us look bad.

 

Quote: "the State makes instructors send in a curriculum of what they plan to teach . It gets approved by the State . We have to follow that curriculum . As long as we teach everything on the curriculum we do not have to do the EXACT 16 hours . If I have 5 students in a class rather than 20 students it goes faster . For instance range time takes less time depending on how many students I have . It also depends if you own the range or if you have to travel to a range . Thats why the State says the main thing is that you must follow a curriculum and teach everything in the curriculum . When someone loses their license for non sufficient hours it's usually because they didn't bother to teach much of anything ." Unquote.

 

Amazing

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This is why I always would take my classes a little bit longer and try to keep everything by the book. I do my classes by the clock and not by the amount of material. If you are running out of material you can always add something that adds value to the time, like how to clean guns with the patches you just made from your t-shirt. Bring scissors in your cleaning kit!
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I found this on a facebook group discussing instructors giving short classes. It is enough to drive you nuts. Where do these instructors dream these ideas up? This is what makes us look bad.

 

Quote: "the State makes instructors send in a curriculum of what they plan to teach . It gets approved by the State . We have to follow that curriculum . As long as we teach everything on the curriculum we do not have to do the EXACT 16 hours . If I have 5 students in a class rather than 20 students it goes faster . For instance range time takes less time depending on how many students I have . It also depends if you own the range or if you have to travel to a range . Thats why the State says the main thing is that you must follow a curriculum and teach everything in the curriculum . When someone loses their license for non sufficient hours it's usually because they didn't bother to teach much of anything ." Unquote.

 

Amazing

This might not be liked by everyone but just my opinion. The training is beyond excessive. 16 hours isn't the right amount of time to learn CCW. I believe it takes much more training than that. Sitting in a classroom listening to a lecture will lose a percentage of the audience. Reading from a couple other posters who are teaching use the remaining time to go over other things like cleaning etc. which has little to do with CC is a simple reason that putting a clock to it doesn't make sense. The above post mentioning they cover the cirriculum approved by ISP should be more than enough. Why must it come down to an exact number of minutes? Bottom line from me is that you are responsible for every round no matter where they land. That should be about the only point an instructor should need to make. Personal responsibility isn't really a thing anymore?

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The curriculum requirements break down the minimum times on particular subjects. Some subjects are more difficult to go beyond the suggested minimums than other subjects. I like the idea of people having training to get their CCL, but I agree that 16 hours was an arbitrary number that we were happy to accept in order to get CCL in Illinois. There hasn't been much in the way of fixing the CCL law. For every fix the food we should have pushed back with fixing the CCL.
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Pretty nice of the ISP to allow a 60 day window to get into a class and submit the new cert to remain in good standing.

And add that the CCL is still valid during that same 60 day window. Generous indeed for this state.

I would hope some of those top level instructors out there would hold a discount (fee wise) class for those involved.

Thankfully there has only been a hand full of bad apples since inception.

I am holding classes for George Parsons students this weekend in Spring Valley, no charge. There will be more classes next month. I know George and I don't know if he is guilty or not. I am doing this for the students, there are over 300. This stuff makes all of us look bad. If anyone wants to help please PM me.

 

 

Bravo Sir! That's mighty thoughtful of you.

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I found this on a facebook group discussing instructors giving short classes. It is enough to drive you nuts. Where do these instructors dream these ideas up? This is what makes us look bad.

 

Quote: "the State makes instructors send in a curriculum of what they plan to teach . It gets approved by the State . We have to follow that curriculum . As long as we teach everything on the curriculum we do not have to do the EXACT 16 hours . If I have 5 students in a class rather than 20 students it goes faster . For instance range time takes less time depending on how many students I have . It also depends if you own the range or if you have to travel to a range . Thats why the State says the main thing is that you must follow a curriculum and teach everything in the curriculum . When someone loses their license for non sufficient hours it's usually because they didn't bother to teach much of anything ." Unquote.[/size]

 

Amazing[/size]

 

This might not be liked by everyone but just my opinion. The training is beyond excessive. 16 hours isn't the right amount of time to learn CCW. I believe it takes much more training than that. Sitting in a classroom listening to a lecture will lose a percentage of the audience. Reading from a couple other posters who are teaching use the remaining time to go over other things like cleaning etc. which has little to do with CC is a simple reason that putting a clock to it doesn't make sense. The above post mentioning they cover the cirriculum approved by ISP should be more than enough. Why must it come down to an exact number of minutes? Bottom line from me is that you are responsible for every round no matter where they land. That should be about the only point an instructor should need to make. Personal responsibility isn't really a thing anymore?

I think we hold class for 16 hours because we agreed to it to become instructors. There’s always more you can teach. What are you going to do if your class is audited and it ends up being a short class?

 

A buddy of mine took one of those 4 hour classes.

No students have complained so far…

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  • 4 weeks later...
Yes, because I am a law abiding citizen. Confused why you would ask. What was your point? Many things are infringements on our liberties that the honest and law abiding follow while challenges work their way through the political and judicial process. Edit: I did not learn anything I did not already know and several things were technical errors, but I smiled, nodded,shot a perfect high/score, got my certificate and left. On the original and the renewal from 2 different "instructors." Both very nice guys. Edited by Sol-Invictus
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Requiring training is an infringement, period. Guns are simple tools. If someone wants to take and pay for training, fine. I can read and understand the law myself. 16 hours is patently absurd.

So I’m guessing you don’t have a ccl? Or did you take that absurdly required infringing training anyway?

 

 

I had a CCL. I took all of the training.

Now living outside of Illinois I am in a state that recently went constitutional carry. Granny can go pick up a Desert Eagle from the Pawn at Dawn Store on her way to get her stool softeners and nobody can say nothin.

Of course training is a good thing.

I will say that everyone to some extent is a product of their environment. Since July 1st I have not read of any Thunderdome gangs mowing down citizens in Tennessee.

If that were Illinois on that same July 1st, I expect most liberals would be urinating their panties while dropping onto their fainting couch. I also think that maybe a few conservatives might be "Hey wait a minute".

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When I was an instructor my classes started with a disclaimer that there should be no such thing as mandatory training but since it is required we will do the full 16 hours. Last week I had someone ask me about taking one of my classes and after hearing I am no longer an instructor they ask who I recommend. Living in Indiana I don't keep up with this any more so recommend no one. I do tell them that if they take a class that is not the full amount of time to demand their money back now. Jim.

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