ATF Released New Proposed Pistol Brace Rules

[InterestedBystander]

Full article at link

 

https://www.ammoland.com/2021/06/atf-released-new-proposed-pistol-brace-rules/

 

...WASHINGTON D.C. -(Ammoland.com)- On Monday, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) released its proposed rule on pistol braces.

 

It starts by saying that any brace that the manufacturer intends to be fired from the shoulder will be considered a short-barreled rifle (SBR) and subjected to the National Firearms Act (NFA). The document further creates a points system that would allow the ATF to make most pistol braces SBR.

 

The maximum length of a pistol would be 26 inches. That would make any AR15 style pistol with a barrel over seven inches an SBR regardless of any other determination features. The measurements of a seven-inch AR pistol from the rear of the buffer tube to the front of the gun are 25 inches.

 

The document reads:...

[bmyers]

Looks like that proposal would make a lot of previous law abiding citizens criminals.

[seanc]

The ATF web page for this new proposed rule:

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/factoring-criteria-firearms-attached-stabilizing-braces

 

This is the ridiculous checklist they're proposing to classify pistol braces vs. shoulder stock:

https://www.atf.gov/file/154866/download

 

This rule has not yet been listed for comments:

www.regulations.gov.

 

No previous comments will have any bearing on this newly proposed rule, 2021R-08. Keep checking the page for when they finally post it for comments.

[springfield shooter]

Looks like that proposal would make a lot of previous law abiding citizens criminals.

 

For some people, that's a feature, not a bug.

[TRJ]

That Ammoland article is full of incorrect information. I suggest reading the ATF stuff. It's long and confusing as heck, but it's clear enough that you can see with few exceptions braces are done should this go into effect. The few braced pistols that survive the test can still turn into SBR based upon other accrssories or sighting systems or length or weight. The few that clear that hurdle can still get deemed SBR just because the ATF knows one when they see one.

[Davey]

Looks like that proposal would make a lot of previous law abiding citizens criminals.

 

That's the guiding principle.

[Jeffrey]

I assume no chance of any "grandfathering" for those who would suddenly become felonious.

 

Could this force Illinois to open up options for those willing to pay a tax stamp? Specifically those who don't have a C&R already. I might be on board for that if cans make the list too.

[seanc]

As I read the new regs, they are specifically targeting AR and AK pistols. It seems pistol braces like the MCK micro conversion braces for Glocks/Sigs/M&P can slip past this round of rule making. Nevertheless, we don't give an inch! This is just the 1st step in their plan to outlaw all semi-auto firearms.

[InterestedBystander]

That Ammoland article is full of incorrect information. I suggest reading the ATF stuff. It's long and confusing as heck, but it's clear enough that you can see with few exceptions braces are done should this go into effect. The few braced pistols that survive the test can still turn into SBR based upon other accrssories or sighting systems or length or weight. The few that clear that hurdle can still get deemed SBR just because the ATF knows one when they see one.

 

Thanks. Just ran across it yesterday and hadnt had a chance to dive deeper although I had downloaded the ATF pdf. That point system is crazy. Put on sights, get an SBR? Hope it gets stopped.

[TRJ]

I assume no chance of any "grandfathering" for those who would suddenly become felonious.

 

Could this force Illinois to open up options for those willing to pay a tax stamp? Specifically those who don't have a C&R already. I might be on board for that if cans make the list too.

I'd say no chance of grandfathering and anti gun illinois will enjoy squeezing you guys out of your pistols if you aren't prepared to change the barrels and make them 16"+ rifles.

I read that folks in Maryland can only have an AK in pistol form. This kills that for them and the only real option available to them is to forfeit the firearm. I'm sure other places have this problem too.

[defaultdotxbe]

 

I assume no chance of any "grandfathering" for those who would suddenly become felonious.

 

Could this force Illinois to open up options for those willing to pay a tax stamp? Specifically those who don't have a C&R already. I might be on board for that if cans make the list too.

I'd say no chance of grandfathering and anti gun illinois will enjoy squeezing you guys out of your pistols if you aren't prepared to change the barrels and make them 16"+ rifles.

I read that folks in Maryland can only have an AK in pistol form. This kills that for them and the only real option available to them is to forfeit the firearm. I'm sure other places have this problem too.

 

This doesn't affect all, or even most, AK/AR pistols, only those with the arm braces would be banned under this rule (and it would actually be the brace that gets banned, not the pistol itself)

[TRJ]

 

Here's an example of what you're facing:

 

I think the method of telescoping on rails is considered part of a known design, add points.
The telescoping itself also counts again as it's own points.
I'll add to that the sights might not be deemed useful at arms length so that adds points too.
I think I read that the velcro strap being tightened up like that indicates intent to use as a stock, more points.
If the strap is too short to go around your arm, points.
Then you consider the length and weight unloaded with a magazine.
The Surefire light/switches looks like an indication that the gun is intended to be shot with two hands...automagically SBR.
And after all that the enforcement guys can simply opine it's a SBR anyway.

 

[TRJ]

 

 

I assume no chance of any "grandfathering" for those who would suddenly become felonious.

 

Could this force Illinois to open up options for those willing to pay a tax stamp? Specifically those who don't have a C&R already. I might be on board for that if cans make the list too.

I'd say no chance of grandfathering and anti gun illinois will enjoy squeezing you guys out of your pistols if you aren't prepared to change the barrels and make them 16"+ rifles.

I read that folks in Maryland can only have an AK in pistol form. This kills that for them and the only real option available to them is to forfeit the firearm. I'm sure other places have this problem too.

 

This doesn't affect all, or even most, AK/AR pistols, only those with the arm braces would be banned under this rule (and it would actually be the brace that gets banned, not the pistol itself)

 

Was just repeating what I had read. Sorry if it's not true, I don't claim to be an expert. Thanks for the clarification.

[2A4Cook]

My favorite is that if it has AR style sights, 1 point, but if it has no sights (in addition to a red dot), 1 point. WHAT???

 

I can't wait for the lawsuits. People with local "assault rifle" bans get pistols in order to comply with the law. Then, the ATF retroactively illegalizes the pistols, but you can't add a 16" barrel or SBR it, so despite your best efforts, you are a criminal, and the loss of your property is tough titles to them.

 

BTW, I would like to b**** slap every single moron putting out YouTube videos of themselves blatantly shouldering with pistol braces over and and over. Way to go, geniuses.

[korgs130]

As I read the new regs, they are specifically targeting AR and AK pistols. It seems pistol braces like the MCK micro conversion braces for Glocks/Sigs/M&P can slip past this round of rule making. Nevertheless, we don't give an inch! This is just the 1st step in their plan to outlaw all semi-auto firearms.

 

Any firearm under 12” or over 26” with a brace is automatically considered a rifle inter the proposed rule. From page 18-19:

 

“Firearms possessing an overall length between 12 and 26 inches may be considered pistols for which a “stabilizing brace” could reasonably be attached to support one-handed fire. Firearms with an overall length of less than 12 inches are considered too short to indicate any need for a “stabilizing brace.” Conversely, firearms exceeding 26 inches in overall length are impractical and inaccurate

to fire one handed, even with a “stabilizing brace,” due to imbalance of the weapon.”

 

So I think you’re wrong in the MCK micro. Pistol accessories like to MCK don’t count toward overall length.

[korgs130]

 

 

Here's an example of what you're facing:

 

 

I think the method of telescoping on rails is considered part of a known design, add points.

The telescoping itself also counts again as it's own points.

I'll add to that the sights might not be deemed useful at arms length so that adds points too.

I think I read that the velcro strap being tightened up like that indicates intent to use as a stock, more points.

If the strap is too short to go around your arm, points.

Then you consider the length and weight unloaded with a magazine.

The Surefire light/switches looks like an indication that the gun is intended to be shot with two hands...automagically SBR.

And after all that the enforcement guys can simply opine it's a SBR anyway.

 

 

 

 

An SP5 w/ SB Tactical HP PDW brace I think scores a 7 in Section II of ATF Worksheet 4999, so it’s an SBR before you even get to Sec III with all of the sights and handguard accessories.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

In an email from FPC they stated one of their lawyers couldn't think of any normal braced pistol that could pass

[lilguy]

Is anyone surprised by this? Firearms and accessory manufactures and their customers, that’s us, have been poking at the beast in the cave forever to see what we can get away with. This is one occasion when that beast is biting back. Bumpstocks, Hellfire triggers actuators and forearm braces now are a few examples. There are other examples of this, the shockwave 12 gauge shotgun is another work around that may or may not last, if looks could kill it a SBS. The Streetsweeper shotgun became a destructive device some 20+ years ago but toady you can pick from a number of just as scary HIGH cap rotary shotguns at any LGS. As long as the ATF has rule making power it will do this and see if the courts supports the decisions. It’s a game they are good at.

[MagSlap]

 

 

[Euler]

In an email from FPC they stated one of their lawyers couldn't think of any normal braced pistol that could pass

Probably because "normal" braced pistols are set up like SBRs. I think AR/AK pistols could be used as pistols, but there's been too little manual-of-arms development. When few owners treat pistols as pistols, it's difficult to expect anyone else to believe they're pistols. Now the small number of owners who actually do have their pistols set up as pistols are going to catch crap along with all the owners who use them as backdoor SBRs.

 

... There are other examples of this, the shockwave 12 gauge shotgun is another work around that may or may not last, if looks could kill it a SBS. ...

The Shockwave still has no shoulder stock. There's no way to shoulder the bird's head grip. The requirement for shouldering is part of the NFA (i.e., a law), not an ATF regulation. There are kits to add a brace, but the problem is with the version that has a 14-inch barrel. If someone puts a brace on the 18-inch version, at worst it just becomes a regular shotgun. A Shockwave without a brace is still over 26 inches total, even the 14-inch version, which keeps it out of AOW territory. (A 14-inch barrel with the pistol grip, which is a combination Mossberg does not sell, would be an AOW.)

[seanc]

They are accepting comments now.

 

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/06/10/2021-12176/factoring-criteria-for-firearms-with-attached-stabilizing-braces#open-comment

[SiliconSorcerer]

Full article at link

 

https://www.ammoland.com/2021/06/atf-released-new-proposed-pistol-brace-rules/

 

...WASHINGTON D.C. -(Ammoland.com)- On Monday, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) released its proposed rule on pistol braces.

 

It starts by saying that any brace that the manufacturer intends to be fired from the shoulder will be considered a short-barreled rifle (SBR) and subjected to the National Firearms Act (NFA). The document further creates a points system that would allow the ATF to make most pistol braces SBR.

 

The maximum length of a pistol would be 26 inches. That would make any AR15 style pistol with a barrel over seven inches an SBR regardless of any other determination features. The measurements of a seven-inch AR pistol from the rear of the buffer tube to the front of the gun are 25 inches.

 

The document reads:...

 

So my Fiala's are safe depending on which barrel is installed at the time..