HB2354 Update - Firearm Restraining Order - Emergency Intervention

[GeekDad]

FWIW GSL just posted another article on their website... basically saying don't blame Illinois Carry or ISRA and instead blame the turncoat republicans. Seems to me that little TTAG article should be retracted...

 

It would be nice if they also do a new post on TTAG. Still some vitriol over there but I see at least one poster who's showing some restraint and looking at our side of the issue.

[InterestedBystander]

 

FWIW GSL just posted another article on their website... basically saying don't blame Illinois Carry or ISRA and instead blame the turncoat republicans. Seems to me that little TTAG article should be retracted...

 

It would be nice if they also do a new post on TTAG. Still some vitriol over there but I see at least one poster who's showing some restraint and looking at our side of the issue.

Quite the turnaround from all gun owners should abandon IC and hoping it dies. As with many things it is probably better to wait a bit before hitting the post button on the emotional issues

 

edit: the IC comment now appears as another posters comments instead of appearing in body and apparently coming from author. Unsure if an edit occurred or a software posting error from what I originally read.

[Molly B.]

....I hope that whatever caused this rift between the feuding groups can be mended.

The repeated pattern of vicious attacks like this just insures the guaranteed futility of that.

 

To be very clear, there was no working in the shadows or quietly behind the scenes. We were loud and clear, vocal and present for all the committee hearings, badgering the Republican and Democrat legislators, meeting with the sponsors on both sides of the aisle to lobby against this bill. Once it was clear the bill was going to pass with a humongous super-majority, we fought for every protection we could get. We were in close communication with the NRA every step of the way. They understood our position and we understood theirs, there were no surprises on our part.

 

Our one complaint with the NRA is the misinformation about the bill in their alerts.

 

Anyone who would do or say anything that takes the focus off beating JB Pritzker in the fall election doesnt have a grasp of what is at stake. This is what our focus should be:

 

Pritzker:

Openly proposed banning the sale of handguns

Supports a 100 percent tax on the sale of handgun ammunition

Has called for banning so-called "assault weapons" and "high capacity" magazines

Has contributed more than $100,000 to gun control groups

[steveTA84]

 

....I hope that whatever caused this rift between the feuding groups can be mended.

 

The repeated pattern of vicious attacks like this just insures the guaranteed futility of that.

 

To be very clear, there was no working in the shadows or quietly behind the scenes. We were loud and clear, vocal and present for all the committee hearings, badgering the Republican and Democrat legislators, meeting with the sponsors on both sides of the aisle to lobby against this bill. Once it was clear the bill was going to pass with a humongous super-majority, we fought for every protection we could get. We were in close communication with the NRA every step of the way. They understood our position and we understood theirs, there were no surprises.

 

Our one complaint with the NRA is the misinformation about the bill in their alerts.

 

Anyone who would do or say anything that takes the focus off beating JB Pritzker in the fall election doesn’t have a grasp of what is at stake. This is what our focus should be:

 

Pritzker:

Openly proposed banning the sale of handguns

Supports a 100 percent tax on the sale of handgun ammunition

Has called for banning so-called "assault weapons" and "high capacity" magazines

Has contributed more than $100,000 to gun control groups

You missed one on Pritzker

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/ct-jb-pritzker-glenn-poshard-20170925-story.html

 

Pritzker once served as chairman of the advisory board of the Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence.

[GP4L]

Steve and Molly are spot on. Truly sad that there's people on the right that will be contributing to JB's potential victory.

[cybermgk]

 

In an ex parte hearing? You look at the judge and say, "Your Honor, my (whomever) looked at me with a crazed look in his eyes. He was angier than I've ever seen him. He said, "I'm off to kill my sons," and I believe him, because he was so crazed and he has guns. I'm afraid for those kids!"

 

What's a judge supposed to do? If he doesn't grant the order and the kids are shot, he is going to take a lot of heat. THAT will be his primary consideration. At best, you could hope for, "You realize that you are under oath and could be charged with perjury if you are not telling the truth." How would she respond? "I lied, Your Honor, nevermind and please don't have me charged with perjury?"

 

In an actual hearing later, it's a he said she said. Whoever the judge believes, unless there is additional evidence.

 

Not according to the law. He said she said would not meet the level of proof required for a permanent order.

[Euler]

Our one complaint with the NRA is the misinformation about the bill in their alerts.

That misinformation is probably the basis for most of the rage here, too.

[G214me]

Steve and Molly are spot on. Truly sad that there's people on the right that will be contributing to JB's potential victory.

Yes, They're right. I'm no Rauner fan but am keeping in mind that JB has big plans for me and my fellow gun owners, as well as plans for many things I'm totally against. I remind myself that the things Rauner did that I disagree with will pale in comparison to how bad JB will make it. This isn't about voting for Rauner because I like Rauner, this is about keeping JB out. It sucks but we have only 2 options....1) move out of state ( can't right now ) or 2) do what ever has the best chance at keeping JB out. make's me sick but those are the choices. I would LOVE to vote 3rd party but that doesn't fall into the category of best way to keep JB out.

[Euler]

In my email today from ISRA

The fear of these Red Flag laws is that anti-gunners will maliciously use these laws to harass law abiding gun owners.

...

The Illinois State Rifle Association, in an abundance of caution, contacted organizations in other states that have Red Flag laws. In Washington State this process was used 51 times and our friends in that state have indicated they believe all these orders were justified and not done maliciously. In Indiana and Connecticut, a recent study of their Red Flag laws indicated these laws were associated with a reduction of suicides of 7.5% and 13.7% respectively.

 

While no law is perfect, many believe the law enacted in Illinois has the most protections in the Country for law abiding citizens. We will continue to monitor this legislation and offer ideas for tightening the language in a trailer bill when the General Assembly is back in session.

[JTHunter]

How many of you have ever sat in on local court proceedings? Have you ever watched and listened to what and how things are said before a judge? Even when BOTH sides have "legal representation", there are nuances that they use that will have you thinking "Say WHAT?!?" And, how many times have you watched a defendant be believed by the judge over a police officer's testimony??

 

Abuse??

 

Count on it !!

[markthesignguy]

In my email today from ISRA

The fear of these Red Flag laws is that anti-gunners will maliciously use these laws to harass law abiding gun owners.

...

The Illinois State Rifle Association, in an abundance of caution, contacted organizations in other states that have Red Flag laws. In Washington State this process was used 51 times and our friends in that state have indicated they believe all these orders were justified and not done maliciously. In Indiana and Connecticut, a recent study of their Red Flag laws indicated these laws were associated with a reduction of suicides of 7.5% and 13.7% respectively.

 

While no law is perfect, many believe the law enacted in Illinois has the most protections in the Country for law abiding citizens. We will continue to monitor this legislation and offer ideas for tightening the language in a trailer bill when the General Assembly is back in session.

 

 

We had better have one of our friends do the "tightening" trailer bill, because Willis has a challenger (Republican Anthony Airdo) and in 2016 I believe Airdo got 29% (20,390 to 8656) of the vote.

Election after election name recognition builds. Willis better be listening for footsteps behind her in the race. (14,523 votes is ~ 50:50 and 14523 - 8656 = 5867 votes needed).

[tkroenlein]

EoP’s and restraining orders are a reality. They do plenty to mess with your rights without any of the protections in this bill.

 

You can b**** about rights until your blue in the face but there are those of us who’ve had to deal with lunatics that understand why the anti’s feel the way they feel-because they were counting on laws to save them that couldn’t. The gun issue is inevitable, even though it helps nothing.

 

The pro gun lobby has needed to do this for a long time to make it as least impacting as possible.

[cybermgk]

How many of you have ever sat in on local court proceedings? Have you ever watched and listened to what and how things are said before a judge? Even when BOTH sides have "legal representation", there are nuances that they use that will have you thinking "Say WHAT?!?" And, how many times have you watched a defendant be believed by the judge over a police officer's testimony??

 

Abuse??

 

Count on it !!

I am getting REAL tired of all the complaining like the above (not just yours, but many). Where were you when we were fighting this to begin with?

 

Bottom line. many of us fought this bill, and ones like it, from the get go. I don't remember seeing some of the loudest voices making comments like the above joining in that fight. But, that is neither here nor there. The BOTTOM LINE was a red flag bill was going to pass. It passed in veto proof numbers, a bill was going to become a law, SPECIALLY in this state. LESS blue states were, have and are passing similar. THAT is reality. The time for this energy was then, fighting it in Committee, on the votes.

 

Now, once it was obvious to anyone with more than 2 brain cells to rub together that they were going to pass a red flag bill in Illinois, the effort was spent making it as least onerous as possible. And frankly Molly et al did a legion job of doing that, What got passed here in Illinois is orders of magnitude better than any other red flag law out there INCLUDING in red states.

 

There was NO way the opposition was going to allow a non emergency, i.e. ex parte aspect to the law. No way. It wasn't going to happen. Again, the only option was to fight to insure a speedy actual hearing, ability to hand guns to a friend or family member, only confiscation of foid ccl NOT suspension, etc. In other words, make it as least onerous as possible..

 

Is it going to be abused? Quite probably. But, where was everyone crying about that, when the fight above was going? AND, through the efforts of Molly et al working on this bill, the ability to abuse, consequences if abused, and minimizing the impact to your guns and rights (just allowing you to hand them over to a friend or family member and NOT be seized is HUGE).

 

And when it IS abused, that is when we fight it in the courts, perhaps even get it thown out in part, or whole as unconstitutional.

 

But, make no mistake, there was no way a red flag bill was not going to be passed, in this state, in this climate. And, this bill compared to all the others out there is a win. But, in this state, it

s a huge win compared to what other anti states like Illinois passed.

[Euler]

Now, once it was obvious to anyone with more than 2 brain cells to rub together that they were going to pass a red flag bill in Illinois, the effort was spent making it as least onerous as possible. And frankly Molly et al did a legion job of doing that, What got passed here in Illinois is orders of magnitude better than any other red flag law out there INCLUDING in red states.

I'll add that, although I enjoy good irony, when Parkland happened, there were lots of people claiming that the police should have just taken the shooter's guns, despite the fact that they had no legal mechanism to do so. Now people are complaining that there is a legal mechanism to deprive dangerous people of their means of danger. Truthfully, I haven't been keeping score to be able to tell if there's any overlap in the two sets of complainers. Some irony may be too great even for me to enjoy.

 

I certainly don't support a police state that can seize my (and by extension anyone's) firearms extra-judicially. If action needs to be taken, I want it done in a targeted manner against specific dangerous people, not as a blanket ban or seizure program. This bill provides for a way for people who are not the police to gain control over their own safety when threatened, because, as we should all know, the police are not going to save you. I also want civil liberty protections that put the burden of proof on the petitioner. That's pretty much what we got.

 

The anti-2As will still argue that the only way anyone can be safe is if all guns are erased from existence throughout the world. As of January 1 in Illinois, they'll have one less leg to stand on, because, if someone is demonstrably a danger, there will be a less extreme path to safety.

[cybermgk]

 

.

The anti-2As will still argue that the only way anyone can be safe is if all guns are erased from existence throughout the world. As of January 1 in Illinois, they'll have one less leg to stand on, because, if someone is demonstrably a danger, there will be a less extreme path to safety.

 

I don't think that last point can be emphasized enough. As you said, this is much better than classes of gun bans, etc. As ripe for abuse as these kinds of laws are, at least they start to aim at the real fundamental issue, the person who would kill, and not blanket bans on the tool, the guns. Does it do a damn thing for the 97% majority of gun homicides, gang/drug related? No. And in reality, instead of just making it easier to jail, those that are potential killers/dangers/mentally unstable, (as some wanted), which would outright confiscate the accused's firearms extra-judicially, this allows an out. Via this law, the accused can still have his guns held by a family member, friend and NOT confiscated by the state, even if the state determines mental evals, or jailing charges should be brought.

 

And, no I really, really, really dislike that a law like this exists. But, as you say, we CAN use this in future argument against the Antis attempts. NOW, if they could only be convinced to go after stopping 'catch and release' effective practices for criminals caught with stolen, illegal or similar status guns. Might actually be able to really stop gun violence.

[Hap]

In the Supreme Court as it is now shaping up, gun feature bans will be a pretty hard sell and the emphasis will shift to restrictions on who can possess firearms, where they can be possessed (i.e. carried), and circumstances under which they may be purchased. Make no mistake, there will be a lot of legislation in these areas, a lot of circuit splits, and, eventually, a very few SCOTUS edicts attempting but mostly failing to shed a little light on the matter. Future legislative battles will look a lot like the one over HB2354 and future court battles will look a lot like any which follow from questionable enforcement of this law. Whatever you think of HB2354 and how it was formed, get ready for a lot more of this sort of stuff, in IL and elsewhere.

 

At least we won't have to keep debating whether that shoulder thing that goes up really does turn a hunting rifle into a weapon of war.

[MrOwl]

 

 

I could care less what a two bit lawyer says. There is a reason garbage like this goes to court to court to court until the supreme court has to make a final ruling.

You should excuse yourself from this discussion. You have lost any and all credibility now.

 

I think people on here is upset because the General Assembly has a history of 'never being satisfied' with any legislation they make;

An example:

1 Chicago begs Springfield for money for public transportation and schools

2 Springfield gives it to Chicago

3 Chicago wastes it

4 Chicago demands more money for the same thing

When Chicago realizes that this plan doesn't reduce gang-related crime (let's face it, law-abiding citizens in Illinois is NOT committing school shootings!), they're going to want to make this law stricter, claiming 'common sense' additions to it

[JTHunter]

Cybermgk - having to deal with the likes of Eddie Lee Jackson and his "replacement", LaToya Greenwood, as a "rep.", and Claybourne as a senator, it was a forgone conclusion that they would do NOTHING to help us, despite multiple calls and letters to their offices. The same messages were sent to Rauner and this is what we got.

Granted, it could have been worse, like the laws in so many other states. What happens this November is one of the things that has me worried. It is like this clip from "Empire Strikes Back" where Luke tells Yoda he is not afraid (last 18 seconds). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOoS9k0jPQI

This law leaves me with the same reaction.

[Molly B.]

 

 

I could care less what a two bit lawyer says. There is a reason garbage like this goes to court to court to court until the supreme court has to make a final ruling.

You should excuse yourself from this discussion. You have lost any and all credibility now.

I think people on here is upset because the General Assembly has a history of 'never being satisfied' with any legislation they make;

An example:

1 Chicago begs Springfield for money for public transportation and schools

2 Springfield gives it to Chicago

3 Chicago wastes it

4 Chicago demands more money for the same thing

When Chicago realizes that this plan doesn't reduce gang-related crime (let's face it, law-abiding citizens in Illinois is NOT committing school shootings!), they're going to want to make this law stricter, claiming 'common sense' additions to it

They will never be satisfied. The anti-freedom side will always be pushing for more restrictions. The fight goes on everyday. The real frightening part is if the governorship changes adminstration, we go back to their side only needing a simple majority. Every bad thing they proposed this session will be rubber stamped.

[2A4Cook]

The worst part is that many of those Democratic lawmakers do not believe in this crap but are scared to death of the vocal, crazy left-wing of their party.

[crufflesmuth]

Realistically, the best thing for long-term gun rights in Illinois would be

 

1) re-electing Rauner

 

2) building a pro-gun presence in the NW Suburbs (which is the Achilles Heel of Cook County)

 

3) People need to get realistic, you're not going to have Indiana-style government in Illinois until,

 

a) Mike Madigan passes away

There is a built up political structure to take on Chicago and Chicago allied pols

 

4) Stop dying on the proverbial hill of abortion. The reason Democrats win in this state is primarily because they stick together, even if they disagree on various issues.

If you want to win, you've got to look at the bigger picture and understand how to out-maneuver the other side.

 

5) Anyone that will not vote for Rauner is voting for gun-control and giving Chicago full control of the state, even if in appearance only.

 

There is a lot we can disagree on, but stopping JB should be something that unites us all.

[DD123]

Realistically, the best thing for long-term gun rights in Illinois would be

 

1) re-electing Rauner

 

2) building a pro-gun presence in the NW Suburbs (which is the Achilles Heel of Cook County)

 

3) People need to get realistic, you're not going to have Indiana-style government in Illinois until,

 

a) Mike Madigan passes away

There is a built up political structure to take on Chicago and Chicago allied pols

 

4) Stop dying on the proverbial hill of abortion. The reason Democrats win in this state is primarily because they stick together, even if they disagree on various issues.

If you want to win, you've got to look at the bigger picture and understand how to out-maneuver the other side.

 

5) Anyone that will not vote for Rauner is voting for gun-control and giving Chicago full control of the state, even if in appearance only.

 

There is a lot we can disagree on, but stopping JB should be something that unites us all.

+1

 

I've left a few Illinois gun groups on FB because the members don't see the big picture.

 

They believe that if they scream "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" loud enough, that the left is suddenly going to listen.

 

"Well Rauner.....abortion....blah blah..."

 

"Well Rauner.....RINO....blah blah...."

 

"Well Rauner....not pro gun enough....blah blah..."

 

If the above describes anyone reading this, open your eyes. Rauner isn't perfect, but we're in a blue state, that isn't even turning remotely red. Rauner MUST WIN. This state will never start turning slightly red when we bicker over our own single issues and don't vote for the candidate with the best chance of winning.

 

As a libertarian, I hate to say this, but a vote for anyone other than Rauner is voting for JB. If you stay home, that's a vote for JB.

 

With Trump in the WH and all of the hoopla from the left surrounding him, we're already in a losing position in a blue state. We need numbers to get out and vote for Rauner.

 

JB is at a slight disadvantage because he's pushing that progressive income tax. Raising taxes is a loser. A candidate supporting raising taxes is a loser. Get out and vote for Rauner. We have a decent chance of winning if everyone gets out, votes, and gets Rauner the W. While I like Kash a lot, the only votes he's taking are from Rauner. I don't know one left leaning person that even knows who he is.....he only appeals to right leaning people. That other clown, he's in place to do just that....siphon votes away from Rauner. Don't fall for it.....we need Rauner in goal to block all the BS the anti's have for us.

[kevinmcc]

All of you anti-Rauner folks read this VERY carefully. This is some MDA leaders, along with Willis and Morrison. They are never going to stop. Knock off the crying and do your duty, vote, and halt this stuff

 

http://i.imgur.com/uDVzGx9.jpg

Of course they are not going to stop. These people pushing this agenda are sheep. This legislation was carefully designed to cause more death and chaos, then marketed as legislation that will save lives. When the time comes and someone uses this legislation then is later killed or shot, they will push for more gun control. Guns are not the threat, people are the threat. They want to pretend tools are threats and not deal with the people so they can demand more control, and I don't mean gun control, but socialist authoritarian rule.

[wig]

I actually came over here just to add my $0.02 to the conversation that appears to be happening already because of the article on Capitol Fax saying the election is officially shifting to the left. So thanks to those that get it up above.

 

Sometimes, compromise is required. Don't agree on abortions and some of these new legislations... best get used to even more of that if you don't vote Rauner. Period. Tin foil hat time - I suspect that the other players in the gov race might have been brought in by the left. Encouraged to run just to dilute the vote for Rauner. As someone above stated, the dems stick together - they won't sway, they'll be out in droves because of the federal makeup and their desire to tilt those scales to the dem side. As much as they care about Illinois, they care more about shackling Trump in the houses.

 

So don't skip voting.

 

Don't vote for any non-R candidates.

 

And for the sake of all of us "TWOs" only vote Rauner on the governor ticket.

 

If we don't stick together and follow this recipe, we are doomed. Many of us cannot leave the occupied state of Illinois and if we do not follow this recipe, we are going to end up making California look like a wild west shooting state.

 

And if you really look at the RINO like dilution of Rauner's policies - did you consider he is trying to pick up some of the left's voters? Someone did the math and knew he'd lose hard-core right wingers, but probably at the benefit of picking up more left leaning centers. I'd bet it's a calculated risk/decision. Not policy belief.

 

So as the pretty ice cartoon says - let it go.

[kevinmcc]

Sometimes, compromise is required.

Never ever comprise when your rights, liberty, and secure are in jeopardy!

[cybermgk]

 

Realistically, the best thing for long-term gun rights in Illinois would be

 

1) re-electing Rauner

 

2) building a pro-gun presence in the NW Suburbs (which is the Achilles Heel of Cook County)

 

3) People need to get realistic, you're not going to have Indiana-style government in Illinois until,

 

a) Mike Madigan passes away

There is a built up political structure to take on Chicago and Chicago allied pols

 

4) Stop dying on the proverbial hill of abortion. The reason Democrats win in this state is primarily because they stick together, even if they disagree on various issues.

If you want to win, you've got to look at the bigger picture and understand how to out-maneuver the other side.

 

5) Anyone that will not vote for Rauner is voting for gun-control and giving Chicago full control of the state, even if in appearance only.

 

There is a lot we can disagree on, but stopping JB should be something that unites us all.

+1

 

I've left a few Illinois gun groups on FB because the members don't see the big picture.

 

They believe that if they scream "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" loud enough, that the left is suddenly going to listen.

 

"Well Rauner.....abortion....blah blah..."

 

"Well Rauner.....RINO....blah blah...."

 

"Well Rauner....not pro gun enough....blah blah..."

 

If the above describes anyone reading this, open your eyes. Rauner isn't perfect, but we're in a blue state, that isn't even turning remotely red. Rauner MUST WIN. This state will never start turning slightly red when we bicker over our own single issues and don't vote for the candidate with the best chance of winning.

 

As a libertarian, I hate to say this, but a vote for anyone other than Rauner is voting for JB. If you stay home, that's a vote for JB.

 

With Trump in the WH and all of the hoopla from the left surrounding him, we're already in a losing position in a blue state. We need numbers to get out and vote for Rauner.

 

JB is at a slight disadvantage because he's pushing that progressive income tax. Raising taxes is a loser. A candidate supporting raising taxes is a loser. Get out and vote for Rauner. We have a decent chance of winning if everyone gets out, votes, and gets Rauner the W. While I like Kash a lot, the only votes he's taking are from Rauner. I don't know one left leaning person that even knows who he is.....he only appeals to right leaning people. That other clown, he's in place to do just that....siphon votes away from Rauner. Don't fall for it.....we need Rauner in goal to block all the BS the anti's have for us.

 

+1,000,000

[Illini2A312]

+1

 

I've left a few Illinois gun groups on FB because the members don't see the big picture.

 

They believe that if they scream "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" loud enough, that the left is suddenly going to listen.

 

"Well Rauner.....abortion....blah blah..."

 

"Well Rauner.....RINO....blah blah...."

 

"Well Rauner....not pro gun enough....blah blah..."

 

If the above describes anyone reading this, open your eyes. Rauner isn't perfect, but we're in a blue state, that isn't even turning remotely red. Rauner MUST WIN. This state will never start turning slightly red when we bicker over our own single issues and don't vote for the candidate with the best chance of winning.

 

As a libertarian, I hate to say this, but a vote for anyone other than Rauner is voting for JB. If you stay home, that's a vote for JB.

 

With Trump in the WH and all of the hoopla from the left surrounding him, we're already in a losing position in a blue state. We need numbers to get out and vote for Rauner.

 

JB is at a slight disadvantage because he's pushing that progressive income tax. Raising taxes is a loser. A candidate supporting raising taxes is a loser. Get out and vote for Rauner. We have a decent chance of winning if everyone gets out, votes, and gets Rauner the W. While I like Kash a lot, the only votes he's taking are from Rauner. I don't know one left leaning person that even knows who he is.....he only appeals to right leaning people. That other clown, he's in place to do just that....siphon votes away from Rauner. Don't fall for it.....we need Rauner in goal to block all the BS the anti's have for us.

 

Sigh, I know what you mean. I really wish I could've voted for Kash as well and it pains me to have my hand forced otherwise because JB is just that bad (I try to think of it as "voting against JB" instead).

 

One of the things that really gets me about JB is that he claims the progressive tax will help those with low income, yet bills like the "FRIENDLY" act (HB3522) would actually RAISE income taxes on those making as little as $7500 a year (and as little as $15000 a year would be considered "middle class" for tax purposes as I read it). It seems cruel to me to claim this is meant to help people making that little yet will actually take more of their money and line peoples' pockets with it.

[BigJim]

One of the things that really gets me about JB is that he claims the progressive tax will help those with low income, yet bills like the "FRIENDLY" act (HB3522) would actually RAISE income taxes on those making as little as $7500 a year (and as little as $15000 a year would be considered "middle class" for tax purposes as I read it). It seems cruel to me to claim this is meant to help people making that little yet will actually take more of their money and line peoples' pockets with it.

 

If we're going to have an income tax everyone with an income should have to pay it. The idea that someone makes less then some randomly chosen number doesn't have to pay taxes or worse yet gets a refund for something they didn't pay in the first place just honks me off. Either we all pay income tax or none of us pay income tax. Personally I vote for we don't pay income tax.

[markthesignguy]

One of the things that really gets me about JB is that he claims the progressive tax will help those with low income,

yet bills like the "FRIENDLY" act (HB3522) would actually RAISE income taxes on those making as little as $7500 a year

(and as little as $15000 a year would be considered "middle class" for tax purposes as I read it).

It seems cruel to me to claim this is meant to help people making that little yet will actually take more of their money

and line peoples' pockets with it.

There are a LOT more people with SOME income than there are people with BIG income.

And the people with SOME income are TRAPPED in Illinois because they cannot accumulate enough of the cost of moving.

A captive flock to shear at will.

[JTHunter]

One of the things that really gets me about JB is that he claims the progressive tax will help those with low income,

yet bills like the "FRIENDLY" act (HB3522) would actually RAISE income taxes on those making as little as $7500 a year

(and as little as $15000 a year would be considered "middle class" for tax purposes as I read it).

It seems cruel to me to claim this is meant to help people making that little yet will actually take more of their money

and line peoples' pockets with it.

There are a LOT more people with SOME income than there are people with BIG income.

And the people with SOME income are TRAPPED in Illinois because they cannot accumulate enough of the cost of moving.

A captive flock to shear at will.

 

Partially correct Mark. Some of us are stuck here caring for an aging parent(s) who refuse to move out of their house of decades.

Having checked out the taxes of various states, AZ doesn't tax SS benefits while WY taxes neither benefits or income. Also, both are OC states with WY being for "residents only". AZ sales taxes are quite high as well, #11 compared to WY at #44 (IL is #7) as of a year ago.

All told, northern AZ has a more hospitable climate than WY too.