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Ghost Gun Ban Signed Into Law Today, Illinois


Louie25
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On 6/13/2022 at 3:22 PM, dcar_roll said:

Still trying to make sense of this as to how it works if you milled out the receiver yourself for your AR build. Do you need to get it serialized to be legal ?

The simple answer to that is yes. 

I suspect Illinois is going to significantly increase the number of potential criminals (if they could find them) in the state. 

I'm not sure how many FFL's are going to line up to do this as well, can they force them? I think not existing and then maybe lawsuits.  IDK not a ffl since Jimmy screwed us. 

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On 6/14/2022 at 5:02 PM, Molly B. said:



Oh grasshopper, you have been around long enough now to know those things take time . . .

In this state, yes. In other states, as soon as the law is signed there’s usually lawsuits. Case and point. WA’s mag sale ban.....

 

 

Regarding the goofy “ghost gun” law here, plenty to use to dismantle it based off of a ruling in Nevada in which the courts there struck down their law

https://www.scribd.com/document/546715831/AB286-District-Court-rules-in-favor-of-Polymer80

Edited by steveTA84
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On 6/14/2022 at 8:12 AM, SiliconSorcerer said:

The simple answer to that is yes. 

I suspect Illinois is going to significantly increase the number of potential criminals (if they could find them) in the state. 

I'm not sure how many FFL's are going to line up to do this as well, can they force them? I think not existing and then maybe lawsuits.  IDK not a ffl since Jimmy screwed us. 

The irony though is that person to person transactions still don't have to go through FFL til 2023 or 2024 (I forget which). So my unserialized 80, finished or not, could be sold to someone else with a simple FOID check and other than that no one is the wiser. Conceivably an unserialized yet complete lower could go through multiple hands before it ever sees a FFL.

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On 6/23/2022 at 8:10 PM, guzzimike66 said:

The irony though is that person to person transactions still don't have to go through FFL til 2023 or 2024 (I forget which). So my unserialized 80, finished or not, could be sold to someone else with a simple FOID check and other than that no one is the wiser. Conceivably an unserialized yet complete lower could go through multiple hands before it ever sees a FFL.

You are completely wrong about this.  You need to read HB4383 which was signed into law on 5/18/22.

 

As of that date it is illegal to offer for sale or sell an unserialized receiver. Doesn't matter whether it's an 80% or finished receiver.

 

The penalty is a class 4 felony.  

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On 6/23/2022 at 8:36 PM, THE KING said:

You are completely wrong about this.  You need to read HB4383 which was signed into law on 5/18/22.

 

As of that date it is illegal to offer for sale or sell an unserialized receiver. Doesn't matter whether it's an 80% or finished receiver.

 

The penalty is a class 4 felony.  

You're assuming all 80 holders know the Illinois law -  based on what I''ve seen on FB groups a surprising number don't - and won't violate it. If there is no serial there's no paper trail, and what stops someone moving all their unfinished 80s to a free state and selling them from there? If I have a cottage in Wisconsin and sell 80s from there is that a violation of Illinois law? What if I had 80s shipped there to begin with even though I'm an Illinois resident and then sold off whatever I didn't complete? Not trying to challenge anyone but the reality is that the PMF serialization BS at both the state & Fed level won't do a darn thing. What if you lived in Wisconsin, built an 80 there and for whatever reason serialized it for your own purposes and then moved to Illinois in the fall. Is the now Illinois resident supposed to take it and get reserialized? If so, on things like the P80 Glock clones there is only so much room on the marking plate that can't be removed without destroying the frame. California has it's own 80 marking requirements that don't align with what Illinois requires... is that 80 build in violation? And on and on....

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After todays Supreme Court ruling, I don't see how this law can stand at all, there is absolutely zero historical context banning unserialized and/or homebuilt firearms, in fact history supports the opposite that home build firearms need not be serialized.

 

In fact one could argue that even current Federal law mandating production arms being serialized is too recent of a law to comply with the new court ruling issued today, as the court today implied in the ruling that the historical context is either 1791 for "2nd meaning" or 1868 for "14th meaning" putting the proliferation of laws that came later in the 20th century out of review for historical context.

 

If the ruling is to be taken as implied by the justices, most if not all of the NFA could be argued as unconstitutional, as it's not supported in historical context until recently and that recently doesn't not meet the definition of historical context that the justices spoke of in the ruling.

Edited by Flynn
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On 6/23/2022 at 8:53 PM, guzzimike66 said:

You're assuming all 80 holders know the Illinois law -  based on what I''ve seen on FB groups a surprising number don't - and won't violate it. If there is no serial there's no paper trail, and what stops someone moving all their unfinished 80s to a free state and selling them from there? If I have a cottage in Wisconsin and sell 80s from there is that a violation of Illinois law? What if I had 80s shipped there to begin with even though I'm an Illinois resident and then sold off whatever I didn't complete? Not trying to challenge anyone but the reality is that the PMF serialization BS at both the state & Fed level won't do a darn thing. What if you lived in Wisconsin, built an 80 there and for whatever reason serialized it for your own purposes and then moved to Illinois in the fall. Is the now Illinois resident supposed to take it and get reserialized? If so, on things like the P80 Glock clones there is only so much room on the marking plate that can't be removed without destroying the frame. California has it's own 80 marking requirements that don't align with what Illinois requires... is that 80 build in violation? And on and on....

 

Unless you have a license to manufacture firearms, I think selling completed un-serialized 80s anywhere is a violation of Federal law.

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On 6/23/2022 at 11:34 PM, soundguy said:

Unless you have a license to manufacture firearms, I think selling completed un-serialized 80s anywhere is a violation of Federal law.

 

Only if you are in the business of making them for sale, nothing under Federal Law prohibits you from selling an unserialized home built firearm that you didn't build with the intent to sell but later decided to sell.

 

Plus guzzimike66 said "what stops someone moving all their unfinished 80s to a free state and selling them from there?" an unfinished 80 is not a firearm, no violation of Federal Law selling them without a serial in another state.

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Glad the closest gun store to me is not taking part in this.

 

Will Maxon Shooters Gunsmithing Department serialize PMF’s?

No.  We are not equipped to provide this service.  There are very specific requirements, both physical and legal with respect to serializing firearms under Federal law, and we simply do not have the expertise nor the equipment to perform this service.

 

https://www.maxonshooters.com/blog/illinois-ghost-gun-ban-faqs?hsLang=en

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On 6/28/2022 at 12:14 PM, spiderk said:

Say you bought an 80% at some point before this law passed, and also serialized it yourself in that time obviously being unable to conform to their format requirements since it didn't exist yet. How could they argue against that in court? 

That's been my question all along at both the state and federal level. If I bought a P80 frame 5 years ago - no clue how long they've actually been available - and serialized it for my own purposes what is one supposed to do now? What is an FFL supposed to do if it comes into their shop? Destroy it?

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On 7/4/2022 at 9:00 AM, richp said:

Could be off here, but when an FFL serializes it, they have it in a record that the ISP can access. Self serialization doesn't give them that info.

 

The whole thing is so wrong...


correct, but does that mean that all self serialized/“incorrectly” serialized frames are suddenly illegal? And the only recourse for someone (who wants to stay legal) with this in their possession is to destroy it? How is that fair? 

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On 7/4/2022 at 11:45 AM, spiderk said:


correct, but does that mean that all self serialized/“incorrectly” serialized frames are suddenly illegal? And the only recourse for someone (who wants to stay legal) with this in their possession is to destroy it? How is that fair? 

I'm sure there's room for another number on it if your so willing. 

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On 7/4/2022 at 11:05 AM, SiliconSorcerer said:

I'm sure there's room for another number on it if your so willing. 


realistically speaking it would be highly unlikely someone in this situation would have accidentally left enough room on it for a few reasons.

 

-the owner would have had to make the serial a single digit or maybe 2 at most

-the number itself would have had to be on the far left or right edge in order to leave room

-the serial requirements as outlined by ISP in order to be valid, must include additional digits that is associated with the FFL. This makes these serials longer than ones on conventionally manufactured guns. 

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On 7/4/2022 at 1:23 PM, spiderk said:


realistically speaking it would be highly unlikely someone in this situation would have accidentally left enough room on it for a few reasons.

 

-the owner would have had to make the serial a single digit or maybe 2 at most

-the number itself would have had to be on the far left or right edge in order to leave room

-the serial requirements as outlined by ISP in order to be valid, must include additional digits that is associated with the FFL. This makes these serials longer than ones on conventionally manufactured guns. 

Or they just put it on the other side. 

I just don't get it and AR has lots of space on it.  Unless there's a it's got to be right here and there is one already. 

 

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On 7/4/2022 at 11:34 AM, SiliconSorcerer said:

Or they just put it on the other side. 

I just don't get it and AR has lots of space on it.  Unless there's a it's got to be right here and there is one already. 

 


with P80 Glocks you just get a 1x0.25” plate on the underside of the guide rod area. That was what I was referring to. I imagine there are similar metal plates for this purpose on the polymer 80% AR lowers 

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On 7/4/2022 at 1:34 PM, SiliconSorcerer said:

Or they just put it on the other side. 

I just don't get it and AR has lots of space on it.  Unless there's a it's got to be right here and there is one already. 

 

 

In this section of HB4383 (https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/publicacts/fulltext.asp?Name=102-0889) it says "undetectable firearms", aka polymer type, have to have serial on a steel plaque (P80 frame in pic below, lower right). Pistol P80s & the like have one embedded in the dust cover but it's not very big. SIG P320 fcu (yes there are 80% SIGs too) available area is even smaller although the whole fcu is steel. If one has already serialized their 80 frame/receiver there's no room for more. If it's a metal gun like 1911 or AR series there's room to put wherever desired but what happens when a firearm now has 2 serial #s? If an individual obliterated an existing self applied serial to then apply one conforming to state/fed "ghost gun" requirements does that not open a huge can of worms?

CA-AB-857-Engraving.jpg

 

 (f) Unserialized unfinished frames or receivers and
unserialized firearms serialized pursuant to this Section
shall be serialized in compliance with all of the following:
 

        (1) An unserialized unfinished frame or receiver and
    unserialized firearm shall be serialized by a federally
    licensed firearms dealer or other federal licensee
    authorized to provide marking services with the licensee's
    abbreviated federal firearms license number as a prefix
    (which is the first 3 and last 5 digits) followed by a
    hyphen, and then followed by a number as a suffix, such as
    12345678-(number). The serial number or numbers must be
    placed in a manner that accords with the requirements
    under federal law for affixing serial numbers to firearms,
    including the requirements that the serial number or
    numbers be at the minimum size and depth, and not
    susceptible to being readily obliterated, altered, or
    removed, and the licensee must retain records that accord
    with the requirements under federal law in the case of the
    sale of a firearm. The imprinting of any serial number
    upon a undetectable firearm must be done on a steel plaque
    in compliance with 18 U.S.C. 922(p).

 

I skimmed through 18 U.S.C. 922(p) (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922) and could find no reference to marking on a steel plaque whatsoever, though it's possible I missed it. There is a section talking about a "Security Exemplar" made of 17-4 stainless that is used for calibrating detectors, and 2 references to the word "serial" ("has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered...").  27 CFR 478.92 addresses marking requirements re:size, depth, etc. but also doesn't address the metal plate thing for "undetectable" firearms. Is the metal plate thing an ATF ruling?


I wonder that if a serial is already there that the HB4383 marking doesn't come into play. Searching the text of the law the words "unfinished frame" is used 18 times while the word "finished" is only used once in this section with regards to logging in the firearm. I can see how it could be interpreted that as long as the gun is marked per ATF you are good to go, but I'm not a lawyer and this is just my interpretation. 


       (3) Every federally licensed firearms dealer or other
    federal licensee that engraves, casts, stamps, or
    otherwise conspicuously and permanently places a unique
    serial number pursuant to this Section shall record it at
    the time of every transaction involving the transfer of a
    firearm, rifle, shotgun, finished frame or receiver, or
    unfinished frame or receiver that has been so marked in
    compliance with the federal guidelines set forth in 27 CFR
    478.124.

 

These are my mental rambling and interpretations so don't take anything as a guide for what you might do.

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On 7/4/2022 at 2:57 PM, guzzimike66 said:

If an individual obliterated an existing self applied serial to then apply one conforming to state/fed "ghost gun" requirements does that not open a huge can of worms?

 

Don't obliterate the existing one, just stamp the new one like importers and parts kit builders do.

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