guzzimike66

In this section of HB4383 (https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/publicacts/fulltext.asp?Name=102-0889) it says "undetectable firearms", aka polymer type, have to have serial on a steel plaque (P80 frame in pic below, lower right). Pistol P80s & the like have one embedded in the dust cover but it's not very big. SIG P320 fcu (yes there are 80% SIGs too) available area is even smaller although the whole fcu is steel. If one has already serialized their 80 frame/receiver there's no room for more. If it's a metal gun like 1911 or AR series there's room to put wherever desired but what happens when a firearm now has 2 serial #s? If an individual obliterated an existing self applied serial to then apply one conforming to state/fed "ghost gun" requirements does that not open a huge can of worms? (f) Unserialized unfinished frames or receivers and unserialized firearms serialized pursuant to this Section shall be serialized in compliance with all of the following: (1) An unserialized unfinished frame or receiver and unserialized firearm shall be serialized by a federally licensed firearms dealer or other federal licensee authorized to provide marking services with the licensee's abbreviated federal firearms license number as a prefix (which is the first 3 and last 5 digits) followed by a hyphen, and then followed by a number as a suffix, such as 12345678-(number). The serial number or numbers must be placed in a manner that accords with the requirements under federal law for affixing serial numbers to firearms, including the requirements that the serial number or numbers be at the minimum size and depth, and not susceptible to being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and the licensee must retain records that accord with the requirements under federal law in the case of the sale of a firearm. The imprinting of any serial number upon a undetectable firearm must be done on a steel plaque in compliance with 18 U.S.C. 922(p). I skimmed through 18 U.S.C. 922(p) (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922) and could find no reference to marking on a steel plaque whatsoever, though it's possible I missed it. There is a section talking about a "Security Exemplar" made of 17-4 stainless that is used for calibrating detectors, and 2 references to the word "serial" ("has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered..."). 27 CFR 478.92 addresses marking requirements re:size, depth, etc. but also doesn't address the metal plate thing for "undetectable" firearms. Is the metal plate thing an ATF ruling? I wonder that if a serial is already there that the HB4383 marking doesn't come into play. Searching the text of the law the words "unfinished frame" is used 18 times while the word "finished" is only used once in this section with regards to logging in the firearm. I can see how it could be interpreted that as long as the gun is marked per ATF you are good to go, but I'm not a lawyer and this is just my interpretation. (3) Every federally licensed firearms dealer or other federal licensee that engraves, casts, stamps, or otherwise conspicuously and permanently places a unique serial number pursuant to this Section shall record it at the time of every transaction involving the transfer of a firearm, rifle, shotgun, finished frame or receiver, or unfinished frame or receiver that has been so marked in compliance with the federal guidelines set forth in 27 CFR 478.124. These are my mental rambling and interpretations so don't take anything as a guide for what you might do.

That's been my question all along at both the state and federal level. If I bought a P80 frame 5 years ago - no clue how long they've actually been available - and serialized it for my own purposes what is one supposed to do now? What is an FFL supposed to do if it comes into their shop? Destroy it?

The IT folks may not have disabled that yet...

You're assuming all 80 holders know the Illinois law - based on what I''ve seen on FB groups a surprising number don't - and won't violate it. If there is no serial there's no paper trail, and what stops someone moving all their unfinished 80s to a free state and selling them from there? If I have a cottage in Wisconsin and sell 80s from there is that a violation of Illinois law? What if I had 80s shipped there to begin with even though I'm an Illinois resident and then sold off whatever I didn't complete? Not trying to challenge anyone but the reality is that the PMF serialization BS at both the state & Fed level won't do a darn thing. What if you lived in Wisconsin, built an 80 there and for whatever reason serialized it for your own purposes and then moved to Illinois in the fall. Is the now Illinois resident supposed to take it and get reserialized? If so, on things like the P80 Glock clones there is only so much room on the marking plate that can't be removed without destroying the frame. California has it's own 80 marking requirements that don't align with what Illinois requires... is that 80 build in violation? And on and on....

The irony though is that person to person transactions still don't have to go through FFL til 2023 or 2024 (I forget which). So my unserialized 80, finished or not, could be sold to someone else with a simple FOID check and other than that no one is the wiser. Conceivably an unserialized yet complete lower could go through multiple hands before it ever sees a FFL.

I have a hunch there will be a lot of self serialed builds with something like that. Unless I missed it reading through the legislation, until this morning there was no law against doing your own serial number should you be so inclined. There is nothing I read that addresses that very fact.

Or what if someone bought one from another state some guy built and no longer wants. As long as you're not "in the business of building" it's legal to sell self built arms according to ATF and the random serial takes them nowhere.

And yet they continue to ignore the fact that these individuals caught with them either have no FOID and/or are felons and in both cases can't have them legally in either case. But apparently little 15 year old Johnny with a "ghost gun" and a police record is the victim and would surely be helping old ladies across the street instead if they didn't exist.

Let the lawsuits begin... https://wgntv.com/news/wgn-news-now/new-illinois-law-restricting-ghost-guns-to-be-signed/

FYI.... even though HB4383 has not been signed into law yet by Gov Pritzker, companies are already restricting shipments of 80% lowers and jigs (although ironically not jig parts) to Illinois. 5D Tactical and 80% Arms are two that I am aware of. I reached out to them but have not heard back yet. MW

No surprise they passed it through.

Opponents are currently almost 10:1 against - 487 to 51

Do we know the password for the Blue Room stream? The audio on the ILGA page is not good.

Senate audio now playing

Done & I'm tuned into the Senate room 212 audio but not hearing anything.