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RTC Emergency Rules


Tvandermyde

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This is why I posted the other day about scanning copies of DD-214's or other documentation of previous training. Since the law specifies INSTRUCTORS as well as the ISP "accepting" previous training, it certainly seems that the ISP will shift that burden to the instructors because they can.

 

Let's take a look at this logically though. Will there be forged documents? Yes. There always will be. If you own a nightclub and an underage kid gets in with a really good fake ID, you aren't going to lose your license if you did your due diligence. We are not expected to be document experts. At the end of the day, I will cover myself by:

 

1) keeping a copy of the document I was provided by the applicant

2) not letting any student even get to the range who doesn't show proficiency in safe gun-handling in the classroom portion.

 

That's all I can do, and all i can be expected to do.

<cough cough cough> waiver <cough> indemnification <cough cough > cya <cough cough >

 

Excuse me, something came on all of a sudden. Must be allergies to the bull kaka from the ISP. Seriously though go back to the other thread where I was talking about waivers and indemnification. Not such a bad idea after all? Get copies of their certs, have them sign an agreement taking responsibility for falsified documents.

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This is why I posted the other day about scanning copies of DD-214's or other documentation of previous training. Since the law specifies INSTRUCTORS as well as the ISP "accepting" previous training, it certainly seems that the ISP will shift that burden to the instructors because they can.

 

Let's take a look at this logically though. Will there be forged documents? Yes. There always will be. If you own a nightclub and an underage kid gets in with a really good fake ID, you aren't going to lose your license if you did your due diligence. We are not expected to be document experts. At the end of the day, I will cover myself by:

 

1) keeping a copy of the document I was provided by the applicant

2) not letting any student even get to the range who doesn't show proficiency in safe gun-handling in the classroom portion.

 

That's all I can do, and all i can be expected to do.

Pretty much nailed it that's all we can do
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I really don't see how hunter safety could be construed to meet the requirement as presented in the emergency rules

I don't see why they can't just come out with yes and no answers, as we have been asking very specific questions. Nobody in government wants the liability and just wants to pass the buck to the instructors.
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OK, I have read this thing 2 or 3 times now. Under 1231.50, I have a couple of concerns. There are several contradictions.

 

Under B). The Certification form shall only be completed for those applicants who the Instructor trained in person for whom the Instructor can verify:

 

Under d). For those applicants who provided proof of up to 8 hours of training already completed toward the 16 hours training, the Instructor shall:

 

Under e). The Instructor may certify up to 8 hours of prior training,

 

Does anyone else see the contradictory statements in the above 3 highlighted areas from the Emergency Rules ????

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So does this look like NRA basic pistol will be counted?

 

 

As instructor per 1231.10 Definitions it specifically says National Rifle Association of America

 

It does not mention any course by name but it says at least 4 hours of In-person training and live fire so it seems to me NRA Basic Pistol instructor is good to go

I really don't see how hunter safety could be construed to meet the requirement as presented in the emergency rules

 

I was thinking this same thing... Hunter safety does not require live fire, the ISP does... What, I just read the EMERGENCY RULES top to bottom and did not see a requirement for the prior 8 hrs to have included live fire... Did I miss it?

 

I see they still have not defined "public storage" or the "4" rules for safe gun handling... (I assume they mean the NRA's 3 + always treat as if loaded...)

 

Applicants "must apply for a FCCL" I guess all of those out-of-state instructors are not facing even higher fees...

 

I think the ISP is insinuating that all approved instructors will have their "FCCL" by April 16th, 2014 - or else they will have a lot of Instructors to revoke!

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I also wonder if they will come out with the "Department approved cirriculum" which should be a list of courses that would apply so we know exactly what is acceptable or not !!

 

That would be under 1231.50 :cool: 1 and 2. Their words not mine !!

 

I would not hold your breath ...

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MANDATING 4 hours of range time is dangerous for both students as well as instructors. If the law only requires 30 rounds of live fire, there's NO REASON for 4 hours on the range. Review this document on lead contamination on the gun range.

 

http://www.utexas.edu/safety/ehs/msds/lead.html

 

Here's a footnote from the article.

This article is respectfully dedicated to the memory of ASLET member Sergeant Thomas Kelly, who died on Sept. 17, 1989. Sergeant Kelly died of acute respiratory failure after being exposed daily for two weeks to lead and associated gases on the firing range. It is the author's sincere hope that the information presented herein will contribute to preventing further such tragic losses.

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MANDATING 4 hours of range time is dangerous for both students as well as instructors. If the law only requires 30 rounds of live fire, there's NO REASON for 4 hours on the range. Review this document on lead contamination on the gun range.

 

http://www.utexas.ed.../msds/lead.html

 

Here's a footnote from the article.

 

This article is respectfully dedicated to the memory of ASLET member Sergeant Thomas Kelly, who died on Sept. 17, 1989. Sergeant Kelly died of acute respiratory failure after being exposed daily for two weeks to lead and associated gases on the firing range. It is the author's sincere hope that the information presented herein will contribute to preventing further such tragic losses.

You know what their answer will be?

 

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4002/4641858518_248bfeff14_o.jpg

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I see they still have not defined "public storage" or the "4" rules for safe gun handling... (I assume they mean the NRA's 3 + always treat as if loaded...)

 

I have to assume they are referring to Col. Cooper's rules as modified for the MFT:

 

1) All firearms are always loaded

2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not ready and willing to destroy

3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target

4) Be sure of your target and its surroundings

 

Although they also add

 

5) Never handle firearms under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

 

Applicants "must apply for a FCCL" I guess all of those out-of-state instructors are not facing even higher fees...

 

While I can understand them wanting you to have the credential you're instructing others for, it sure looks that way.

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MANDATING 4 hours of range time is dangerous for both students as well as instructors. If the law only requires 30 rounds of live fire, there's NO REASON for 4 hours on the range. Review this document on lead contamination on the gun range.

 

http://www.utexas.ed.../msds/lead.html

 

Here's a footnote from the article.

 

This article is respectfully dedicated to the memory of ASLET member Sergeant Thomas Kelly, who died on Sept. 17, 1989. Sergeant Kelly died of acute respiratory failure after being exposed daily for two weeks to lead and associated gases on the firing range. It is the author's sincere hope that the information presented herein will contribute to preventing further such tragic losses.

Hmmm... this is 23 years old. Haven't range ventilation standards been updated / standardized since then?

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MANDATING 4 hours of range time is dangerous for both students as well as instructors. If the law only requires 30 rounds of live fire, there's NO REASON for 4 hours on the range. Review this document on lead contamination on the gun range.

 

http://www.utexas.ed.../msds/lead.html

 

Here's a footnote from the article.

 

This article is respectfully dedicated to the memory of ASLET member Sergeant Thomas Kelly, who died on Sept. 17, 1989. Sergeant Kelly died of acute respiratory failure after being exposed daily for two weeks to lead and associated gases on the firing range. It is the author's sincere hope that the information presented herein will contribute to preventing further such tragic losses.

Hmmm... this is 23 years old. Haven't range ventilation standards been updated / standardized since then?

 

Only for ranges constructed in the past 23 years...right?

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I see they still have not defined "public storage" or the "4" rules for safe gun handling... (I assume they mean the NRA's 3 + always treat as if loaded...)

 

I have to assume they are referring to Col. Cooper's rules as modified for the MFT:

 

1) All firearms are always loaded

2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not ready and willing to destroy

3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target

4) Be sure of your target and its surroundings

 

Although they also add

 

5) Never handle firearms under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

 

Applicants "must apply for a FCCL" I guess all of those out-of-state instructors are not facing even higher fees...

 

While I can understand them wanting you to have the credential you're instructing others for, it sure looks that way.

 

Thanks for posting those rules. Those are not the NRA's 3 ALWAYS rules ... Safe direction, finger off trigger, keep unloaded until ready to use

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While standards may have been updated, it's my understanding that grandfathered ranges were exempt from meeting the new standards. Range ventilation is not my area of expertise, and it shouldn't have to be. But if I and my instructors are required to be in the range for 4 hours every other day, I'll become an expert in it to keep us and our students safe.
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From reading the document, it is advantageous to submit 2 requests for approval - one as an 8 hour curriculum and the 2nd, as a full 16 hour curriculum.

1) A 16 hour training course must, at a minimum, cover the following topics:

A) Firearms Safety - a minimum of 2 classroom hours;

B ) Basic Principles of Marksmanship - a minimum 01'3 classroom and range hours;

C) Care, Cleaning, Loading and Unloading of a Concealable Firearm - a minimum of 3 classroom hours;

D) All Applicable State and Federal Laws Relating to the Ownership, Storage, Carry and Transportation of a Firearm - a minimum of 4 classroom hours; and

E) Weapons Handling - a minimum of 4 range hours.

 

2) An 8 hour training course must, at a minimum, cover the following topics:

A) All Applicable State and Federal Laws Relating to the Ownership, Storage, Carry and Transportation of a Firearm - a minimum of 4 classroom hours; and

B ) Weapons Handling - a minimum of 4 range hours.

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From reading the document, it is advantageous to submit 2 requests for approval - one as an 8 hour curriculum and the 2nd, as a full 16 hour curriculum.

1) A 16 hour training course must, at a minimum, cover the following topics:

A) Firearms Safety - a minimum of 2 classroom hours;

B ) Basic Principles of Marksmanship - a minimum 01'3 classroom and range hours;

C) Care, Cleaning, Loading and Unloading of a Concealable Firearm - a minimum of 3 classroom hours;

D) All Applicable State and Federal Laws Relating to the Ownership, Storage, Carry and Transportation of a Firearm - a minimum of 4 classroom hours; and

E) Weapons Handling - a minimum of 4 range hours.

 

2) An 8 hour training course must, at a minimum, cover the following topics:

A) All Applicable State and Federal Laws Relating to the Ownership, Storage, Carry and Transportation of a Firearm - a minimum of 4 classroom hours; and

B ) Weapons Handling - a minimum of 4 range hours.

 

Not to be sarcastic, but how do you plan on doing that ??

 

There is only one check box next to the 16 / 8 hour course cirriculum.

 

You can only check that box or the 3 hour course box. :hmm:

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I really don't see how hunter safety could be construed to meet the requirement as presented in the emergency rules

Me either, has me concerned. If they just left the word "concealable firearm" out we would be fine.

 

Am I missing something?

 

The hunters course covers A,B, & C for a total of 8 hours. Safety, marksmanship & firearm care.

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I really don't see how hunter safety could be construed to meet the requirement as presented in the emergency rules

Me either, has me concerned. If they just left the word "concealable firearm" out we would be fine.

 

Am I missing something?

 

The hunters course covers A,B, & C for a total of 8 hours. Safety, marksmanship & firearm care.

Not with a concealable firearm.

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It would be interesting to see what the range training capacity is for IL or for any particular region in IL. If each student must spend 4 hours on the range and assuming ranges stay open for the current operations hours, then their capacity in student-hours can be measured. So if a range is open for 12 hours/day and can accomodate 12 students at a time that would give them a capacity of 12 students/hour * 12 hours/day / 4 hours/class = 36 students/day. If they are open for 6 days/week that is 216 students/week.

 

I'd be interested in seeing what that amounted to regionally but not enough to do the analysis. My gut says, not enough range hours to accomodate 300,000 applicants...

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