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RTC Emergency Rules


Tvandermyde

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This is why I posted the other day about scanning copies of DD-214's or other documentation of previous training. Since the law specifies INSTRUCTORS as well as the ISP "accepting" previous training, it certainly seems that the ISP will shift that burden to the instructors because they can.

 

Let's take a look at this logically though. Will there be forged documents? Yes. There always will be. If you own a nightclub and an underage kid gets in with a really good fake ID, you aren't going to lose your license if you did your due diligence. We are not expected to be document experts. At the end of the day, I will cover myself by:

 

1) keeping a copy of the document I was provided by the applicant

2) not letting any student even get to the range who doesn't show proficiency in safe gun-handling in the classroom portion.

 

That's all I can do, and all i can be expected to do.

 

no one is copying my DD-214. Too much info on there.

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Am I reading this wrong or are they looking for four hours of range time?

That's my question as well. My understanding reading the curriculum form they provided is that module is 4 total hours covering dry fire and live fire... not that we need to be on the range doing dry fire.... Did it change or was I wrong first, or did the person who wrote this not understand?

 

got it.

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I just caught something page 6 paragraph 2 :cool: 4 hours on the range? Certainly my original understanding is some of that time is dry fire and can be done in the classroom. The range would only be for live fire. ???? 4 hours range time, jiminey crickets bat man! People have been complaining about training fees already, if they have to be on the range 3 additional hours, watch everyone's prices go up by $60 for range time.

 

 

Page 7 section 1231.50 There will be a form for instructors to complete. I think that goes without saying. Look at b 2) Instructors have to certify that the applicant has previously received ISP approved training elsewhere. Does anyone recall that disclaimer form I posted yesterday? Seems like we're gonna need it!

 

same page and section c 1) I see nothing about a 4 hour course. Many people have asked about a 4 hour course for Utah permit holders. Looks like Utah permit holders may have to take a full 8? On a side note, what about CFP? No credit for that? Ok I'm on a tangent now. Back to the document.

 

Maybe same page paragraph E answers my question about CFP and Utah experience???

 

got both of them

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This is why I posted the other day about scanning copies of DD-214's or other documentation of previous training. Since the law specifies INSTRUCTORS as well as the ISP "accepting" previous training, it certainly seems that the ISP will shift that burden to the instructors because they can.

 

Let's take a look at this logically though. Will there be forged documents? Yes. There always will be. If you own a nightclub and an underage kid gets in with a really good fake ID, you aren't going to lose your license if you did your due diligence. We are not expected to be document experts. At the end of the day, I will cover myself by:

 

1) keeping a copy of the document I was provided by the applicant

2) not letting any student even get to the range who doesn't show proficiency in safe gun-handling in the classroom portion.

 

That's all I can do, and all i can be expected to do.

 

got it

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In the last couple of sections they mention a unique number assigned to an instructor and a curriculum. I am hoping to team teach with some other instructors. one of them is an LE instructor and I think he will be submitting the curriculum. does this mean every one of us will have to submit his own curriculum? Or is there separate #s for the instructors and the curriculum?
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4 hours of range time... That means standing around for 3.5 or more of those hours.

3 hours of Cleaning, loading and unloading?

3 hours on marksmanship (combination classroom and range)

2 hours of firearms safety

4 hours on legalities...

 

They are stretching. They literally sat down and said "we have 16 hours to kill on these specific things. How do we bust them up?"

And it shows the complete idiocy of the ILGA dictating a fixed amount of time for training and not just saying here is what you need to cover, now build a syllabus to determine how long it takes.

 

Seriously? 4 or more (depending on the marksmanship par) hours on the range... It means standing around or going home with your thumb web rubbed raw.

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It would be interesting to see what the range training capacity is for IL or for any particular region in IL. If each student must spend 4 hours on the range and assuming ranges stay open for the current operations hours, then their capacity in student-hours can be measured. So if a range is open for 12 hours/day and can accomodate 12 students at a time that would give them a capacity of 12 students/hour * 12 hours/day / 4 hours/class = 36 students/day. If they are open for 6 days/week that is 216 students/week.

 

I'd be interested in seeing what that amounted to regionally but not enough to do the analysis. My gut says, not enough range hours to accomodate 300,000 applicants...

 

Aw there you go again using logic. That is NOT allowed when dealing with the State of Illinois.

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one thing is clearly defined in the emergency rules

 

what a B-27 target is

 

Yea, and that is about it.

 

come on man then the state give you lemons they expect you to make lemonade (and pay taxes on it)

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Does anyone else think that the four hours of range time requirement was added to make this particularly prohibitive? Are there enough ranges to handle the initial volume estimates?
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Does anyone else think that the four hours of range time requirement was added to make this particularly prohibitive? Are there enough ranges to handle the initial volume estimates?

 

honestly I think it's a typo

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There was pistol and revolver discussions in my hunter safety class.

Instructor had examples of both.

Safety loading and unloading transport and storage, no public storage whatever that might be?

 

 

 

What hunter safety did not include is part 2

The marksman ship fundamentals.

 

but thinking back to mine I think there was a picture in the book of a proper sight picture

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I really don't see how hunter safety could be construed to meet the requirement as presented in the emergency rules

Me either, has me concerned. If they just left the word "concealable firearm" out we would be fine.

 

Isn't hunting with a handgun legal at some point in the season?

Ya but in hunter safety did students learn how to clean, maintain and so forth a pistol? Let alone a "concealable firearm"?

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And has anyone ever heard of the NRAA? The Nation Rifle Association of America? Lol

 

Maybe the full incorporated name of the NRA is National Rifle Association of America - I know there 'NRA's' in other countries

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It would seem to me to be reasonable to certify a student if they told me that their previous training course included "x, y and z" content, and I verified for myself that they knew what they were talking about, as in many cases it will be difficult to substantiate exactly what the instructor covered and for how many hours.

 

For instance, if I asked them to take my SIRT laser pistol and hit a small target across the room and they did, then I can be assured that they know about sight alignment, sight picture and trigger control. If they disassemble their concealable firearm for me and show me that they have cleaned it, then I know that they must have proficiency their also.

 

Now if they just have a Utah permit class, then I know they almost certainly had no range time..... So there are always going to be difficulties. But if they have a four hour Utah permit, then it is not too hard to give them another four hours to make it up.

 

If the list of "approved courses" to be posed doesn't include previously taken courses along with the names of the courses we are now submitting, then we will have to use some wisdom exercising the judgment that the law gives us when it tells us that we "shall accept" up to 8 hours of previous training. That being said, our credentials will be on the line, so we will have to take some measures to "CYA" if we are indeed put in this position.

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Here's an immediate concern for me.

 

From 1999-2007 when I retired in disgust, I was a Military Records Expert for the entire VA (US) system. I was then (and still am as an independent contractor) very much involved in the identification of forged/altered documents for the VA's Office of the Inspector General, Criminal Investigation Division.

 

I identified (and caused prosecution) of hundreds of altered/forged DD Form 214s.

 

Fpor instance, the ISP came to me to find and identify the records of the Sycamore 56 year old murder case this past winter where the offender based his entire alibi on his former military records.

 

The ISP is making a HUGE mistake leaving verification of military records to the everyday layman and putting a huge burden on instructors to verify the validity of DD Form 214s.

 

These people are incredibly ate up

Bud I don't have any of the experience that you have and I totally agree. 99% of us are not qualified to make these verifications. Which is why each and every of my customers will sign a waiver stating they agree to indemnify and hold me harmless should their documents be falsified or inaccurate in any way.

 

 

I have a lawyer drafting up a new waiver as of Friday, ( a new page to be exact) as soon as he is done I will email it to all of my candidates with my personal material redacted so that you can use it if you wish. bout a week.

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Sixteen hours of mandatory training? Four hours of range time? A permit that costs $150? $300 for out of state permits? The expenses just keep piling on. I wonder if this is what they meant by "reasonable" when the Seventh Circuit said:

 

Nevertheless we order our mandate stayed for 180 days to allow the Illinois

legislature to craft a new gun law that will

impose reasonable limitations, consistent with the public

safety and the Second Amendment as interpreted in

this opinion, on the carrying of guns in public.

 

Sorry for the rant, folks, but I seem to have a low tolerance for BS today.

 

-- Frank

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You won't need to keep a copy of my DD-214. Who in their right mind would forge a document showing they were stationed at Fort Polk, La? :no:

 

actually lots of people do all the time. They do it to qualify for as monetary benefit or a benefit of some kind.

 

Typoing "Purple Heart" in the awards section earns free lifetime medical care at no expense to you

Type in "Prisoner of War medal" earns you an immediate grant of at least a 50% service connected injury which means lifetime tax free monthly check

 

Type in service during a wartime period (that means any period where the National Defense Medal was awarded) will earn you a lifetime non-service connected veteran's pension.

 

Type in "Vietnam Service" Korean Service" Operation Enduring Freedom" Operation Iraqi Freedom" and that will get you a special license plate and access to lots of State benefits including money.

 

Take your DD Form 214, white out your name and social, copy it and then type in a new name and social security and suddenly the manufactured vet gets a pass for eight hours of training

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Does anyone else think that the four hours of range time requirement was added to make this particularly prohibitive? Are there enough ranges to handle the initial volume estimates?

 

honestly I think it's a typo

 

Logic says yes. This being Illinois, probably not a typo.

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Am I reading this wrong or are they looking for four hours of range time?

That's my question as well. My understanding reading the curriculum form they provided is that module is 4 total hours covering dry fire and live fire... not that we need to be on the range doing dry fire.... Did it change or was I wrong first, or did the person who wrote this not understand?

 

Todd was posting about dry fire exercises before the ISP rules came out, so it was either a crazy coincidence or a warm up for what's to come. I'm ok with dry fire exercises, but it shouldn't be required if it's not in the law.

 

Edit: typo

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