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Proposal to make ghost guns illegal introduced in IL House


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On 3/30/2022 at 9:19 PM, davel501 said:

With basic machining skills you could turn a block of metal into an AR or a 1911. That's not what we're talking about here. These are polymer framed handguns completed with a 12v Dewalt at the kitchen table. 

 

That is what we are talking about here, the proposed law is not limited to the small portion of polymer pistol home built guns only.  It includes all unserialized builds of all kinds, shapes and materials.  Regardless many of those P80s that were built on a desk or kitchen counter and built properly and not hacked togethers have 1000s upon 1000s of trouble free rounds through them, there are video after video on Youtube to testify to this, but there are always going to be idiots that are good at builidng things and those that can't screw in a light bulb without messing it up.  If I was to build one of these at minium I would use a larger drill press and slide vise or a milling machine if available.  I equate building a P80 with a Dremmel tool to the people who tighten screws with a butterknife, just because you can doens't mean it's a good practice or idea to do it that way.  That said, I'm betting if I was inclined I could 100% build and assemble a P80 on my kitchen counter with a rotary tool, drill or whatever and still get it to shoot off 100s of trouble free rounds when it was complete, it's by far one of the easiest 80% builds out there using the most basic tools.  And to be blunt over the years I have built some pretty epic things on the kitchen counter :rofl: 

 

There is also downloadable Ghost Gunner machine cut files for the P80 combined with a $240 jig, it's as easy as mouting it in the jig, loading the file and letting the CNC machine do the rest.  Yeah it's a $2k machine, but at the end of the day it's a small investment if you want to make you own firearms with consistent results time and time again.

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On the subject of serilization, I personally believe laws like this are unconstitutional as they put a significant burden on exercising a right, but it also raises some other issues in regards to home built firearms and serial numbers, that being there is a trend especially among home builders to make the 'receivers' out of plastic, and this poses a significant problem with proper serialization as the ATF requires serilization of polymer receivers to be done on a steel plate embedded into the polymer that if removed would destroy the receiver, open for debate what that actually means and why there are apparently more strict standards for polymer serial numbers then there are for metal framed firearms, whos serial numbers can be removed without destroying the firearm.  For most commerical offerings that steel plate in poly guns is part of an internal steel skelton to the polymer receiver embedded during manufacturing, but how is one supposed to after the fact serialize a polymer receiver that lacks any embedded steel that is sutable for serialization that would destroy the receiver upon removal?  And where you are you going to find the FFLs that will do this based on the risk of not being able to do it in compliance with ATF rules?  It's not like they can simply sonic weld in an engraved steel plate, because that could likely be removed without destroying the firearms, so what would they be required to do?

 

At the end of the day, we all know that requiring serial numbers on home build firearms is just another attack on those that dare to lawfully exercise the 2nd, the criminals will continue to build them without serial numbers.

 

It's 2022, we are nearly at the point where someone with very few skills can 3d print at home long term reliable firearm receivers, we are already at the point where anyone with a desire can print short term reliable firearms even with very cheap 3d home printers.  I have little doubt in the next 5 years very reliable polymer receivers will be able to be printed at home on very affordable machines.

 

I see 99% of the 3d printed firearms right now done one cheap run of the mill FDM printers, but I personally believe it's just a matter of mixing or finding the right resin mixture for an SLA printer to make the jump to near production quality, and decent SLA printers are now very much in the home price range.  I know I'm about to pull the trigger on a SLA printer.

Edited by Flynn
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On 3/30/2022 at 10:50 PM, davel501 said:

 

I had it wrong, it was a kitchen counter (looks like a sink to the right) and he used a dremel too. I would have hand filed it because I always overshoot...like how he drilled through into his gun case. I would have done that too. 🤣

 

 

Thank for posting that.  I like to start developing lines of attack before they're needed so we can react quickly if needed.  You gave me a little of the direction I was looking for.

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So I have at least one rifle without a serial number,  I read through the thread but must have missed something,  The rifle was old in the late 60's/early 70s.  It never had a serial number but was made in  I am guessing in the 30s or so.  it is an old 22 bolt action with a tube magazine.

 

And I don't think my 303 british Ross rifle has a serial number either.  All kinds of markings on the stock as it is over 100 years old, but still extremely accurate.  

 

Do I need to be worried about this?  

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Just asking as I’m not an expert. But what percentage of these homemade guns are in the wild? Estimates? And in a community like IC is there really a large appetite for these? Criminals maybe in my thinking, but honest American gun owners? 

Not speaking of the legality of it all, just the desire to make your own for self defense? 

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On 3/31/2022 at 9:23 AM, rjgogo said:

So I have at least one rifle without a serial number,  I read through the thread but must have missed something,  The rifle was old in the late 60's/early 70s.  It never had a serial number but was made in  I am guessing in the 30s or so.  it is an old 22 bolt action with a tube magazine.

 

And I don't think my 303 british Ross rifle has a serial number either.  All kinds of markings on the stock as it is over 100 years old, but still extremely accurate.  

 

Do I need to be worried about this?  

FOPA - 1986, 22's weren't required until then. 

I have several as well, no way they could tell you to serialize valuable collectables. 

 

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On 3/31/2022 at 6:25 AM, mauserme said:

 

Thank for posting that.  I like to start developing lines of attack before they're needed so we can react quickly if needed.  You gave me a little of the direction I was looking for.

 

There is a study out there of how many recovered crime guns actually work. It is a shockingly low number because many criminals, like police, know nothing about firearms and just use them as a tool of the trade. I'll try to dig it up for you. It is perspective changing.

 

From what I observe watching the news stories, people love to take a glock and throw a wish switch and a God-awful long magazine in it and stick it down their pants without a holster where skin oils are just going to rot the thing.

 

Seriously, watch for it on the news. Every gun seems to have the wish switch and the giant mag.

 

If I was going to pick 1 thing to make the streets safer that does not seem to be getting done is to create a state task force where the AG gets a list of all the wish switch purchasers like the ATF did and goes and arrests those people. Charges at the state level or at least not prosecuted in cook county courts. 

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On 3/31/2022 at 10:00 AM, SiliconSorcerer said:

FOPA - 1986, 22's weren't required until then. 

I have several as well, no way they could tell you to serialize valuable collectables. 

 

Thanks,  Collectables, I still enjoy using them.  Should I not?  

 

The problem is the people that write the gun laws usually don't know anything about guns.  

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On 3/31/2022 at 11:13 AM, rjgogo said:

Thanks,  Collectables, I still enjoy using them.  Should I not?  

 

The problem is the people that write the gun laws usually don't know anything about guns.  

Depends on your definition of collectable, I could write a book on that for firearms... 

and of course value. 

 

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On 3/31/2022 at 9:50 AM, Bubbacs said:

Just asking as I’m not an expert. But what percentage of these homemade guns are in the wild? Estimates? And in a community like IC is there really a large appetite for these? Criminals maybe in my thinking, but honest American gun owners? 

Not speaking of the legality of it all, just the desire to make your own for self defense? 

 

I was really excited about the 3D printing angle. The idea of 3D printing my own Glock where I could do things like add stipple seemed like a homerun. What I found was that the filaments that you print with get super expensive both in terms of material and the need for higher quality / higher heat printers. Even with the really expensive setups you don't get a firearm that is going to last all that long before it starts cracking. Good for safe queens but not range toys.

 

Looked into the P80 frames too and while they last longer they are you get what you give type deal. The more you put into doing them right the closer you get to a factory result.

 

The big problems for me were:

 

1) The thing is an albatross - you can never sell it or give it away. It is illegal to transfer so you are putting in a ton of work for something that you will someday have to destroy.

2) At the time I looked, they only had up to gen 3 Glock. With Gen 5 having just come out, I would have been giving up all of the reliability fixes Glock put in between g3 and g5 while adding in any issues caused by me screwing up the finishing.

 

As far as self-defense goes, I'm camp FBI approved factory ammo and reputable duty grade factory guns.

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On 3/31/2022 at 1:18 PM, davel501 said:

...

2) At the time I looked, they only had up to gen 3 Glock. With Gen 5 having just come out, I would have been giving up all of the reliability fixes Glock put in between g3 and g5 while adding in any issues caused by me screwing up the finishing.

...

 

The patent just expired on Gen 3. It hasn't expired on Gen 4 yet.

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On 3/31/2022 at 12:18 PM, davel501 said:

1) The thing is an albatross - you can never sell it or give it away. It is illegal to transfer so you are putting in a ton of work for something that you will someday have to destroy.

 

This is urban legend...  At the Federal level, as long as you didn't make it with the intent to sell (aka you breached the line between building it for yourself vs building it with the intention to sell) you can legally sell or give the firearm away in the future, at least under Federal law, the ATF used to have a blurb in their FAQ that clearly stated this, but I can't find a link right now *edited as I posted a archive of the link* and suspect they took it down due to current anti-ghost gun culture.  That said the ATF still recommends you serialize it even before selling (they recommend you serialize it upon building as well) but it's not required as you are not a manufacture that would trigger the serialization requirement.  At the end of the day a home built firearm would be sold like other legal non-serilized firearms, but again your intent when building it has to have been to keep it and use it yourself, otherwise you open up a can of worms for illegal manufacturing.

 

Here is an archived link of hte page they have taken down  https://web.archive.org/web/20130325030751/https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html

 

Notice the serilization language is suggestive, and even talks about when and if you sell or transfer your home built firearm.

 

Quote

Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future.

 

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On 3/31/2022 at 3:37 PM, Flynn said:

 

This is urban legend...  At the Federal level, as long as you didn't make it with the intent to sell (aka you breached the line between building it for yourself vs building it with the intention to sell) you can legally sell or give the firearm away in the future, at least under Federal law, the ATF used to have a blurb in their FAQ that clearly stated this, but I can't find a link right now *edited as I posted a archive of the link* and suspect they took it down due to current anti-ghost gun culture.  That said the ATF still recommends you serialize it even before selling (they recommend you serialize it upon building as well) but it's not required as you are not a manufacture that would trigger the serialization requirement.  At the end of the day a home built firearm would be sold like other legal non-serilized firearms, but again your intent when building it has to have been to keep it and use it yourself, otherwise you open up a can of worms for illegal manufacturing.

 

Here is an archived link of hte page they have taken down  https://web.archive.org/web/20130325030751/https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html

 

Notice the serilization language is suggestive, and even talks about when and if you sell or transfer your home built firearm.

 

 

 

Interesting. That was the biggest dealbreaker for me. The 3d printing folks were pretty insistent on that point but looks fine there too: 3D Printed Guns: What is The Law? - U.S. LawShield (uslawshield.com)

 

I thought the coolest one was the guy out west somewhere that sold you a block of metal that you could walk over and put into one of his CNC machines and press the start button. I don't recall what legal reason they used for shutting that down.

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On 3/31/2022 at 12:18 PM, davel501 said:

 

I was really excited about the 3D printing angle. The idea of 3D printing my own Glock where I could do things like add stipple seemed like a homerun. What I found was that the filaments that you print with get super expensive both in terms of material and the need for higher quality / higher heat printers. Even with the really expensive setups you don't get a firearm that is going to last all that long before it starts cracking. Good for safe queens but not range toys.

 

 

You can print several things (Glock frames, Hi Power frames just to name a few) just out of the most common and least expensive filaments such as PLA, PETG, and even ABS on a $200 printer that regularly goes on sale for $100. ABS does generally require an enclosure just to keep ambient temps up but still that's negligible. The same printer I'm making a vague reference to only requires a $60 upgrade to get into printing nylon variants. So we're probably talking $300 for hardware and your first roll or two of consumables. The quality of your print is really the result of understanding your printer, it's capabilities, and the materials you're using. On average I know that a Glock frame takes about 18 hours but depending on your setup but it can be done faster and look good even with the equipment I alluded to above. 

 

As far as durability, sure mag dumping multiple mags on a PLA frame will cause longevity problems but I just saw one that was made out of temperature color change material where the owner indicated the frame where it meets the slide didn't even get hot enough to change the color (110 degrees F). BUT what I was getting at is through normal use your basic PLA glock frame will last hundreds or thousands of rounds and nylon will be close to or on par with factory strength. 

 

 

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On 3/31/2022 at 3:54 PM, solareclipse2 said:

 

You can print several things (Glock frames, Hi Power frames just to name a few) just out of the most common and least expensive filaments such as PLA, PETG, and even ABS on a $200 printer that regularly goes on sale for $100. ABS does generally require an enclosure just to keep ambient temps up but still that's negligible. The same printer I'm making a vague reference to only requires a $60 upgrade to get into printing nylon variants. So we're probably talking $300 for hardware and your first roll or two of consumables. The quality of your print is really the result of understanding your printer, it's capabilities, and the materials you're using. On average I know that a Glock frame takes about 18 hours but depending on your setup but it can be done faster and look good even with the equipment I alluded to above. 

 

As far as durability, sure mag dumping multiple mags on a PLA frame will cause longevity problems but I just saw one that was made out of temperature color change material where the owner indicated the frame where it meets the slide didn't even get hot enough to change the color (110 degrees F). BUT what I was getting at is through normal use your basic PLA glock frame will last hundreds or thousands of rounds and nylon will be close to or on par with factory strength. 

 

 

I think I know what printer you are referring to although I don't remember it being able to solve for the temperature. There was the temperature of the print head and the temp of the enclosure or plate...can't remember which but you had to solve for both. 

 

The results you have seen sound a lot better than the results people were getting at the time I looked. Have you printed one?

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On 3/31/2022 at 4:53 PM, davel501 said:

...

I thought the coolest one was the guy out west somewhere that sold you a block of metal that you could walk over and put into one of his CNC machines and press the start button. I don't recall what legal reason they used for shutting that down.

 

Machine shops that offered that service were prohibited from providing that service simply because it was still a service provided by the machine shop. Independent of who pressed the start button and who owned the raw aluminum block, the frame/receiver was made on a mill owned by the machine shop in the machine shop supervised by machine shop personnel.

 

An interesting twist would be to see of the ATF could prohibit a machine shop from renting out its mills. Then a private individual would make a receiver on a mill owned by the machine shop, rented by the individual, in his home supervised by nobody. The delivery and liability insurance might make it disadvantageous economically.

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On 3/31/2022 at 9:50 AM, Bubbacs said:

Just asking as I’m not an expert. But what percentage of these homemade guns are in the wild? Estimates? And in a community like IC is there really a large appetite for these? Criminals maybe in my thinking, but honest American gun owners? 

Not speaking of the legality of it all, just the desire to make your own for self defense? 

If the various gun builder forums I follow are any indication I'd say hundreds of thousands of the P80 Glocks at least, and that's just the home builders. Then you have the 07 FFLs who build and sell them under their own house brand, 80% 1911 frames also being built both home & commercially, the various flavors of AR9/15/10, HK 91 builds, AK builds, Ruger 10/22 builds, and God knows what else I'm forgetting based on current/past commercially developed guns. You also get into the subset of 80% builder who do almost everything from scratch including rifling their own barrel. 

A lot of the people I've encountered over the years are the same types who build hot rods, motorcycles, enjoy carpentry, home improvement, etc. and do it not to hide anything from .gov but just for the pure enjoyment and sense of accomplishment. The crooks doing horrible things ruin it for everyone else as usual.

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On 3/31/2022 at 4:47 PM, Euler said:

 

Machine shops that offered that service were prohibited from providing that service simply because it was still a service provided by the machine shop. Independent of who pressed the start button and who owned the raw aluminum block, the frame/receiver was made on a mill owned by the machine shop in the machine shop supervised by machine shop personnel.

 

An interesting twist would be to see of the ATF could prohibit a machine shop from renting out its mills. Then a private individual would make a receiver on a mill owned by the machine shop, rented by the individual, in his home supervised by nobody. The delivery and liability insurance might make it disadvantageous economically.

On the Calguns forum I've seen folks speculating on the legality of "selling" a mill back/forth - supposedly loaning a tool isn't good enough for ATF - but no one wants to be a test case. In theory I could sell you my Ghost Gunner & tooling (I don't have one... it's an overpriced toy IMHO), you use it to process your unfinished receiver and when done sell it back to me for the same price.

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On 3/31/2022 at 4:49 PM, guzzimike66 said:

If the various gun builder forums I follow are any indication I'd say hundreds of thousands of the P80 Glocks at least, and that's just the home builders. Then you have the 07 FFLs who build and sell them under their own house brand, 80% 1911 frames also being built both home & commercially, the various flavors of AR9/15/10, HK 91 builds, AK builds, Ruger 10/22 builds, and God knows what else I'm forgetting based on current/past commercially developed guns. You also get into the subset of 80% builder who do almost everything from scratch including rifling their own barrel. 

A lot of the people I've encountered over the years are the same types who build hot rods, motorcycles, enjoy carpentry, home improvement, etc. and do it not to hide anything from .gov but just for the pure enjoyment and sense of accomplishment. The crooks doing horrible things ruin it for everyone else as usual.

 

All this + it feels like a patriotic thing to do, like voting. 

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On 3/31/2022 at 4:45 PM, davel501 said:

I think I know what printer you are referring to although I don't remember it being able to solve for the temperature. There was the temperature of the print head and the temp of the enclosure or plate...can't remember which but you had to solve for both. 

 

The results you have seen sound a lot better than the results people were getting at the time I looked. Have you printed one?

 

It's the Ender 3, I guess there's no harm in saying it. The bed temp will get to 65C without an enclosure and 70-75C with, so high enough for printing PLA, PETG, ABS, and those nylon variants. The $60 microswiss hot end upgrade is a direct replacement that will give you a nozzle temp up to 265C with no monkeying around with firmware or wiring but you don't need it for PETG or ABS. Nylon requires it. 

 

I have printed two. One out of PLA and one out of carbon fiber infused high temp PLA on a stock printer with no mods. The CF HTPLA requires annealing in an oven though. I printed them and destroyed the CF model and I threw the PLA one in a bin in my workshop. I'm entirely too cheap to spend the money on a parts kit to finish a Glock when the PSA Dagger is $300 and a basic parts kit will cost me the same retail and entirely too impatient to hunt for deals. 

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On 3/31/2022 at 5:03 PM, solareclipse2 said:

 

It's the Ender 3, I guess there's no harm in saying it. The bed temp will get to 65C without an enclosure and 70-75C with, so high enough for printing PLA, PETG, ABS, and those nylon variants. The $60 microswiss hot end upgrade is a direct replacement that will give you a nozzle temp up to 265C with no monkeying around with firmware or wiring but you don't need it for PETG or ABS. Nylon requires it. 

 

I have printed two. One out of PLA and one out of carbon fiber infused high temp PLA on a stock printer with no mods. The CF HTPLA requires annealing in an oven though. I printed them and destroyed the CF model and I threw the PLA one in a bin in my workshop. I'm entirely too cheap to spend the money on a parts kit to finish a Glock when the PSA Dagger is $300 and a basic parts kit will cost me the same retail and entirely too impatient to hunt for deals. 

 

I'm super interested in the nylon printing. The factory-like durability with the ability to include an undercut, gas pedal, stipple, etc. If you do go big and give it a shot make sure to make a post. A frame that could last some multiple of the 5k round spring intervals would be super compelling.

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On 3/31/2022 at 5:08 PM, davel501 said:

 

I'm super interested in the nylon printing. The factory-like durability with the ability to include an undercut, gas pedal, stipple, etc. If you do go big and give it a shot make sure to make a post. A frame that could last some multiple of the 5k round spring intervals would be super compelling.

 

Not gonna lie I have been looking at the hot end upgrade to print nylon but for other reasons. I may do the upgrade this year, I still have a partial roll of nylon G from something else but I wasn't happy with the results without the enclosure though I was able to get a print with it. 

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On 3/31/2022 at 4:56 PM, Smallbore said:

How many criminal types build guns? Of the few how many will this effect?

 

I would think the typical arrestee isn't building them...  most of those guys just don't seem very smart or detail oriented. I imagine there are "builders" slapping them together in the shadows and charging crazy money.

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On 3/31/2022 at 5:15 PM, solareclipse2 said:

 

Not gonna lie I have been looking at the hot end upgrade to print nylon but for other reasons. I may do the upgrade this year, I still have a partial roll of nylon G from something else but I wasn't happy with the results without the enclosure though I was able to get a print with it. 

Saw a guy on Reddit who tweaked his Ender and had amazing results using CarbonX ezPC+CF from 3DX Tech to the point prints look like they are injection molded.  He upgraded to a 

315C rated temp sensor, 250W Bed heater, High Temp Heater Cartridge & all metal hotend. Then he runs it inside a Creality enclosure thing.

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On 3/31/2022 at 4:49 PM, guzzimike66 said:

If the various gun builder forums I follow are any indication I'd say hundreds of thousands of the P80 Glocks at least, and that's just the home builders. Then you have the 07 FFLs who build and sell them under their own house brand, 80% 1911 frames also being built both home & commercially, the various flavors of AR9/15/10, HK 91 builds, AK builds, Ruger 10/22 builds, and God knows what else I'm forgetting based on current/past commercially developed guns. You also get into the subset of 80% builder who do almost everything from scratch including rifling their own barrel. 

A lot of the people I've encountered over the years are the same types who build hot rods, motorcycles, enjoy carpentry, home improvement, etc. and do it not to hide anything from .gov but just for the pure enjoyment and sense of accomplishment. The crooks doing horrible things ruin it for everyone else as usual.

You nailed it. The way I’ve seen it, a guy who starts by building guitars as a teenager, builds hotrods as a young adult, buys a house to remodel:… builds some 1911’s for fun…. Eventually builds some 80% deals, because heck, once you’ve done all the rest, how much more work can it be to go that one step further….. not that I’ve gone down that road.  But I think you nailed it, idle curiosity vs legit using to skirt laws

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On 3/31/2022 at 3:53 PM, davel501 said:

 

Interesting. That was the biggest dealbreaker for me. The 3d printing folks were pretty insistent on that point but looks fine there too: 3D Printed Guns: What is The Law? - U.S. LawShield (uslawshield.com)

 

This is a classic case of the ATF and others loving the "Illusory Truth Effect" aka making people believe it's illegal by allowing some to proclaim it's illegal without ever correcting them or remaining mostly silent on the subject of it being legal.  There is still a vast portion of the general public that fully believes it's 100% illegal for you to make your own firearm at all.

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