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Champion Safe alters receipt from NRA Convention purchase


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#1 Paints-n-cows

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Posted 09 July 2019 - 07:18 PM

If you purchased a safe from Champion safe at the NRA Convention, you may want to make sure they are fulfilling their obligations. It may also make you question whether they will honor any agreements or warranties for their product.

I put a deposit on a safe with delivery scheduled to be after July 1. The purchase and the contract was signed by the president of Champion Safe, Mr. Ray Crosby. At the time, he was interested in telling me how he this was the third safe company that he had started and a how wonderful a guy he was. He continued telling me what a wonderful deal I was getting on this "Cadillac-quality" safe.

The next day while walking around the exhibit floor, we saw that they had another model at about half the price but about the same dimensionally. The sign said it was a model that they were discontinuing. It was basically was not as fancy as the other one that was twice the cost. After expressing how upset he was with one of his employees, Mr. Crosby took my receipt and made some alterations to fit the newly requested safe at the cost that was posted on the safe. My copy has his initials on it as well as mine.This is the copy that I retained.

Yesterday, July 8, I was contacted by the rep for the company out of St Louis. Just as a precaution to having 1000 lb safe delivered that was wrong, I asked the rep to verify the model, dimensions, and price due on delivery. Imagine my surprise when he told me a price of $200 more than was on my receipt.

He then sent me a photo-text of the paperwork that he had in his hand. Clearly you can see where someone altered that paperwork to reflect any additional delivery fee of $200. My copy is labelled "office copy 1" and the photo that he sent me was "office copy 2".

This morning, I reached out to Mr. Crosby and told him about the situation. He started recalling the transaction and told me that since I had changed my mind and decided to purchase the lesser-priced safe that there was no way that he could include the delivery cost in the price that we had agreed on.

I told him that I had a binding contract and he said that he would refund my deposit but that was all that he would do. When I suggested that there were possible legal ramifications, he told me that "lawyers cost money and that I would not get anything anyway".

My reason for telling this is to simply make buyers aware that evidently this is how Champion Safes fulfills their obligations to written contracts.

I will include copies of the documents with the cc info redacted. You can clearly see where their copy was altered.

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • my receipts - Copy.jpg
  • fake receipt - Copy.jpg

Edited by Paints-n-cows, 10 July 2019 - 04:46 AM.

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#2 Bird76Mojo

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 01:32 AM

Lawyer up


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#3 byxlaw

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 03:22 AM

PM sent

#4 DarkLord

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 12:27 PM

Good to know, they are weasels..



#5 borgranta

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 04:56 PM

Falsifying documents is illegal and should be reported to law enforcement since in many states it is a felony.


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#6 domin8

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 05:07 PM

In this situation I think the police will tell you it's a civil matter and to file a claim in civil court Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
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#7 borgranta

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 05:11 PM

“Falsifying documents” is a type of white collar crime. It involves altering, changing, or modifying a document for the purpose of deceiving another person. It can also involve the passing along of copies of documents that are known to be false. In many states, falsifying a document is a crime punishable as a felony. The falsified receipt was an attempt to defraud the OP out of an additional $200.


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#8 domin8

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 05:21 PM

I'm not an idiot. I know what a felony is. I know this is a felony. In this case I guarantee you the police will tell you it's a civil matter and to sue. Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
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#9 DomG

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 09:20 PM

If they were at the NRA show, make a copy of both receipts and send to the NRA.
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#10 Flynn

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 03:25 AM

I would lawyer up, shop around you will probably find one willing to do it contigent on winning and them paying ltheir legal fees since you have all the proof you need to prove they altered documents to extort more money from you, can't see a judge no ruling against them since they commited a crime.  I mean seriously your reciept says 'includes delivery' then they add a delivery charge, that isn't going to pass a sniff test in a court, and remember lawyers cost them as well, especially when they lose.

 

I would also contact the NRA since they were a vendor at the convention and it refects negatively on them so they might put some pressure on the company to make good.


Edited by Flynn, 11 July 2019 - 03:27 AM.

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#11 RS1

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 08:21 AM

Pay the extra $200 and get the safe or tell them to go pound and that you don't want it. It's not worth your time and expense to take it to court.

If you want to get some blood out of them, take to social media (like you have here) and the BBB. You could fire off a letter to their state's Attorney General as well. No cost to you, potential cost to them.

#12 richp

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 08:54 AM

Hi,

It is exceedingly unlikely you will be able to find a lawyer willing to take on a $200 case for contingent payment. Pay it or keep lookng for a bargain.

If you want some potential jollies, write Judge Judy and see if you can get on TV with it. Otherwise decide how bad you want it at the new price and get on with life...

FWIW.

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#13 mrmagloo

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 09:01 AM

Imho, get your refund and continue bashing them if you want. No LEO will get involved in something like this. And, any attorney worth using is going to demand a retainer.  Then where is the jurisdiction?  You blanked out your address, but if it's out of state, start adding in even more costs and hassles.  You will never end up ahead here.  I've ran into way worse transactional disputes, and getting any LEO agency to give a crap is almost impossible.

 

I do however like the idea of alerting the NRA as well.  Imho, there is a slight chance that they might lean on them a bit, but we all know they are a bit distracted now.  However, thanks for sharing.  I sure won't do business with people like this.

 

Good luck.


Edited by mrmagloo, 11 July 2019 - 09:03 AM.


#14 Paints-n-cows

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 07:26 PM

I called the NRA and requested to speak with whoever coordinates their vendors at the National Convention.

 

I was told that the complaint would be forwarded up the chain.  After he said that, I asked him if he would like to know my name and phone.

 

So basically it was "too bad, so sad" from the NRA.

 

Sure am glad that I'm a Life Member of that organization.  I realize that this is small in the grand pool of all things political, etc. but I'm betting a simple phone call from someone with an official title from the NRA showing interest might change his mind.

 

As an aside, I still have not seen my refund on my card if that is what the end game was going to be.  They are next on my phone call list


"If you shoot, shoot to kill. If you just wound them, they aren't going to be impressed. Most of them have been shot before." Sam Elliott in the "Quick and the Dead", 1987

#15 domin8

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 08:43 PM

Now that is a way to handle it. Let Champion bill your credit card, then file a fraud claim and dispute the $200. Provide your credit card with the proof you have. You'll likely get your money back. Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
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#16 45Badger

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 04:17 AM

Nothing free in this world. Including delivery on cheap(er) residential security containers. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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#17 GTX63

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 05:21 AM

Now that is a way to handle it. Let Champion bill your credit card, then file a fraud claim and dispute the $200. Provide your credit card with the proof you have. You'll likely get your money back. Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

That is an option....



#18 mrmagloo

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 07:39 AM

Now that is a way to handle it. Let Champion bill your credit card, then file a fraud claim and dispute the $200. Provide your credit card with the proof you have. You'll likely get your money back. Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

The problem there is, if it could be documented that he was aware of the price change PRIOR to giving final approval, and he approved anyway, he might not fare so well.  The issue is, the vendor now clearly knows about the dispute, and gave him a choice. Accept the increase or he will give back the deposit.  So if he presses forward, he is legally accepting the increase. This angle may or may not work as planned.



#19 Smallbore

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 11:51 AM

I'd cut and paste my complaint with receipt on every gun forum through out the country. Stick with facts. No emotion. No call to action. "Just the facts ma'am."

#20 carry

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 01:16 PM

So now, when you hear a safe vendor state at a convention/show âthis is the fourth safe company Iâve startedâ, youâll know to keep on walking and not place an order ... The red flags are everywhere, listen to your gut.

Edited by carry, 12 July 2019 - 01:18 PM.


#21 mrmagloo

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 01:57 PM

So now, when you hear a safe vendor state at a convention/show âthis is the fourth safe company Iâve startedâ, youâll know to keep on walking and not place an order ... The red flags are everywhere, listen to your gut.

 

I'm not sure a blanket statement like that is fair.  However, if the vendor is CHAMPION, I'd agree, you might want to run the other way seeing how this guy does business.  Hopefully, this situation forces them to rethink their despicable business practices. 



#22 borgranta

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 03:43 PM

You may want to file a complaint with the FTC since they are the governent agency that handles complaints deal with illegal business practices. 


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#23 borgranta

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 03:44 PM

Also contact your credit card company now to apprise them of the situation and they may be able to put pressure on the company.


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#24 borgranta

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 03:58 PM

By falsifying credit card receipts this merchant is likely violating contract terms that enable him to accept credit cards such but not limited to Visa and Mastercard.  You can file a complaint to Visa at 1-800-VISA-911. Alternatively, you can call the number on the back of your card.

If you would prefer to send a written complaint, you can address it to:

Visa U.S.A. Inc.
P.O. Box 194607
San Francisco, CA 94119-4607

 

You can file a complaint with Mastercard by calling 1-800-MASTERCARD, or you can call the number on the back of your card.

Alternatively you can file a complaint with their website here

https://www.masterca...rd-webform.html


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#25 borgranta

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 04:00 PM

The merchant may potentially lose the ability to process credit cards if they learn of his illegal merchant activity.


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#26 RS1

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 06:43 PM

By falsifying credit card receipts this merchant is likely violating contract terms that enable him to accept credit cards such but not limited to Visa and Mastercard.  You can file a complaint to Visa at 1-800-VISA-911. Alternatively, you can call the number on the back of your card.
If you would prefer to send a written complaint, you can address it to:
Visa U.S.A. Inc.
P.O. Box 194607
San Francisco, CA 94119-4607
 
You can file a complaint with Mastercard by calling 1-800-MASTERCARD, or you can call the number on the back of your card.[/size]
Alternatively you can file a complaint with their website here[/size]
https://www.masterca...rd-webform.html[/size]


It's a purchase order, not a credit card report.

#27 borgranta

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 09:23 PM

 

By falsifying credit card receipts this merchant is likely violating contract terms that enable him to accept credit cards such but not limited to Visa and Mastercard.  You can file a complaint to Visa at 1-800-VISA-911. Alternatively, you can call the number on the back of your card.
If you would prefer to send a written complaint, you can address it to:
Visa U.S.A. Inc.
P.O. Box 194607
San Francisco, CA 94119-4607
 
You can file a complaint with Mastercard by calling 1-800-MASTERCARD, or you can call the number on the back of your card.[/size]
Alternatively you can file a complaint with their website here[/size]
https://www.masterca...rd-webform.html[/size]


It's a purchase order, not a credit card report.

 

it is a receipt and both receipts indicate the intent of the seller to attempt to fraudulently charge more than indicated on the customer copy.  fraudulent charges violate laws as well as the contract that a seller has with Visa and Mastercard.


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#28 RS1

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 07:23 AM

By falsifying credit card receipts this merchant is likely violating contract terms that enable him to accept credit cards such but not limited to Visa and Mastercard.  You can file a complaint to Visa at 1-800-VISA-911. Alternatively, you can call the number on the back of your card.
If you would prefer to send a written complaint, you can address it to:
Visa U.S.A. Inc.
P.O. Box 194607
San Francisco, CA 94119-4607
 
You can file a complaint with Mastercard by calling 1-800-MASTERCARD, or you can call the number on the back of your card.[/size] Alternatively you can file a complaint with their website here[/size] https://www.masterca...rd-webform.html[/size]

It's a purchase order, not a credit card report.
it is a receipt and both receipts indicate the intent of the seller to attempt to fraudulently charge more than indicated on the customer copy.  fraudulent charges violate laws as well as the contract that a seller has with Visa and Mastercard.
No, it's a purchase order. No transaction has taken place, just an agreement in the form of a purchase order and a non-binding down deposit. Therefore, MasterCard isn't even involved yet in the disputed $200.

If the buyer proceeds with the transaction, they will have done so under the new purchase agreement. Not a basis for a charge back.

Yes, altering the PO is an issue but again, not an issue for MasterCard since it was done before any charges and the buyer was made aware of the changes.

Edited by RS1, 13 July 2019 - 07:24 AM.


#29 Flynn

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 12:01 AM

It is exceedingly unlikely you will be able to find a lawyer willing to take on a $200 case for contingent payment.

 

If the lawyer prevails it's likely the lawyer will be able to bill all his charged hours to the safe company and be awarded those attorney fees under the Illinois Consumer Fraud and Deceptive Practices Act.


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#30 domin8

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 09:39 AM

The legal definition of Fair Market Value has been violated. If any part of this transaction has been placed via a credit card then the credit card company can most certainly get involved. Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
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