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Barnett v. Raoul (3:23-cv-00209) (S.D. Ill. 2023) - NSSF Gun/Mag Ban


Upholder

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On 3/15/2023 at 5:48 PM, MrTriple said:

Given the timeline the judge set, is it more likely that he'd simply issue his ruling without first issuing any sort of injunction? Just hear the arguments in April, then issue his final ruling a few weeks later?

 

The hearing on April 12 is for a preliminary injunction. The judge is not going to issue a preliminary injunction before having a hearing for a preliminary injunction.

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On 3/15/2023 at 5:05 PM, Euler said:

 

The hearing on April 12 is for a preliminary injunction. The judge is not going to issue a preliminary injunction before having a hearing for a preliminary injunction.

That makes more sense. I was under the impression that the April hearing was an actual trial, not merely a hearing for a preliminary injunction.

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A Flurry of filings from the defense and related parties today:

 

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On 3/16/2023 at 8:11 PM, Upholder said:

I'm skimming through the various filings and this bit caught my eye from Docket entry 55:

 

image.png.27b5ec7c11ee6f4f0c0d04d806490918.png

 

 

They won't even admit that the quotations of the law are accurate.

 

 

 

But they are sure it's constitutional.   🙄😎

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It's pretty standard for defendants to deny all the allegations in a complaint. The point of a trial is to determine what the actual facts are.

 

On 3/16/2023 at 9:22 PM, steveTA84 said:

This means they know they are screwed and that their last hope is a jury full of idiots/people willing to side with them over their own political beliefs 

 

They just need to find 12 people who aren't firearm owners.

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On 3/16/2023 at 9:10 PM, Upholder said:

It is my understanding (as a non-lawyer) that Juries are finders of fact.  Judges apply laws.  There are no facts here, only laws to be interpreted and thus a Jury trial is inappropriate.

 

Yeah, I was wondering what place a jury would have in determining constitutional questions. But, I'm not a lawyer either.

 

Here's hoping one chimes in.

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Some issues in a case can be a mixed question of law and fact.  For instance, what is the scope of a 1789 statute that one side argues covers prohibition of semi automatic rifles  while plaintiffs might say that such a (imaginary) statute has nothing to do with such rifles.  Is that a fact determination for the jury, or a legal issue for the judge?  Or, is a fact determination needed as to whether some obscure prohibition found in a 1789 book was ever enacted into law.  I don't know the answers to those questions but a judge could put such determinations to the jury, even if only seeking an advisory opinion that the judge will make the ultimate final determination.

 

Denying everything in an answer is not unusual although in Federal Court, a judge could come down hard on the defense's answers.  Not sure as to how much federal court experience the state's lawyers have.

Edited by gunuser17
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On 3/16/2023 at 9:10 PM, Upholder said:

It is my understanding (as a non-lawyer) that Juries are finders of fact.  Judges apply laws.  There are no facts here, only laws to be interpreted and thus a Jury trial is inappropriate.

 

I 100% agree, a jury trial is inappropriate and should not be granted, it;s the judge has to interpret the law here.

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On 3/16/2023 at 10:32 PM, gunuser17 said:

Some issues in a case can be a mixed question of law and fact.  For instance, what is the scope of a 1789 statute that one side argues covers prohibition of semi automatic rifles  while plaintiffs might say that such a (imaginary) statute has nothing to do with such rifles.  Is that a fact determination for the jury, or a legal issue for the judge?  Or, is a fact determination needed as to whether some obscure prohibition found in a 1789 book was ever enacted into law.  I don't know the answers to those questions but a judge could put such determinations to the jury, even if only seeking an advisory opinion that the judge will make the ultimate final determination.

 

Denying everything in an answer is not unusual although in Federal Court, a judge could come down hard on the defense's answers.  Not sure as to how much federal court experience the state's lawyers have.

 

In cases like this the court/judge would generally appoint a Special Master to determine those facts if and when needed.

Edited by Flynn
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