What`s wrong with NRA Instructors

[WtJen]

The fact the owner has neither a FOID or is an ISP instructor is worrisome. I wonder what else we don't know about this organization.

[Type A]

Wtjen- Apparently you are a box of rocks because I just stated that I do and am going to apply for ccw instructor just to apease individuals like you.....Or did you miss the prior post?

[bobapunk]

Bobapunk- To prevent you and your "team mates" in concealed carry from making up things in reference to me not having and Never being allowed to have a FOID card, I have decided to get certified on the ISP website. I will submit my application tomorrow and within three weeks maybe you will see that all of it is false allegations. I did not get certified as of yet because I have other approved instructos teaching the ccw courses for us and I am putting together business solutions entity for my company In Illinois. I hope to have this up and running within a few weeks.

 

That will go a long way to nullifying the various rumors surrounding your tumultuous past.

 

Sent from my SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

 

 

[C0untZer0]

Oy...

[MGF]

The quote in question: "“Be careful on who you pick as a training provider,” Rabenau said. “They opened it up to NRA instructors, which could be you, a school teacher, or a farmer … at the end of a two day course you’re an instructor.”

 

I have, to a degree, a similar concern. A lot of people with questionable training and shooting experience have sought out out NRA instructor creds for the purpose of teaching CC in Illinois. With that said, it needs to be sorted out by asking questions of one's prospective instructor and looking objectively at his or her experience...not by deriding the entirety of NRA instructors.

 

A belief that a Green Beret who has taught SF combat shooting is automatically a better CCFL teacher for, say school teachers and farmers, then would be another civilian is highly questionable. And how many NRA instructors either learned from, or are partnered with, LEOs? How many are themselves vets and or LEOs?

 

If Nick wishes to run a company and make a marketing pitch based on SF quals, it's America and he can. I wish he did not feel some need to deride such a large group of other people, many of whom I know to be excellent instructors.

 

I have worked several events in which the NRA, ISRA or gun clubs introduced people to firearms, including live fire. If the SF fellows were present, I somehow missed it. I do not deride their service to our country. I do have a problem with us having a two-tiered society of lawful carriers and instructors ... those who believe it is a privilege to be bestowed only upon completing training from a government employee or former government employee, and then there's the rest of us.

 

That strikes me as a form of elitism that borders on gun control.

[DoverGunner]

The quote in question: "“Be careful on who you pick as a training provider,” Rabenau said. “They opened it up to NRA instructors, which could be you, a school teacher, or a farmer … at the end of a two day course you’re an instructor.”

 

I have, to a degree, a similar concern. A lot of people with questionable training and shooting experience have sought out out NRA instructor creds for the purpose of teaching CC in Illinois. With that said, it needs to be sorted out by asking questions of one's prospective instructor and looking objectively at his or her experience...not by deriding the entirety of NRA instructors.

 

A belief that a Green Beret who has taught SF combat shooting is automatically a better CCFL teacher for, say school teachers and farmers, then would be another civilian is highly questionable. And how many NRA instructors either learned from, or are partnered with, LEOs? How many are themselves vets and or LEOs?

 

If Nick wishes to run a company and make a marketing pitch based on SF quals, it's America and he can. I wish he did not feel some need to deride such a large group of other people, many of whom I know to be excellent instructors.

 

I have worked several events in which the NRA, ISRA or gun clubs introduced people to firearms, including live fire. If the SF fellows were present, I somehow missed it. I do not deride their service to our country. I do have a problem with us having a two-tiered society of lawful carriers and instructors ... those who believe it is a privilege to be bestowed only upon completing training from a government employee or former government employee, and then there's the rest of us.

 

That strikes me as a form of elitism that borders on gun control.

Well Said . Very Well indeed

[NRApistol]

Bobapunk- To prevent you and your "team mates" in concealed carry

Sir, thank-you for your service to our country and welcome to the forum.

 

Please consider a different point of view. We (NRA instructors) are not training swat teams to storm a bus in a hostage situation, we are teaching citizens the skills and knowledge necessary to obtain a Firearm Concealed Carry License as mandated by the State of Illinois.

 

Yes Sir, we are "team mates" doing our very best to see that everyone has the right to be protected by our constitution, especially the second amendment. We do not all march to the same drummer, but by golly we all march in the same direction for the same cause.

 

From an article posted by: McDonoughVoice.com on Oct. 27, 2013

 

"Be careful on who you pick as a training provider," Rabenau said. "They opened it up to NRA instructors, which could be you, a teacher, or a farmer ... at the end of a two day course you`re and instructor."

 

Nick, when I went to school we learned that: " which could be you, a teacher, or a farmer" went by a different name in 1775 when they fired that shot heard `round the world.

 

I suggest you quit trying to sell a Boy`s Band right here in River City and give NRA instructors the credit they are due.

[C0untZer0]

I don't understand the dichotomy that is being drawn between military and NRA. If you know the history of the NRA you know that the NRA has had a close relationship with the military dating back to it origins. When I was in the service and competing everyone in the MTU at Fort Polk were NRA members and they were basically teaching the same stuff that the NRA teaches as far as fundamentals.

 

Whats wrong with NRA instructors?

 

Not

Really

Anything

 

They Grrrrrrreat !

[TyGuy]

Let's just work to drop the training requirement totally so we can make these discussions moot.

[Pipedoc]

Let's just work to drop the training requirement totally so we can make these discussions moot.

 

Thread winner!!!!

[TimGiblin]

Let's just work to drop the training requirement totally so we can make these discussions moot.

Let's just work to drop the training requirement totally so we can make these discussions moot.

absolutely

 

Thread winner!!!!

yup

 

Loctite/paint pen/regularly check your gear. A gun falling off your belt is unacceptable

 

 

[BIGDEESUL]

From what I see here, the damage has been done. As welcoming as Illinoiscarry is, it is a wholesome tight knit group, including a LOT of NRA instructors. What has been said is already done, and the people that have taken offense aren't going to change their minds because you joined the forum to explain yourself. You may be an awesome instructor and probably aren't a bad guy. But googling and word of mouth has made up my mind about staying away from any training you offer. Nothing personal, just analyzing what's in front of me.

 

Welcome to the forum, and please stay and share your opinions and knowledge with us, but you're beating a dead horse with this one. You don't have to appease anyone here by becoming an approved instructor yourself. Nobody cares.

 

There's no such thing as a 16 hour gunfighter class, so an NRA BP instructor with a vast knowledge of firearms and their safe and proper use can relay that information to students just as well and most of the time better than a 30 year veteran tactical operator.

 

I've been in classes where some highly skilled operators and doorkickers couldn't explain how to visually tell which way a revolver's cylinder rotates.

 

I wish you the best of luck, but this is pointless. Give up on this thread and chime in on holster recommendations on another thread. Share all of this knowledge you have without being condescending. That's how you can win us over.

 

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk

[BIGDEESUL]

Oh, yeah and don't forget to become a supporting member, and also throw some bucks toward the cause if you're going to plug your business as in other threads. The great people running this site are the ones that were central in the fight to get us where we are right now with the carry law.

 

 

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk

 

 

[TyGuy]

How a revolver works?

 

S&W - push the cylinder release

 

Colt - pull the cylinder release

[WtJen]

Colts are superior in every way.

[tkroenlein]

Colts are superior in every way.

 

Where can I buy a new one?

[WtJen]

Colts are superior in every way.

 

Where can I buy a new one?

 

You could buy a used one from me, if I was selling it, which I'm not.

[wtr100]

Let's just work to drop the training requirement totally so we can make these discussions moot.

 

good plan - won't happen anytime soon - the powers that be see the 'problem', that being the court not out infringed right, as solved and will spend little to no time on making changes

 

maybe they'll raise the fee or combine the physical foid card into our permission slip but other than that ...

[Mr. Fife]

If you would like to question my credentials as a former Special Forces soldier, you are welcome to visit this website and see for yourself. Here is an individual that had the same question and some of my fellow operators responded to them too. http://www.professio...ad.php?p=509739

Nick was in C-2/7th Group... The name was familiar but the pick was for sure. He's gained some weight (as have I).

 

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/eating/yummy.gif LOL, who hasn't? Thanks for your service and welcome to the group.

[BIGDEESUL]

Mean to write which way the cylinder rotates, not operates. Lol.

 

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk

 

 

[Type A]

Strategic Security Services, Inc. (DBA Type A Training Group)- Check out our previous tactical training programs that we have conducted for local, state, and federal agencies along with civilians. http://typeatraininggroup.com/category/articles/

[MGF]

Below is a link to another voice on NRA instructors. It was a guest column that was submitted and ran on the opinion page in the paper for which I work, The Southern Illinoisan.

Some might think the writer somewhat "elitist," but note that he gives solid tips on choosing an instructor. If you check his background on the Heartland Training Team website, you'll also see he is solidly NRA qualified in addition to being a former police officer.

I think it is also noteworthy that Heartland on its "places we like" section also endorses a "competing" group, Tropper Trained LLC, which isn't but about 45 miles away. The Trooper Trained fellows are also, oddly enough, NRA supporters in addition to being retired state police.

By way of disclosure, I have shot with Mike Corkran of Heartland and JJ Wittenborn of Trooper Trained. I count them among my friends and would hope they count me among theirs. What I like about these gentleman is that neither is in the slightest threatened or worried about helping a civilian shooter and/or instructor get better.

And, oddly enough, I have worked with a few other NRA training counselors with LEO backgrounds in both the St. Louis and Chicago areas. All three of those gentleman have been most generous with their time and encouragement in my own development as an instructor.

I take none of these attributes away from Nick, as I do not know that much the same cannot be said about him. But here is another point of view, and it stirred very little, if any, controversy in these parts:

http://thesouthern.com/news/opinion/editorial/corkran-concealed-carry-students-beware/article_d2572b1c-41e5-11e3-afe8-001a4bcf887a.html

[Mr. Fife]

Any NRA instructor who is trying to throw other NRA instructors under the bus should have his or her credentials pulled by the NRA.

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

[sctman800]

Any NRA instructor who is trying to throw other NRA instructors under the bus should have his or her credentials pulled by the NRA.

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

 

 

And I have little doubt that would happen, at least one serious talking to or probation. Jim.

[MGF]

I would agree that public throwing another NRA trainer under the bus is wrong.

With that said, I think there is nothing wrong with advising the public to ask an NRA trainer, or any firearm trainer, about his creds, time in, number of students trained or classes conducted, references, etc.

If someone's insecure about answering those questions...that would be a red flag to me as a student. And I've sought out and paid for quite a bit of my own training.

I work with people with LEO and military backgrounds all the time. Sometimes I'm the first lecturer of the day. I have no problem saying "I'm entirely civilian, very much NRA, these are my creds and training, and my experience teaching is X. Later, you will hear from some people with other perspectives."

I instruct largely on weekends. I work with one group fairly regularly and the rest of the weekends are call-outs from some of my TCs and and other, experienced friends. Sometimes they are a person short or have a larger than class, and they ring me up. If the calendar is open, I go.

I have no problems discussing my creds or experience with a student or a class, nor deferring a question to a better source.

[Mr. Fife]

The article makes it sound like an NRA Basic Pistol instructor who just received his or her credentials is somehow unable to answer basic questions about what to do after a shooting, or how to store a firearm, etc.

 

So what’s the problem, and why should you care?

Carrying a firearm is a huge responsibility. When can you use it? How do you use it? What is the aftermath of a shooting? What do you do with the gun when you can’t take it in with you? Who has access to it? What happens if someone else gets your gun? These and many other questions need to be covered by instructors.

 

To me, this sounds a bit condescending. The NRA is the foremost authority on gun safety, and if they feel you are good enough to train people, and the State of Illinois feels they are good enough to train people, I don't see what his problem is.

 

He also implies that NRA Basic Pistol instructors are going to cut corners just because one instructor in Missouri did, and that you would be geting a shortcut course.

Naturally, there was no mention of seasoned instructors who have done something stupid or unsafe in this article.

[MGF]

The article makes it sound like an NRA Basic Pistol instructor who just received his or her credentials is somehow unable to answer basic questions about what to do after a shooting, or how to store a firearm, etc.

 

So what’s the problem, and why should you care?

Carrying a firearm is a huge responsibility. When can you use it? How do you use it? What is the aftermath of a shooting? What do you do with the gun when you can’t take it in with you? Who has access to it? What happens if someone else gets your gun? These and many other questions need to be covered by instructors.

 

To me, this sounds a bit condescending. The NRA is the foremost authority on gun safety, and if they feel you are good enough to train people, and the State of Illinois feels they are good enough to train people, I don't see what his problem is.

 

He also implies that NRA Basic Pistol instructors are going to cut corners just because one instructor in Missouri did, and that you would be geting a shortcut course.

Naturally, there was no mention of seasoned instructors who have done something stupid or unsafe in this article.

 

As to "how the article makes it sound," take it up with him if you are so motivated. He's the author. And by the way, it is not a news article with information solicited by a reporter. It is a column that ran with the author's photo on the opinion page. We run guest columns submitted by readers, no less, and usually more, than once a week.

 

From my own point of view, if someone did rush to get an NRA BP instructors cert just to teach concealed carry, that would come up with them when I was selecting my instructor. "How long have you been an NRA instructor? Three months -- huh." And I'd be on down the list to my next phone call.

 

And, honestly, if anyone were to make the argument that a newly minted NRA BP instructor with no other creds is going to be able to train to the same level as an NRA instructor and TC who's certified for basic pistol, advanced defensive pistol, PPiH, PPoH and CRSO, I reserve the right to remain skeptical. If, per chance, some newish NRA BP-only instructor, does wish to make argument that experience and certifications matter not at all, I reserve the right to grin and walk away.

 

I'm strongly pro-NRA, a life/patron member and a contributor whenever I can be. I don't believe, though, that the NRA waves a wand over every new NRA instructor making him or her equally experienced and excellent. That takes time, experience and continuing ed, in my opinion.

[Mr. Fife]

Yeah, I figured out that he was the author and I don't fault you for printing or agreeing with any of it. I'm just saying what it sounds like to me. I've had by BP certs for several years now, so I'm not really one of the subject instructors of the article, but I usually start out sticking up for the little guy and working man until I learn more.

 

Of course there are going to be different levels of training We've even heard stories of different levels of Training Counselors. While I didn't have a TC like Rocco, I think I had a pretty good TC who taught me very well. Are all TCs of the same quality? NO... Are all TCs able to teach somebody how to become a BP instructor? YES... that's the least common denominator. You're either certified, or you're not.

 

All I'm saying is that the article makes it sound like brand new instructors aren't able to teach CCW as well as others. On this board, that represents a significant portion of the membership here. Some are even police and/or military trained. I'm sticking up for the newly trained CCW instructors. If the NRA says they are good to go, that works for me.

 

Ask Rocco if he thinks that instructors that he trained this year are any less capable than another instructor trained by a different TC two years ago.

 

I don't have any desire to post my own article or rebuttal to The Southern, and since commenting requires a Facebook account, I'm okay with just adding my comments to the story here.

 

ETA: If you look at the tags assigned to that article, you are drawing an awful lot of traffic to a story that puts the NRA in a bad light. Just sayin'.

[soundguy]

Everyone should play nice, or they shouldn't be allowed to play.

 

In a strange sort of way, I almost have a problem with SF trainers and other competent elite professionals training Illinoisans how to survive in a firefight or become a gun fighter as part of the CCW class. I would like much more to see training be a pure thing... Safe gun handling... Laws of Illinois... Consequences of legally employing your gun in the event of an attack...

 

A tactical course that qualifies one for CCW seems far more dangerous to me than NRA BP.

[papa]

Everyone should play nice, or they shouldn't be allowed to play.

 

In a strange sort of way, I almost have a problem with SF trainers and other competent elite professionals training Illinoisans how to survive in a firefight or become a gun fighter as part of the CCW class. I would like much more to see training be a pure thing... Safe gun handling... Laws of Illinois... Consequences of legally employing your gun in the event of an attack...

 

A tactical course that qualifies one for CCW seems far more dangerous to me than NRA BP.

 

Very well said soundguy.