Over 9 YEARS Ago you were warned

[mauserme]

 

Are you really trying to imply that only people who are neutral should be considered normal? That gun right activists are abnormal?What of environmental and sexual orientation activists?

Not at all. I’ll try again-

 

We need the votes of normal folks in the middle.

 

The number of far right, patriotic, 2A loving, nothing more fun than blowing off a couple hundred rounds in an afternoon wearing my 5.11 tactical tighty whities, gun nuts is FINITE.

 

The number of far left progressive bearded men in Brooklyn who make good coffee but hate things that go bang almost as much as they love the NY Times is also FINITE.

 

Neither has enough votes to flat out win. Repeating myself for the umpteenth time, we (gun nuts) are doing a poor job of influencing the middle to vote for folks who will not happily nuke 2A rights.

 

My old neighbor (the Donald) has galvanized the far left and activated enough of the very normal middle to kick our butts sideways in the last election cycle. To be clear- I voted for him. Probably as an “anybody but Hillary” choice. I think he is a deplorable leader and has done the country a small pile of harm. The republic will survive him as it has survived all sorts of idiocy.

 

His Supreme Court picks will protect most 2A rights at national level. Illinois (like NY and CA) is probably screwed. Only way to get unscrewed is to elect more people who are “center-right”. Note than “Center” comes first.

 

We have a professional lobbyist as a member. I’ll bet $1 that he knows the numbers on voting demographics like the back of his hand. Ask him how we should go about winning. I’ll bet another $1 it has more to do with expanding a Center right middle than activating a noisy base of gun nuts.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

 

I'm still trying to understand you.

 

Trump hasn't done anything for our rights. I agree to the extent that he's made no direct changes.

 

Would someone to the right of Trump then possibly do something more for our rights but, at the same time be even more "wacko fringe" than he in your books? Where, on the "wacko fringe scale", does that put this forum in your estimation?

You skipped this in favor of answering the same question twice.

[chicagoresident]

Not at all. Ill try again-

 

We need the votes of normal folks in the middle.

 

The number of far right, patriotic, 2A loving, nothing more fun than blowing off a couple hundred rounds in an afternoon wearing my 5.11 tactical tighty whities, gun nuts is FINITE.

 

The number of far left progressive bearded men in Brooklyn who make good coffee but hate things that go bang almost as much as they love the NY Times is also FINITE.

 

Neither has enough votes to flat out win. Repeating myself for the umpteenth time, we (gun nuts) are doing a poor job of influencing the middle to vote for folks who will not happily nuke 2A rights.

 

 

Centrism doesn't win elections anymore, the parties and the country are too ideologically divided.

 

Elections are not won by swing votes, they're won by energizing your base. Candidates win or lose based on if their party shows up and votes. That's why we have so much theatrics and hyperbole because it makes for good voting rallys even if it makes the opposite voters think your paint chip licking insane.

 

The worst thing you can do for electibility in this age is compromise or appease the other party. It's basically a balancing act of pleasing the corporations that stake you and pleasing your voter base that has to show up to win.

 

The centrist is a dying breed. The average centrist tends to be a bit older, very invested in the economy, and financially dependent on maintaining the current status quo of business running politics. They're one of the few that understands the inside baseball of the current system, but benefits too much to want to change it.

 

Gun rights fit into rallying the Republican base simply because it enrages the left. It represents rural, self reliance, and limiting government. Why do such immoral politicians play Christians? Same reason, it's the base. It's why Obama's God and Guns comment, while meant to be derogatory is spot on. It means a lot to the base, it is the only thing working class Republicans have to find hope. So it is important if you want to win.

[Raw Power]

 

Trump didn't do anything for gun rights, neither did the Republican Congress for 2 years. If a charlatan like Trump didn't work (who has talked about gun control his entire life, even though he owns a hard to get firearms permit in New York), how much further to the wacko fringes do we need to go?

I'm still trying to understand you.

 

Trump hasn't done anything for our rights. I agree to the extent that he's made no direct changes.

 

Would someone to the right of Trump then possibly do something more for our rights but, at the same time be even more "wacko fringe" than he in your books? Where, on the "wacko fringe scale", does that put this forum in your estimation?

 

 

 

Trump has no interest in the 2nd amendment. However, people continue to support him on a 2nd amendment site because they like his culture war. I have no interest in that culture war.

 

It gains me nothing.

 

I don't see Trump as right wing. I see Trump as an opportunist, who will lie, cheat, steal, and swindle the American people for his own personal gain, and the personal gain of his family and associates. He is a crony capitalist in the truest sense.

[mauserme]

Trump has no interest in the 2nd amendment. However, people continue to support him on a 2nd amendment site because they like his culture war. I have no interest in that culture war.

 

It gains me nothing.

 

I don't see Trump as right wing. I see Trump as an opportunist, who will lie, cheat, steal, and swindle the American people for his own personal gain, and the personal gain of his family and associates. He is a crony capitalist in the truest sense.

The question about Trump is whether someone to his right would be stronger on 2A issues. You seem to agree that he isn't conservative enough on that count.

 

And what of us? What of IllinoisCarry? You've used the term wacko fringe often enough on the forum. It's time to define whether or not you include this organization in that group.

[JTHunter]

I doubt that it will ever come to all of that.

 

Stop and think about that for a second. In every country that has gone socialist (China, Russia, Burma, Venezuela, etc.) and many of those that are being perverted into socialism, what is one of the first things they do? Disarm the populace ! We can see it happening even now in the UK, Sweden, Australia, New Zealand, and making big inroads here as well. At least one man has been killed (in MD) over these "red flag" laws. A relative that had argued with this man called in a "red flag" to get payback on this relative. When the cops showed up at ~5:15 a.m., the man reacted poorly at being awakened and was killed by the cops. I haven't heard if the relative that called it in has suffered any repercussions.

 

Have you heard of somebody being "swatted"? Much the same. People have been killed.

 

I'm afraid it is a matter of time before this happens to an even greater degree.

[BigJim]

 

I doubt that it will ever come to all of that. Stop and think about that for a second. In every country that has gone socialist (China, Russia, Burma, Venezuela, etc.) and many of those that are being perverted into socialism, what is one of the first things they do? Disarm the populace ! We can see it happening even now in the UK, Sweden, Australia, New Zealand, and making big inroads here as well. At least one man has been killed (in MD) over these "red flag" laws. A relative that had argued with this man called in a "red flag" to get payback on this relative. When the cops showed up at ~5:15 a.m., the man reacted poorly at being awakened and was killed by the cops. I haven't heard if the relative that called it in has suffered any repercussions.

Why would there be repercussions? The guy was dangerous and pulled a gun on the cops. Seems the red flag worked as intended. (Now if I could figure out how to do purple in Tapatalk I could color this post purple.)Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[rmart]

 

Trump has no interest in the 2nd amendment. However, people continue to support him on a 2nd amendment site because they like his culture war. I have no interest in that culture war.

 

It gains me nothing.

 

I don't see Trump as right wing. I see Trump as an opportunist, who will lie, cheat, steal, and swindle the American people for his own personal gain, and the personal gain of his family and associates. He is a crony capitalist in the truest sense.

 

 

'Trump's culture war'...

War has been declared on our culture for decades and NOW we're going to assign ownership to Trump? I don't support Trump for 2nd Amendment, culture, border wall, whatever 'extremist' issues the left is trying to pin on him.

I support him because the available alternatives at that time and now are just so much worse. The last president I voted for was Reagan. Every president since never deserved my vote and only got it because a delaying action is always preferable to retreat or surrender.

 

The time to be 'moderate' or 'centrist' is long gone. In fact, it's the reason we're at where we're at today. Too many 'open-minded' Republicans who just want to get along did not recognize there has been an ongoing war against our culture and our constitution for decades. The majority never noticed that the Democrats NEVER compromised and every time the Republicans did we slipped further left. Those that did notice were called crackpots and conspiracy theorists. Interesting to note that tin-foil hat statements of the past are now the news today. We should've listened. Our nation is now fairly evenly divided between right, center, and left. Centrists have become statistically irrelevant, especially when their are three schools of thought and only a two-party system. Centrists gave us Bill Clinton and Barack Obama by throwing moderate Republicans into the mix that were too indistinguishable from Democrats. At best they were Democrat lite.

 

Trump is a liar, probably amoral, and no conservative. But, he had to be elected in order to prevent the much worse option from winning.

 

American patriots fail to realize our 'culture war' is actually a spiritual battle against good and evil, not just a battle against left and right or progressivism and conservatism. We're fighting the wrong enemy and tearing ourselves apart from within.

[45Badger]

Are you really trying to imply that only people who are neutral should be considered normal? That gun right activists are abnormal?What of environmental and sexual orientation activists?Not at all. I’ll try again-We need the votes of normal folks in the middle.The number of far right, patriotic, 2A loving, nothing more fun than blowing off a couple hundred rounds in an afternoon wearing my 5.11 tactical tighty whities, gun nuts is FINITE.The number of far left progressive bearded men in Brooklyn who make good coffee but hate things that go bang almost as much as they love the NY Times is also FINITE.Neither has enough votes to flat out win. Repeating myself for the umpteenth time, we (gun nuts) are doing a poor job of influencing the middle to vote for folks who will not happily nuke 2A rights.My old neighbor (the Donald) has galvanized the far left and activated enough of the very normal middle to kick our butts sideways in the last election cycle. To be clear- I voted for him. Probably as an “anybody but Hillary” choice. I think he is a deplorable leader and has done the country a small pile of harm. The republic will survive him as it has survived all sorts of idiocy.His Supreme Court picks will protect most 2A rights at national level. Illinois (like NY and CA) is probably screwed. Only way to get unscrewed is to elect more people who are “center-right”. Note than “Center” comes first.We have a professional lobbyist as a member. I’ll bet $1 that he knows the numbers on voting demographics like the back of his hand. Ask him how we should go about winning. I’ll bet another $1 it has more to do with expanding a Center right middle than activating a noisy base of gun nuts.Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI'm still trying to understand you.Trump hasn't done anything for our rights. I agree to the extent that he's made no direct changes.Would someone to the right of Trump then possibly do something more for our rights but, at the same time be even more "wacko fringe" than he in your books? Where, on the "wacko fringe scale", does that put this forum in your estimation?You skipped this in favor of answering the same question twice.

 

I’m to the right of the Donald on every issue but his little culture war on immigration. I don’t crap on my friends/allies. I don’t play cute games with minor and major despots. I don’t talk about grabbing women (or men) by the genitalia. I don’t lie to cover my butt (mostly because I don’t do anything that requires butt covering). I don’t dissemble. I don’t incite white nationalist racist idiots. I don’t give them any political cover.

 

I don’t think I’m unique. Normal conservatives (aka normal people, aka normal center right voters) do not do these things. I think that most folks on this forum are normal. I think some are off their rockers or meds. Normal, center right voters want nothing to do with some of the positions the whackos and trump espouse. Last November proved that.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BobPistol]

 

Not at all. I’ll try again-

 

We need the votes of normal folks in the middle.

 

The number of far right, patriotic, 2A loving, nothing more fun than blowing off a couple hundred rounds in an afternoon wearing my 5.11 tactical tighty whities, gun nuts is FINITE.

 

 

 

 

The latter keep using the "molon lame" argument for 2A and that argument does not work on the former.

When the 2A debate is framed as a human right to self defense narrative, the normal folks in the middle will come to our side.

[BigJim]

 

The latter keep using the "molon lame" argument for 2A and that argument does not work on the former.When the 2A debate is framed as a human right to self defense narrative, the normal folks in the middle will come to our side.

I don't know if I agree with that. More and more people are opting to play the victim card than defend themselves and risk being labeled a hater. Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[nulloverride]

I'll agree that getting more centrists and normies on our side is key. Fortunately, the Left is getting so insane that should not be hard at all. It's already doing half the work for us. They will literally go where there's fewer crazy people. So the answer isn't to go further toward the fringes of the Right. That's the opposite of what needs to happen. I think it's past time for 3rd parties to be a valid choice. Failing that, the Republicans need to drop some of their stodgy ways and support decriminalizing recreational drugs, backing off some of this rhetoric around immigration, and dropping some of the dogmatic policies and start being rational about the economy, healthcare and environment. Would love it if a bunch of right/center people ran who wanted to cut the red tape for nuclear power and offer an alternative "Green New Deal" that offered clean energy without the identitarian bulls*** being pushed by the new leftists in congress.

 

To be clear I don't know what the answer is for some of the changes I mentioned above. Both sides have their scripture on the issues and I don't think either one has the right answer. My point is simply that we need people who will really examine the issues and come up with thoughtful solutions to things that are problems, while also protecting our rights.

[Raw Power]

 

Trump has no interest in the 2nd amendment. However, people continue to support him on a 2nd amendment site because they like his culture war. I have no interest in that culture war.

 

It gains me nothing.

 

I don't see Trump as right wing. I see Trump as an opportunist, who will lie, cheat, steal, and swindle the American people for his own personal gain, and the personal gain of his family and associates. He is a crony capitalist in the truest sense.

The question about Trump is whether someone to his right would be stronger on 2A issues. You seem to agree that he isn't conservative enough on that count.

 

And what of us? What of IllinoisCarry? You've used the term wacko fringe often enough on the forum. It's time to define whether or not you include this organization in that group.

 

 

 

This is not a left/right issue...

 

If I considered this organization a wacko fringe, I would not have contributed money to it. I don't know what you are attempting to call out here.

 

I am clear on my dislike for the current president and his stance against the 2nd amendment. I am willing to back that opinion up with facts and actions he has taken. If you wish to keep supporting him, that's your personal right, but he's not a friend of the 2nd amendment in any form.

[vito]

I chose President Trump for my vote on the basis of three facts: he would nominate reasonable justices to the Supreme Court and the rest of the federal judiciary; he believed that illegal immigration was a serious issue that needed to be addressed; and he was not Hilary Clinton. While he might not be a true friend of the 2nd Amendment, the alternative candidate is a clear enemy. I hope the Republicans advance gun rights, but if they do not, I count on them to basically not embrace things that would be to our detriment, whereas there is no question that the Democrats have as a major part of their agenda the shredding of the 2nd Amendment. Sometimes it is a matter of choosing the lesser of evils.

[Jeffrey]

If he was not a friend to the 2A he wouldn’t nominate constitutional judges.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jim123]

 

 

Trump didn't do anything for gun rights, neither did the Republican Congress for 2 years. If a charlatan like Trump didn't work (who has talked about gun control his entire life, even though he owns a hard to get firearms permit in New York), how much further to the wacko fringes do we need to go?

I'm still trying to understand you.

 

Trump hasn't done anything for our rights. I agree to the extent that he's made no direct changes.

 

Would someone to the right of Trump then possibly do something more for our rights but, at the same time be even more "wacko fringe" than he in your books? Where, on the "wacko fringe scale", does that put this forum in your estimation?

 

 

 

Trump has no interest in the 2nd amendment. However, people continue to support him on a 2nd amendment site because they like his culture war. I have no interest in that culture war.

 

It gains me nothing.

 

I don't see Trump as right wing. I see Trump as an opportunist, who will lie, cheat, steal, and swindle the American people for his own personal gain, and the personal gain of his family and associates. He is a crony capitalist in the truest sense.

 

[45Badger]

If he was not a friend to the 2A he wouldn’t nominate constitutional judges.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

The second amendment isn’t at the top of his or Republican Party’s list of why they want “originalists”. It’s the money.

 

Simple math is I have mine, you’re welcome to try to get yours as long as it doesn’t impact mine. And you can’t have it or give away mine.

 

Nothing wrong with that in theory (or maybe even practice) but don’t kid yourself that “they” care about the same things you do. And remember, as much as people think they “earned” their social security and Medicare benefits, both programs are huge wealth transfers.

 

See above to note conflict in who pays for and who gets those entitlements. Originalists didn’t come up with those programs.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FF1984]

 

The latter keep using the "molon lame" argument for 2A and that argument does not work on the former. When the 2A debate is framed as a human right to self defense narrative, the normal folks in the middle will come to our side.

I don't know if I agree with that. More and more people are opting to play the victim card than defend themselves and risk being labeled a hater. Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

This. It is becoming socially advantageous to be a victim. If someone is self sufficient and does not accept a victim label they are even viewed as odd or worse..a finger is pointed in their direction by the victims as being complicit. In some cases if you are not a victim you must be part of the problem. It is also advantageous to be a victim when it comes to politics. A victim or "at risk" group is usually promised special treatment by politicians with regard to laws, funding, programs, etc.

 

I do agree that framing it as a human right (because it is) to defend yourself is the right way to approach it. But defending yourself implies you don't "need" the help and salvation provided by a large and powerful government. How many times have we heard a self defense shooting and people claim if the defender didn't have a gun that no one would have died? Obviously, they are guessing but if they weren't a victim they are somehow complicit. We have a message but so do they.

 

The media (mainstream and social) controls what the populace sees and hears. We can frame it however we want but unless it reaches the middle of the road voter, especially without going through the filter of those that want huge government restrictions, they'll either never hear it or they'll see painted in a bad light. We can't get CNN to show the 2A in a positive light so we jump to social media...which is now beginning to be heavily censored in favor of lefty/big gov/victim viewpoints.

 

We can frame it as a human right all we want but it's gets re-framed or outright omitted by the left prior to getting to the intended audience. The question is, how do we get the message to "normal folks in middle" unmolested by those that are against it?

[PeepSight]

 

 

The latter keep using the "molon lame" argument for 2A and that argument does not work on the former. When the 2A debate is framed as a human right to self defense narrative, the normal folks in the middle will come to our side.

I don't know if I agree with that. More and more people are opting to play the victim card than defend themselves and risk being labeled a hater. Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

This. It is becoming socially advantageous to be a victim. If someone is self sufficient and does not accept a victim label they are even viewed as odd or worse..a finger is pointed in their direction by the victims as being complicit. In some cases if you are not a victim you must be part of the problem. It is also advantageous to be a victim when it comes to politics. A victim or "at risk" group is usually promised special treatment by politicians with regard to laws, funding, programs, etc.

 

I do agree that framing it as a human right (because it is) to defend yourself is the right way to approach it. But defending yourself implies you don't "need" the help and salvation provided by a large and powerful government. How many times have we heard a self defense shooting and people claim if the defender didn't have a gun that no one would have died? Obviously, they are guessing but if they weren't a victim they are somehow complicit. We have a message but so do they.

 

The media (mainstream and social) controls what the populace sees and hears. We can frame it however we want but unless it reaches the middle of the road voter, especially without going through the filter of those that want huge government restrictions, they'll either never hear it or they'll see painted in a bad light. We can't get CNN to show the 2A in a positive light so we jump to social media...which is now beginning to be heavily censored in favor of lefty/big gov/victim viewpoints.

 

We can frame it as a human right all we want but it's gets re-framed or outright omitted by the left prior to getting to the intended audience. The question is, how do we get the message to "normal folks in middle" unmolested by those that are against it?

 

 

 

I know this has been done before but why not billboards on highly trafficked thru ways? Probably seems simplistic/dumb but it is done everywhere because it works. Message would be "loud & clear" with zero filter.

[Vodoun da Vinci]

If we are going to keep our guns and our Rights, we'll need all the help and people we can get. I'm a Leftist/Liberal who owns guns,carries, and shoots regularly. And I'm not alone - There are dozens of US in my family and neighborhood alone.

 

We gun owners and pro 2A aficionados need to *STOP* labeling everyone who is Left of center as a Socialist, a Communist, a Democrat, and a gun grabbing Snowflake.

 

Cause yer alienating a significant number of folks who can help US keep our gun rights. FWIW, the Democrats beat themselves in 2016 by elevating an un electable candidate that was not the choice of Democrats. They forced a loser and lost. The Democrats are not Liberals as a party anymore - Hillary actually scores further right and more authoritarian than Trump. This battle is not Democrats vs Republicans, Liberals vs Conservatives. It's literally US vs Them.

 

Them being the Government that is forcing illegal and unconstitutional laws to forcibly disarm honest and law abiding citizens. The problem isn't yer Snowflake next door neighbor. The problem is your Oligarchy owned and operated Government that wants those trillions of dollars in the accounts of Baby Boomers and Gen Xers who are set to transfer decades of hard work and savings to their kids and grandkids.

 

And the Oligarchy wants that money and wealth. All of it. And they want US disarmed so they can take it. Just sayin'. We live in a hyper connected culture that is driving some of US insane enough to murder our coworkers, classmates, family, and anyone who disagrees with US on Religion, Politics, etc. Some dimwits think that by banning guns we will stop the insanity but it will exacerbate the sickness by adding even more rules and laws to a culture that is overwhelmed with change, being powerless, and vulnerable. The Power Mongers are using our sick culture against US to separate and segregate US against each other so they can fleece US. Stop hating yer neighbor and start making a unified plan to stop this insanity because once we are disarmed a door will be opened that may never get closed again.

 

VooDoo

[vito]

I can't take anyway seriously who says they support gun rights but identifies as a Leftist, aka Democrat. The Democrat Party is committed to gun control as a step on the road to gun confiscation. Voting for Democrats at the national level, i.e. the Presidency or Congress, is tantamount to supporting the repeal of the 2nd Amendment. You need to decide if you support gun rights or you support Liberalism. There is no way to do both.

[chicagoresident]

I can't take anyway seriously who says they support gun rights but identifies as a Leftist, aka Democrat. The Democrat Party is committed to gun control as a step on the road to gun confiscation. Voting for Democrats at the national level, i.e. the Presidency or Congress, is tantamount to supporting the repeal of the 2nd Amendment. You need to decide if you support gun rights or you support Liberalism. There is no way to do both.

 

If we are going to keep our guns and our Rights, we'll need all the help and people we can get. I'm a Leftist/Liberal who owns guns,carries, and shoots regularly. And I'm not alone - There are dozens of US in my family and neighborhood alone.

 

I think IC members are doing a huge disservice generalizing the left as being anti gun. The corporate owned centrist left is antigun. Just like many centrist right politicians do lip service to guns but still infringe. Corporate owned centrists are the enemy, not the far left and far right. Horseshoe theory.

 

The basic summation of the left is we demand more value from the government because they're going to charge us taxes anyways.

 

The basic summation of the right is we demand to pay less taxes because the government provides us no value.

 

As long as there are gun owners under both ideologies and there's always the threat of armed revolution we can find a neutral compromise where there's more for us citizens and less for the government and their cronys.

 

Without guns we get corporate centrism.

 

Corporate centrism is the government demands more taxes so they can give it to corporations. Because this is bad they're going to take away your speech and your guns so you can't do a thing about it. They'll dogwhistle racism everytime they take your speech away. They'll call you a socialist everytime you criticize giving tax dollars and tax breaks to billionaires. They'll call you a socialist for saying you want to organize labor for higher wages, then they'll call you a racist when they deliberately import and keep labor undocumented to lower the average wage. They run our social programs like capitalists giving tax dollars as corporate welfare, and they run our capitalism like socialist command economies fixing markets so any entrepreneur without government connections won't stand a chance.

 

Unless you are dependent on government dollars in some way you should be a single issue gun voter because it's the only resistance you have against losing the system completely. It's why the 2nd ammendment exists.

 

Over a hundred year history there are strong examples of both parties chipping away rights because there is no longer a party of limited government and there's no longer a party of limited corporations. Gun rights are a threat to a monopoly on power held by both.

 

Beware of the centrists that call any of the ideas above radical, tinfoil hattery, or dogwhistle socialism or racism for any policy that actually benefits we the people. They are not your friends.

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I'm not a Democrat - The Democrat Party is *not* Liberal. They are Corporatists and Oligarchs masquerading as Liberals. That's why they lost in 2016.

 

I'm a Liberal Gun Owner and a Pro 2A voter who has no party to vote for. So should I do like 1/2 of Americans do and not vote? Can't vote for Republicans because I'm not for their values - can't vote for Democrats because they are not Liberals and want my guns so that when the Republicans eliminate Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and let helath care costs double, and double again, and double again I can't even protect myself or family when we are living on the street.

 

Or being herded into a boxcar because we are being sent to a labor camp because we don't have any money left.

 

It's not black and white anymore if it ever was - there are no bumper sticker solutions to what ails America. I have no one to vote for...no party represents me, no politicians respect me. They are not protecting my Rights, nor are they protecting the Constitution.

 

So it's vote Republican or I have no credibility? I'd suggest we learn to find some common ground (like Keeping our 2A Rights) instead of insulting or discrediting everyone who does not subscribe to our ideology and politics. Because divided we *will* fall....we are failing in keeping our Rights. We need choices and action. We need to make politicians accountable for their actions. We need to protect ours 2A rights and that will not be a Republican nor a Democrat solution. It's not that simple.

 

VooDoo

[vito]

Of course it means voting Republican or give up your gun rights. Even with Republicans we might end up losing some ground, but it is assured if Democrats are in power. Not voting is an option, but then you are specifically declining the chance to influence policy that ultimately will decide if we keep our guns legally or can only retain them in violation of the law. Reminds of all those claiming to be Conservative and then saying that they could never support Trump because he is coarse, or mean, or has orange hair or whatever, which was basically saying that they would be happier if Hilary the Witch had been elected President. We don't get to choose between Pure Good and Pure Evil. In politics, we usually have to choose between "moderately good" versus "likely evil" or words to that effect.

 

Personally its easy for me. Gun rights is my "litmus test". The Democrat Party wants to take away my rights, the Republicans might not be enthusiastic supporters of those rights but they do not preach that they will take the rights away. And onThe EVERY other issue I find that the Republican position, even if not exactly what I would like, is the superior position compared with what the Democrats say they wish to accomplish. The Democrat Party is the party of gun control, infanticide, open borders, increased taxes and the size and scope of government, appeasement abroad and softness on crime. Not one of those positions is acceptable to me, so I will vote Republican whenever given the chance to vote, regardless of the individual representing that Party.

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Not to be combative but this is exactly why we have dismal prospects as candidates and why we have Trump as president. They have (Democrats or Republicans) absolutely no incentive to offer us candidates with integrity or guts because they know we will vote for the junk they offer us *right* along party lines. They give us people who will not represent US and we vote for them using a single issue be that issue abortion, gun control, smaller government, or free cheese. Doesn't matter how bad the candidate is we'll vote for him according to D or R no matter what.

 

I'm sorry I even opened my mouth. Neither side will compromise so we'll get what we get.

 

And it won't be good. 1/2 of America doesn't vote because there is no one to vote for with integrity and the other 1/2 that does vote is split right in half which means that without compromise only 25% of the voters will get what they want. Good luck.

 

VooDoo

[modeler1945]

there is no longer a party of limited government and there's no longer a party of limited corporations.

Sure there is, the Libertarian party. There is no MAINSTREAM part of limit government or corporations.

 

And because Americans vote for the two main parties, nothing will ever change. The definition of insanity applies here I believe.

[chicagoresident]

Of course it means voting Republican or give up your gun rights. Even with Republicans we might end up losing some ground, but it is assured if Democrats are in power. Not voting is an option, but then you are specifically declining the chance to influence policy that ultimately will decide if we keep our guns legally or can only retain them in violation of the law.

 

There are those on the left and right that believe we're way past the point of no return when it comes to our gun rights and government overreach. Tons of right leaning members here didn't bother voting for Rauner, privately and publicly, so not everyone subscribes to this "have to vote xxxx" theory.

 

Spoken by several patriots and in several variations

There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury and ammo. Please use in that order

 

When all you have to say about Trump is "at least he picked good judges" it means we're on our third option. When the rallying cry in several states is "we will not comply" because we haven't gotten our case to override states infringing we're approaching the 4th option. Voting isn't everything for everyone.

 

Watch 2020 to see the antigun lobby throw money at and flip Republicans. I'll be making the same "you were warned" post.

 

If you think I'm wrong, not in words but actions I'd be happy to call out every republican politician, including everyone's beloved Reagan, that got us to where we are today.

[vito]

And what do you propose we do to make this situation better? I belong to, and financially contribute to the NRA and GOA. I frequently write Letters to the Editor and have had some success in getting my letters printed both in the Rockford Register Star and the Chicago Tribune, on occasion. I write to my Congressman (a reasonably Conservative Republican) and donate to his re-election campaign. I don't bother with my U.S. Senators since both are beyond help as supporters of the Far Left. And I am prepared to participate in peaceful civil disobedience when such is necessary and more if the time ever comes that such is the only course of action open to us.

[chicagoresident]

And what do you propose we do to make this situation better? I belong to, and financially contribute to the NRA and GOA. I frequently write Letters to the Editor and have had some success in getting my letters printed both in the Rockford Register Star and the Chicago Tribune, on occasion. I write to my Congressman (a reasonably Conservative Republican) and donate to his re-election campaign. I don't bother with my U.S. Senators since both are beyond help as supporters of the Far Left. And I am prepared to participate in peaceful civil disobedience when such is necessary and more if the time ever comes that such is the only course of action open to us.

 

Observe the spectrum of the left, from centrists to tankies. Emulate their textbook Sal Alinsky tactics to fight the fake "resistance" on the corporate left/3rd way/neoliberal/corporate left. Expose the corporate interests, expose the levels of corruption they go to solicit donations and unfairly influence.

 

Then amplify the voices of the further left pro gun movements. I intentionally bounce between left and right social media spheres to rile people up to adopt new tactics for 2nd ammendment rights. FYI the pro gun leftisfs refuse to vote for antigun centrist candidates.

 

I don't really subscribe to left and right, but I try to use Social Media, donations to a bunch of left and right 2nd ammendment organizations, I donate to a lobbiest, a handful of politicians that have uncompromising 2md ammendment voting records, etc.

 

But most importantly I try to convince my left leaning friends and associates that you don't have to be Republicans to like guns. I frame the argument against gun control as factually affecting the disenfranchised minorities and trampling the civil liberties they love to uphold. And I bluntly put if you stand for gun control you're an enemy in my eyes. Most of my left leaning friends don't vote for the mainstream leftists anyways so it's not like theyre taking anything away from us. As I posted before Dem's aren't costing you elections, uninspiring Republicans are.

 

I also try to convince right leaning people that there is a small but growing gun culture on the left that needs to be nurtured even if you don't agree on anything else. Obviously the big money gun control interests have suppressed growing dissent on the left, especially areas like the 2nd ammendment.

 

It didn't used to be this way, the left and right used to be armed.

[rmart]

YOU may not be a socialist or an extreme leftist but by continually voting for a party that is continually pushing a progressive leftist agenda you are enabling them.

Do you think your taxes are too high? You like your guns? Hate seeing crime going up, your property values going down, and the freakish behavior that is continually growing on the left? Then you either need to work to rein in your own party or stop voting for them. As long as they keep getting elected they believe YOU have given them a mandate and the authority to continue their ravages. And, as long as they keep going more and more left the right will continue to move more and more right.

 

The 'extreme' right didn't exist in the 80's. What leftists refer to as right-wing extremism, fascism (irony there...) and other extreme terms is a direct response to to the left's continual 'death by a thousand cuts' pushing of a leftist agenda. The right refuses to compromise? Feh, conservatives have been compromising with the left since the 60's and look where we are now. MUCH further left than we were then. Seriously, at what point in the last fifty (100) years have we actually shifted right again? Don't bother pointing to occasional republican victories, once they're in office they do nothing to swing the pendulum back.

 

No, if you don't want an extreme right then quit calling the left mainstream and work to bring them back to the center. Our 'center' is MUCH further to the left than it was fifty years ago and with the exception of improvements in civil rights of minorities, there is no evidence to show that the shift is actually progress.

 

I want a party that follows and limits themselves to the Constitution. We've gone too far off the rails for that to happen without another revolutionary/civil war.

 

And for that matter, since when is supporting and demanding a government follow the Constitution an extreme position?

[sailor]

Sure there is, the Libertarian party. There is no MAINSTREAM part of limit government or corporations.

 

 

 

 

And because Americans vote for the two main parties, nothing will ever change. The definition of insanity applies here I believe.

 

I've been a card carrying Libertarian Party member since 1990 or so. Studied history in university, among other things, two of my focuses being the constitutional legal development of the United States and classical ancient history (topics that have some relation). I saw how Democrats and Republicans have largely been variations of the same equation through the post 37 period. I was a leader in our campus Libertarian group, petitioned, participated in many local and state organizing events, campaigned, preached and cajoled, sent money faithfully for decades, and otherwise supported the Libertarian Party. Unfortunately it's really no stronger than when I started. The LP has however now routinely achieved 50 state ballot access, which is a pretty sad metric of success. It is excessively difficult for a third party to achieve that due to the two dominant parties' machinations.

 

So yes, depressingly, Americans only vote for the two parties faithfully, unless there's a charismatic "strong man" alternative for whom to vote. The fact that our governments structurally (and thankfully) do not recognize faction, but only individuals, ironically leads to this. The best that third parties can do in the United States is inflict enough pain on one of the two dominant parties to cause one to change course enough to attract supporters away from the third party, thereby weakening it.

 

I do hope that the Democrats, by so strongly returning to their Wilsonian Progressive roots, are misreading the electorate and get sent a message. The alternative is that we are misreading the electorate, and it has changed enough to bring those Progressives back to power. But it isn't the early 1900s now. We live in the post-1937 world. The Supreme Court has only trimmed at the very edges of expanded federal power since Lopez so shocked everybody in 1995. A fully energized Progressive President and Congress today would be terrifying. I don't think even the current "conservative" majority would push back too hard, though the Roberts court has laid down some markers.

 

I descend from old-line families, many of whom arrived in the early 1600s on ships from England. As my grandmother said, religious whackos and criminals. I have ancestors who were in New York during the British occupation resisting, who spied for Washington on Long Island, who fought with Washington and were at Yorktown when Cornwallis surrendered. I feel pretty closely bound to the American experiment. It would be very sad to live through this nation marching over the cliff.