58 replies to this topic

[MagSlap]

Getting nuttier!

https://www.gunbroke...w=1&Timeframe=3

[Bubbacs]

I’m more concerned with defensive ammo
Found a few small outlets with old prices but a two box limit. I’m ok with not allowing one guy to hoard 1000 rounds of HST!
But I’m not into the whole target ammo right now anyway, just saying, those prices will come back to earth soon, maybe.
Same with 5.56, I need better stuff for protection, not the plinking stuff.

At least I hope some aren’t loading in FMJ 124 blazer into a carry piece!...........

[chislinger]

I'm OK with my small stock. About 3,000 rounds of .22 rimfire, over 1,000 rounds of .223/5.56 and about 400 rounds of 9mm. I have as much .40 as I feel like reloading.

 

Only thing I'm low on is 12 gauge target loads, but I doubt there's a big run on that.

[chislinger]

And I don't think this shortage will last very long, maybe a few months. It's not like the Obama panic.

Edited by chislinger, 25 March 2020 - 11:13 AM.

[MagSlap]

I'm fine with more FMJ than defense ammo...

Come the zombie apocalypse I wont mind a thru shot from one zombie to another...

[ChicagoRonin70]

I'm fine with more FMJ than defense ammo...

Come the zombie apocalypse I wont mind a thru shot from one zombie to another...

 

That's why I prefer solid-copper rotational-force fluid-transfer mechanism rounds. The best of all worlds.

 

[F12Mahon]

 

I'm fine with more FMJ than defense ammo...

Come the zombie apocalypse I wont mind a thru shot from one zombie to another...

 

That's why I prefer solid-copper rotational-force fluid-transfer mechanism rounds. The best of all worlds.

 

 

This look like screwdriver tips. And high velocity ones at that.

 

Eugene
 

[ChicagoRonin70]

 

 

I'm fine with more FMJ than defense ammo...

Come the zombie apocalypse I wont mind a thru shot from one zombie to another...

 

That's why I prefer solid-copper rotational-force fluid-transfer mechanism rounds. The best of all worlds.

 

 

This look like screwdriver tips. And high velocity ones at that.

 

Eugene
 

 

 

They do. I tested an approximation of how they work with a Phillips head bit welded to a vacuum cleaner motor at 20,000 rpm (about 1/5 the speed that a bullet rotates) by dumping chopped up chicken onto it. The fling-off stuck pieces of bone and tissue into wood.

 

Imagine five times as fast as that, moving through the body as it shoots off like a jet. It's like a water cutter inside the body. Not to mention the secondary wound tracks from bone and cartilage fragment shrapnel.

[MagSlap]

They do. I tested an approximation of how they work with a Phillips head bit welded to a vacuum cleaner motor at 20,000 rpm (about 1/5 the speed that a bullet rotates) by dumping chopped up chicken onto it. The fling-off stuck pieces of bone and tissue into wood.
 
Imagine five times as fast as that, moving through the body as it shoots off like a jet. It's like a water cutter inside the body. Not to mention the secondary wound tracks from bone and cartilage fragment shrapnel.

 
You...are my hero...

[NRApistol]

Just got this from Freedom Munitions:

https://www.youtube....eature=youtu.be

[Bubbacs]

 

I'm fine with more FMJ than defense ammo...

Come the zombie apocalypse I wont mind a thru shot from one zombie to another...

 

That's why I prefer solid-copper rotational-force fluid-transfer mechanism rounds. The best of all worlds.

 

 

I've seen and followed some descriptions of your firearms here

And seeing this description of your ammo :wink wink: doesn't surprise me

Please slow down on the chicken testing now as food is a hot commodity

Thanks

[ChicagoRonin70]

 

They do. I tested an approximation of how they work with a Phillips head bit welded to a vacuum cleaner motor at 20,000 rpm (about 1/5 the speed that a bullet rotates) by dumping chopped up chicken onto it. The fling-off stuck pieces of bone and tissue into wood.
 
Imagine five times as fast as that, moving through the body as it shoots off like a jet. It's like a water cutter inside the body. Not to mention the secondary wound tracks from bone and cartilage fragment shrapnel.

 
You...are my hero...

 

 

Well, I figured since I couldn't put a camera inside of the pig carcasses I was shooting and see how the mechanism worked in actual function, this was the next best thing.

 

My brain works in some interesting ways.

[ChicagoRonin70]

 

 

I'm fine with more FMJ than defense ammo...

Come the zombie apocalypse I wont mind a thru shot from one zombie to another...

 

That's why I prefer solid-copper rotational-force fluid-transfer mechanism rounds. The best of all worlds.

 

 

I've seen and followed some descriptions of your firearms here

And seeing this description of your ammo :wink wink: doesn't surprise me

Please slow down on the chicken testing now as food is a hot commodity

Thanks

 

 

I'm making chili out of it these days.

 

Frank's Buffalo Sauce is the magic ingredient.

 

[GT1]

Use real HD/PD ammo, not screwdriver tips.

Anyway, the ammo shortage is why some people reload, those guys that do and have been though one time of nothing planned ahead and ammo is no issue for them.

[ChicagoRonin70]

Use real HD/PD ammo, not screwdriver tips.

Anyway, the ammo shortage is why some people reload, those guys that do and have been though one time of nothing planned ahead and ammo is no issue for them.

 

Actually, I have tested literally just about every brand of ammunition against the Lehigh Defense Xtreme projectiles, loaded by Underwood Ammo, fired into pig carcasses, and dissected the wound channels, including shooting through barriers as resistant as Level III ballistic protection. I have done this in every caliber between .380 ACP and .460 Rowland. I'm pretty sure that I've done more real-world testing and data collection about this than just about anyone you can think of, and I'm not talking ballistic gel, or approximations of tissue, either.

 

The Xtreme Defender and Penetrator projectiles not only penetrate at least Level II and some up to Level III depending on velocity (often dependent on caliber, due to loading power), they are completely barrier blind and produce terminal ballistic effects and tissue damage that equals—and in many cases EXCEEDS—EVERY industry leading JHP round. Also, I have a connection with a military contractor that uses those, based on my testing and recommendations, and they have use them in quite a few actual shooting incidents, with stops in every incident. Every one.

 

Granted, it needs to function in your particular firearm, but all of the reliability testing I have done shows that in almost all pistols, they cycle at least as reliably as FMJ flat-nose in most firearms, and in the majority as reliably as FMJ round-nose/ball.

 

So, no, DON'T use real HD/PD ammunition, if you want something that will penetrate barriers better than ANY of those rounds, and still do as much damage or more than the best of them.

Edited by ChicagoRonin70, 25 March 2020 - 06:57 PM.

[davel501]

Use real HD/PD ammo, not screwdriver tips.
Anyway, the ammo shortage is why some people reload, those guys that do and have been though one time of nothing planned ahead and ammo is no issue for them.

 
Actually, I have tested literally just about every brand of ammunition against the Lehigh Defense Xtreme projectiles, loaded by Underwood Ammo, fired into pig carcasses, and dissected the wound channels, including shooting through barriers as resistant as Level III ballistic protection. I have done this in every caliber between .380 ACP and .460 Rowland. I'm pretty sure that I've done more real-world testing and data collection about this than just about anyone you can think of, and I'm not talking ballistic gel, or approximations of tissue, either.
 
The Xtreme Defender and Penetrator projectiles not only penetrate at least Level II and some up to Level III depending on velocity (often dependent on caliber, due to loading power), they are completely barrier blind and produce terminal ballistic effects and tissue damage that equals—and in many cases EXCEEDS—EVERY industry leading JHP round. Also, I have a connection with a military contractor that uses those, based on my testing and recommendations, and they have use them in quite a few actual shooting incidents, with stops in every incident. Every one.
 
Granted, it needs to function in your particular firearm, but all of the reliability testing I have done shows that in almost all pistols, they cycle at least as reliably as FMJ flat-nose in most firearms, and in the majority as reliably as FMJ round-nose/ball.
 
So, no, DON'T use real HD/PD ammunition, if you want something that will penetrate barriers better than ANY of those rounds, and still do as much damage or more than the best of them.

That test was invalid as soon as the pig was dead. The muscles are going to act differently and the blood isn't there. Even ballistic gel is calibrated for an exact temperature. Get too warm or too cold and your test is invalid. Ballistics testing is a very specific science.

I don't want to shoot through barriers. I want to see what I am shooting at and I want the bullet to stop inside of whatever it is.

People new to guns are going to read this and learn the wrong lessons from it. I wish the mods would shut it down.

[ChicagoRonin70]

 

 

Use real HD/PD ammo, not screwdriver tips.
Anyway, the ammo shortage is why some people reload, those guys that do and have been though one time of nothing planned ahead and ammo is no issue for them.

 
Actually, I have tested literally just about every brand of ammunition against the Lehigh Defense Xtreme projectiles, loaded by Underwood Ammo, fired into pig carcasses, and dissected the wound channels, including shooting through barriers as resistant as Level III ballistic protection. I have done this in every caliber between .380 ACP and .460 Rowland. I'm pretty sure that I've done more real-world testing and data collection about this than just about anyone you can think of, and I'm not talking ballistic gel, or approximations of tissue, either.
 
The Xtreme Defender and Penetrator projectiles not only penetrate at least Level II and some up to Level III depending on velocity (often dependent on caliber, due to loading power), they are completely barrier blind and produce terminal ballistic effects and tissue damage that equals—and in many cases EXCEEDS—EVERY industry leading JHP round. Also, I have a connection with a military contractor that uses those, based on my testing and recommendations, and they have use them in quite a few actual shooting incidents, with stops in every incident. Every one.
 
Granted, it needs to function in your particular firearm, but all of the reliability testing I have done shows that in almost all pistols, they cycle at least as reliably as FMJ flat-nose in most firearms, and in the majority as reliably as FMJ round-nose/ball.
 
So, no, DON'T use real HD/PD ammunition, if you want something that will penetrate barriers better than ANY of those rounds, and still do as much damage or more than the best of them.

That test was invalid as soon as the pig was dead. The muscles are going to act differently and the blood isn't there. Even ballistic gel is calibrated for an exact temperature. Get too warm or too cold and your test is invalid. Ballistics testing is a very specific science.

I don't want to shoot through barriers. I want to see what I am shooting at and I want the bullet to stop inside of whatever it is.

People new to guns are going to read this and learn the wrong lessons from it. I wish the mods would shut it down.

 

 

Actually, no, it isn't invalid. It's literally as close to the results of live targets as possible to get. As well, the results that I have obtained track almost EXACTLY with what recordings of dissected animals hunted with these projectiles, examples of which can be found on YouTube and Full30, among other places online—with one major exception.

 

You know what that is?

 

The rounds do MORE DAMAGE IN LIVE TARGETS THAN IN DEAD ONES.

 

That's right. The damage in targets with active fluid circulation causes more hydraulic shock and tissue disruption, due to tissue saturation with fluids and less cellular rigidity due to the onset of pre-decompositon and gelling of fluids due to refrigeration. Additionally, remote-wounding phenomenon, as well as fractures of structural tissue (bone and cartilage) are increased due to the greater distortion of the temporary wound cavity in the more malleable living tissue. The effects in living target animals with fluid-transfer hydraulic displacement action projectiles are more "rifle-like" than with jacketed hollowpoints, which only do damage by puncturing and cutting/tearing of flesh from mechanical means, rather than also by significant hydraulic pressure damage.

 

Additionally, the rotational energy of the round with the fluted projectiles is transferred into the target, resulting in a greater and more complete transfer of the round's total energy into the target. This means, the faster the round goes, combined with the larger the surface area of the flutes, causes greater tissue and fluid disruption, as well as more secondary wounding damage due to high-velocity fling-off and hard-tissue fragments. What this means is that projectiles such as the Xtreme Defender, which has larger surface area on the flutes, actually slow down FASTER in soft, fluid-dense tissue, and every video that you can find online shows that they penetrate consistently around 17-22 inches in ballistic gel.

 

In actual tissue, in DOZENS of hog carcasses, with HUNDREDS of these rounds in every caliber I have only had two pass-throughs of these rounds, and those are because I shot through the neck of one carcass and beneath the spine on the abdomen (behind the ribs) on another, with a 90-grain 9x25 Dillon Xtreme Defender round traveling at 2,050 fps and a 200-grain Xtreme Penetrator .460 Rowland round traveling over 1,400 fps, respectively.

 

Furthermore, the Military Arms Channel has a video of shooting a hog carcass with multiple shots of 9mm +p+ Xtreme PENETRATOR rounds, going over 1,350 fps, and none of them pass through a 12" wide pig carcass.

 

You can watch that here.

 

https://youtu.be/ClJcJ8LQFbQ?t=514

 

Additionally, because the Xtreme Series projectiles don't rely on expansion as a mechanism to transfer energy, they don't fail to open up the way even the best hollow points do when passing through barriers. In my testing, every hollow point will perform much less well than normal, and ALWAYS less well than the Xtreme series rounds, when fired through barriers, heavy clothing, and especially ballistic protection.

 

Unless you do as much testing as I have, and we're talking dozens upon dozens of hours here, including cutting open wound channels with a scalpel, bit by bit, and tracing the path of not only the projectiles but also the secondary wound paths, and the entire carcass as well, to see the terminal ballistic damage in not only the local area of effect, but also the entire target animal, you will NEVER have the same standing in correctness on this subject as I do.

 

Let me put this plainly. You don't know what you are talking about, and I do, and here's what I know, which has been confirmed by actual testing and not bullsh!t supposed traditional knowledge on the subject..

 

A. These rounds penetrate more consistently than standard and even top-performing JHPs

B. These rounds do as much or often more tissue damage than the industry standard "best" JHPs

C. These rounds do not overpenetrate targets as much as the best JHPs, especially through barriers.

D. In both living animal AND human targets, these rounds will produce more consistent stops than the best JHPs.

 

Do yourself a favor and do a search on my handle on here, along with Lehigh Defense or Underwood, and you will see discussions I've been posting for years on here about this subject.

 

So, now, you've been informed by someone who knows INFINITELY better than you, due to extensive real life testing and research, that you are simply WRONG in your opinion about this. Period.

Edited by ChicagoRonin70, 25 March 2020 - 10:25 PM.

[InterestedBystander]

Report yesterday indicated Megasports had plenty of ammo and no limits

http://www.gunssavel...-assault-calls/

...Our guy hit the jackpot at MegaSports in Plainfield though. He reports they have lots of ammo. Lots. Unsure if the MegaSupply ship sailed into port or what, but they now have both practice ammo and self-defense loads. And they dropped their earlier purchase limits! Repeating, NO LIMITS on purchase amounts.

No, they didnt pay for this announcement.

No word on if prices have been hiked, but when your store is the only game in town and everyone wants some food for their GLOCKS and SIGS (to say nothing of Rugers and S&Ws), even slightly pricey ammo looks appealing....

Edited by InterestedBystander, 27 March 2020 - 08:14 PM.

[Bubbacs]

Report yesterday indicated Megasports had plenty of ammo and no limitshttp://www.gunssavel...-assault-calls/
...Our guy hit the jackpot at MegaSports in Plainfield though. He reports they have lots of ammo. Lots. Unsure if the MegaSupply ship sailed into port or what, but they now have both practice ammo and self-defense loads. And they dropped their earlier purchase limits! Repeating, NO LIMITS on purchase amounts.
No, they didnt pay for this announcement.
No word on if prices have been hiked, but when your store is the only game in town and everyone wants some food for their GLOCKS and SIGS (to say nothing of Rugers and S&Ws), even slightly pricey ammo looks appealing....

A smile came across my old wrinkly face! Thanks IB.
On a serious note I paid the same as almost two years ago for my defense rounds (HST) last week when I picked up that Glock 43X.
And yes the 43X was normal price based on what I researched prior to making the purchase.

[ChicagoRonin70]

I can verify, Underwood Ammo is shipping and seems to be pretty well stocked.

 

They're based in Sparta, Illinois, and they send right to your door by U.S. Mail or UPS, in very well-packed shipping boxes.

 

Their products are top-notch, as well, in any caliber or projectile that they load.

[BigBL87]

So, I've been keeping an eye on ammo stock and prices online. Just based on non-scientific observation, it seems like prices are a bit higher but ammo stock is not as bad as it was when all this kicked off. Thinking/hoping people realized this isn't the end of the world and aren't continuing to panic buy quite as much.

[ddan]

Use real HD/PD ammo, not screwdriver tips.
Anyway, the ammo shortage is why some people reload, those guys that do and have been though one time of nothing planned ahead and ammo is no issue for them.

That is a really good point. The economics of reloading 9mm ball or .223 ball fail if you put any value on your time. I get it that sometimes rote repetitive work is soothing, but when 9mm is $10 or $12 a box.... meh

But to be able to crank out a couple thousand JHP? nice!

[Rilo]

Sportsman’s guide has 9mm back in!

 

https://www.sportsma...ounds?a=1590290

[GT1]

The not driving anywhere(gas could be a dollar a gallon right now, doesn't matter to the average American) and social distancing has kind of slowed down most people from doing much.  It isn't safe to get groceries, and mingling with others at a range is less of a desire right now.
Some areas around the country have trouble getting some things or keeping some things in stock from the anecdotal evidence I pick up on the social network firearm/reloading groups I tend to follow every day.

[SiliconSorcerer]

I've been very happy with the Ruger ARX ammo, it out performed every defensive ammo I had bought all I could get my hands on years ago. 

[ChicagoRonin70]

I've been very happy with the Ruger ARX ammo, it out performed every defensive ammo I had bought all I could get my hands on years ago. 

 

If you like the ARX ammo, try Underwood's Lehigh loadings, especially the fastest versions of Xtreme Defender that they have in whatever caliber. The ARX does well in soft tissue according to my testing, but can have deformation issues against heavy bone and against barriers more than moderately thick (especially any ballistic protection) and auto glass.

 

The one thing that the ARX does better than the Xtreme projectiles is that it is lower recoil due to the lighter bullet weight. 

[Raw Power]

Underwood Ammo always seems to have what I use in stock, except for today when I tried get some .38 Special +P 100 grain Xtreme Defender. Strangely, they were out of that. That's not likely a super-popular ammo, so maybe when I ordered it last from them I cleared out their stock.

Just placed an order with them and it came SUPER fast.

[ChicagoRonin70]

 

Underwood Ammo always seems to have what I use in stock, except for today when I tried get some .38 Special +P 100 grain Xtreme Defender. Strangely, they were out of that. That's not likely a super-popular ammo, so maybe when I ordered it last from them I cleared out their stock.

Just placed an order with them and it came SUPER fast.

 

 

Yeah, they filled my other orders of 10mm and .460 Rowland in a few days. They usually have a very good stock and response time for most things. And apparently, my last order of the .38 Special +P 100 grain XDs was the last of their stock on that. I guess I found out who the ammo hoarder was. Hah!

[McCroskey]

I'm back to this topic a bit late but I finally got my updated FOID so I ordered my .357 and .45 from Underwood. A lot of the other places I usually check first like Targetsports were out of almost everything I wanted.