Can Law Enforcement demand to see an FFL's 4473's?

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I know the ATF can literally walk in the door at an FFL and request/demand to see any or all 4473's but what about LE? I am finding contradicting information on this subject. One source says they can literally just ask for them, another source says they have to get a warrant, another source source says only the ATF can access 4473 at the FFL. 

 

Does anyone know for certain? Thanks in advance!

 

VooDoo

[John Q Public]

I know the Il gun law reads person to person sales... you are required to produce records of the sale, "Upon request of Law Enforcement."

 

Person to person is kind of moot, now as the ISP collects all the data of both parties when you do the background check. We have a defacto registry for PTP.

 

Also, I think they now allow review of FFL record to all LEA too, but I can't remember where, I read it, nor say I'm certain. 

[Euler]

Effective August 2021, gun dealers have been licensed by the state.

430 ILCS 68/5-35 said:

Licensees shall have their places of business open for inspection by the Illinois State Police and law enforcement during all hours of operation involving the selling, leasing, or otherwise transferring of firearms, provided that the Illinois State Police or law enforcement may conduct no more than one unannounced inspection per business per year without good cause. During an inspection, licensees shall make all records, documents, and firearms accessible for inspection upon the request of the Illinois State Police or law enforcement agency.

[John Q Public]

Yup, that's it.

[ealcala31]

The law referenced above, 430 ILCS 68/5-35, is correct. An FFL's documents are "subject to review" by ATF, ISP, or any other LEA by the Biden Administration's DOJ. In the beginning, there was a p!$$!ng match between the ATF & ISP. The Biden Administration cleared that up with the "subject to review" regulation. On my 2nd inspection by the ISP Inspectors, they asked for all my documents; 4473s, boundbooks, inventory, 5/24-4 forms, and pretty much everything. I hesitated because of the prior year, but my ATF Investigator gave me the, "subject to review" line and the hesitation was over. I tossed everything on the table and asked how many years he wanted to review. The ISP was interested in the 5/24-4 forms so I bet that every IL Dealer who was NOT doing them, will. Typically, gun traces were ALL done by ATF, now individual departments will call and ask for a gun trace. CPD calls me directly for gun traces now. Firearm rights in IL are gone! Some of the guys in the IL Guns SubReddit say that IL FFL Dealers should resist any document requirement by ATF or ISP. Refuse ATF, LOSE LICENSE. Refuse ISP, LOSE STATE LICENSE, FTIP ACCESS, & POSSIBLE FFL. Refuse any LEA, LOSE LICENSE. Why? Because WE voted in anti-gun politicians in the last state & federal elections...

[davel501]

On 11/24/2023 at 6:49 PM, ealcala31 said:

The law referenced above, 430 ILCS 68/5-35, is correct. An FFL's documents are "subject to review" by ATF, ISP, or any other LEA by the Biden Administration's DOJ. In the beginning, there was a p!$$!ng match between the ATF & ISP. The Biden Administration cleared that up with the "subject to review" regulation. On my 2nd inspection by the ISP Inspectors, they asked for all my documents; 4473s, boundbooks, inventory, 5/24-4 forms, and pretty much everything. I hesitated because of the prior year, but my ATF Investigator gave me the, "subject to review" line and the hesitation was over. I tossed everything on the table and asked how many years he wanted to review. The ISP was interested in the 5/24-4 forms so I bet that every IL Dealer who was NOT doing them, will. Typically, gun traces were ALL done by ATF, now individual departments will call and ask for a gun trace. CPD calls me directly for gun traces now. Firearm rights in IL are gone! Some of the guys in the IL Guns SubReddit say that IL FFL Dealers should resist any document requirement by ATF or ISP. Refuse ATF, LOSE LICENSE. Refuse ISP, LOSE STATE LICENSE, FTIP ACCESS, & POSSIBLE FFL. Refuse any LEA, LOSE LICENSE. Why? Because WE voted in anti-gun politicians in the last state & federal elections...

 

How long do you get to do the trace for the police? 

[cnwfan3]

On 11/24/2023 at 6:49 PM, ealcala31 said:

The law referenced above, 430 ILCS 68/5-35, is correct. An FFL's documents are "subject to review" by ATF, ISP, or any other LEA by the Biden Administration's DOJ. In the beginning, there was a p!$$!ng match between the ATF & ISP. The Biden Administration cleared that up with the "subject to review" regulation. On my 2nd inspection by the ISP Inspectors, they asked for all my documents; 4473s, boundbooks, inventory, 5/24-4 forms, and pretty much everything. I hesitated because of the prior year, but my ATF Investigator gave me the, "subject to review" line and the hesitation was over. I tossed everything on the table and asked how many years he wanted to review. The ISP was interested in the 5/24-4 forms so I bet that every IL Dealer who was NOT doing them, will. Typically, gun traces were ALL done by ATF, now individual departments will call and ask for a gun trace. CPD calls me directly for gun traces now. Firearm rights in IL are gone! Some of the guys in the IL Guns SubReddit say that IL FFL Dealers should resist any document requirement by ATF or ISP. Refuse ATF, LOSE LICENSE. Refuse ISP, LOSE STATE LICENSE, FTIP ACCESS, & POSSIBLE FFL. Refuse any LEA, LOSE LICENSE. Why? Because WE voted in anti-gun politicians in the last state & federal elections...

 

Is the state copying all the 4473's to make a registry?  I'm curious if that was their intention passing the dealer licensing act.

[lilguy]

Visiting LGSs and Cabelas is an education. I don’t think they fully understand what’s coming down the line. 

[ealcala31]

On 11/24/2023 at 7:01 PM, davel501 said:

 

How long do you get to do the trace for the police? 

24hrs, unless it falls on a Friday. Then it must be emailed by Monday.

[SiliconSorcerer]

On 11/25/2023 at 8:26 AM, ealcala31 said:

24hrs, unless it falls on a Friday. Then it must be emailed by Monday.

Why would CPD call a FFL to do a firearm trace, do it your ... self it's not your job or are you required to for them, right? 

Also why would a FFL do a 5/24 form for? 

When you buy or take in firearms a FFL must check if it's stolen? 

I'm not saying that might not be good business practice but must. 

 

[ealcala31]

On 11/24/2023 at 7:48 PM, cnwfan3 said:

 

Is the state copying all the 4473's to make a registry?  I'm curious if that was their intention passing the dealer licensing act.

No, ISP Investigators are not even familiar with a thorough 4473 audit. They just wanted the ability to look at them, access. In the beginning, I put the 5/24-4 forms in the 4473. Then, I chatted with another former IL FFL Dealer in Oak Lawn, and he said ATF ripped out all his 5/24-4 forms from the 4473. So, I separated them from the 4473, ISP did not like that. Talked again to my ATF Investigator and he said if the state required them to be in the 4473, its fine. The Biden DOJ gave all the firearm regulation power back to the states. The DOJ is also going for broke, for anyone who has been keeping up with the Cargill case, ATF audited him without proper notification. If a FFL Dealer is suing the ATF, an unwarranted audit is no longer legal, ATF must notify the plaintiff that they are coming. ATF did no such thing, they came in, admitted they were supposed to notify him in advance, and still did the audit anyway. It angers me when we get pro-2A politicians in office and we just keep up the status quo, but when anti-gunners get in office, its pure gun bans. We need to support candidates that support 2A expansion, or walk into these political meetings like the 2A enthusiasts did to the NRA in the '70's...

[davel501]

On 11/25/2023 at 8:26 AM, ealcala31 said:

24hrs, unless it falls on a Friday. Then it must be emailed by Monday.

 

What happens if you are on vacation for a week? 

[ealcala31]

On 11/25/2023 at 8:45 AM, SiliconSorcerer said:

Why would CPD call a FFL to do a firearm trace, do it your ... self it's not your job or are you required to for them, right? 

Also why would a FFL do a 5/24 form for? 

When you buy or take in firearms a FFL must check if it's stolen? 

I'm not saying that might not be good business practice but must. 

 

1. All my documents are "subject to review" according to the DOJ/ATF.

2. The 5/24-4 form is the state form. This has been talked about b4. A form a dealer gives you or questions he'll ask you like; occupation and purpose for this purchase. 

3. FFL Dealers have no access to the ATFs stolen firearm database. IL is doing their own as well as other states. FFL Dealers from PA said they have a pretty good state database for stolen firearms.

[ealcala31]

On 11/25/2023 at 8:51 AM, davel501 said:

 

What happens if you are on vacation for a week? 

This has happened, but has not been an issue. If it's a REAL mass shooting, you better head home ASAP, or you'll probably get hung to dry...

[Vodoun da Vinci]

On 11/24/2023 at 7:48 PM, cnwfan3 said:

 

Is the state copying all the 4473's to make a registry?  I'm curious if that was their intention passing the dealer licensing act.

 

 That would be illegal...

 

https://freerangeamerican.us/atf-form-4473-database/

 

Quote

 

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives (ATF) recently revealed it has collected and maintained 920,664,765 firearm sales records to date that include American gun buyers’ personal information. Nearly 95% percent of them are retained in a digitized format, and the agency obtained 54.7 million of these records in fiscal 2021 alone. 

This revelation, combined with a proposed ATF rule change that would require Federal Firearms License (FFL) holders to preserve Form 4473 records from gun sales indefinitely, has many concerned that the agency is working toward creating a national gun registry. 

 

 

VooDoo

[cnwfan3]

On 11/25/2023 at 9:59 AM, Vodoun da Vinci said:

 

 That would be illegal...

 

https://freerangeamerican.us/atf-form-4473-database/

 

 

VooDoo

 

I know it's illegal, but when has that stopped the state from doing anything.  I was just wonding if that state was actually doing that.  But from the replies, it appears they are not.  I was just wondeing if they would do that to get a list of people who own "assault weapons".  Unless they do, they have no way of knowing who owns what.

[davel501]

On 11/25/2023 at 2:54 PM, cnwfan3 said:

 

I know it's illegal, but when has that stopped the state from doing anything.  I was just wonding if that state was actually doing that.  But from the replies, it appears they are not.  I was just wondeing if they would do that to get a list of people who own "assault weapons".  Unless they do, they have no way of knowing who owns what.

 

If you follow the testimony it's just an electronic version of the manual process. From what was said, they scan a group of 4473s into a pdf. They did not say if it was everything from an FFL in one, per ffl/year or something else but they create the analog of a box of 4473s with a pdf. They then have to scroll through it to find the 4473 they need because they paid Adobe extra to remove the search function from acrobat. Nobody thought to ask if they paid extra to have that blocked in every other piece of software that might be on that machine like Chrome/Edge. 

 

This also gets all 4473s in an electronic format so they could be quickly read in if law was changed or a FISA court asked for the files. Secret courts so secret things so they may already have. With current technology you could probably set to the ingestion of the forms into a database in an afternoon if there aren't a ton of variations in fields you care about over the years. From there it's just up to how much time vs money to spend reading them all in. 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

On 11/25/2023 at 2:54 PM, cnwfan3 said:

 

I know it's illegal, but when has that stopped the state from doing anything.  I was just wonding if that state was actually doing that.  But from the replies, it appears they are not.  I was just wondeing if they would do that to get a list of people who own "assault weapons".  Unless they do, they have no way of knowing who owns what.

 I'm sorry - I thought the sarcasm was apparent. From the first paragraph of the article I linked: 

 

Quote

 

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives (ATF) recently revealed it has collected and maintained 920,664,765 firearm sales records to date that include American gun buyers’ personal information. Nearly 95% percent of them are retained in a digitized format, and the agency obtained 54.7 million of these records in fiscal 2021 alone. 

This revelation, combined with a proposed ATF rule change that would require Federal Firearms License (FFL) holders to preserve Form 4473 records from gun sales indefinitely, has many concerned that the agency is working toward creating a national gun registry. 

 

 

VooDoo

 

 

 

[cnwfan3]

On 11/25/2023 at 4:24 PM, Vodoun da Vinci said:

 I'm sorry - I thought the sarcasm was apparent. From the first paragraph of the article I linked: 

 

 

VooDoo

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I didn't realize you were being sarcastic.  Normally that would be in purple.  I know what the ATF has been doing is illegal.  I was just asking about IL and if they were illegally copying 4473s too.  Unless they are, they really have no way of knowing who has what and can't really enforse PICA.

[JTHunter]

Since when did either the ATF or this state care about "legalities"?