(Chicago) BACP Newsletter explains no guns in ANY bar

[Beezil]

I am a Chicago-based business owner, and just received an e-mail blast from the Chicago Business Affairs and Consumer Protection department.

 

One of the highlighted items is the explanation to ANY business owner who holds a Chicago liquor license that they are prohibited from allowing anyone from carrying a concealed weapon

 

here's how it reads:

 

"Please also be advised that pursuant to 4-60-140(k) of the Chicago Municipal Code, all consumption on premises liquor licensee's, including any officer, associate, member, representative, agent or employee, are prohibited from allowing any person to carry a concealed firearm on the licensed premises."

I know this is not new news item, but now that this is an established directive going to business owners, I'd like to know how this can stand considering the clear language in public act 98-0063 which clearly states:

 

"The regulation, licensing, possession, registration and transportation of handguns and ammunition for handguns be licensees are EXCLUSIVE POWERS AND FUNCTIONS OF THE STATE. Any ordinance or regulation, or portion thereof, enacted on or before the effective date of this act that purports to impose regulation or restrictions on licensees o handguns and ammunition for handguns in a manner inconsistent with this with this act SHALL BE INVALID IN ITS APPLICATION........"

 

The 4-60-14k ordinance is in clear violation and is meant to strong arm ALL businesses with a liquor license to declare its building and real property a "gun free zone" and I seems to me, whether or not a sign is erected.

 

Are there any efforts being made to challenge this I may have missed?

[BrowningHP]

 

(k) No licensee or any officer, associate, member, representative, agent or employee of such licensee shall permit any person to carry a concealed firearm on the licensed premises.

 

(1) The owner of the premises or place of business operating under a city retailer's license for the sale of alcoholic liquor shall post a sign indicating that firearms are prohibited on the property. Signs stating that the carrying of firearms is prohibited shall be clearly and conspicuously posted at the entrance of a building, premises, or real property in accordance with Illinois Public Act 098-0063, entitled the “Firearm Concealed Carry Act”. Signs shall be of a uniform design as established by the Illinois Department of State Police and shall be 4 inches by 6 inches in size.

 

(2) The prohibition against the carrying of a concealed firearm on the licensed premised shall not apply to:

 

(a) persons holding a package goods license; or

 

( premises on which the carrying of concealed firearms is permitted by:

 

(i) individuals authorized to carry a firearm under Section 24-2 of the Illinois Criminal Code of 2012;

 

(ii) retired law enforcement officers qualified under federal law to carry a concealed firearm; or

 

(iii) the owner, lessee, tenant or operator of the licensed premises or the agents thereof.

[mata777]

Once again Chicago politicians think the can make up their own ccw laws. I smell a lawsuit brewing. Good luck with your business.

[transplant]

Wouldn't (ii) also be an equal protection violation because it creates different classes of citizens?

[Tango7]

Pretty sneaky job of the City.

 

Here's the text of the section:

 

(k) No licensee or any officer, associate, member, representative, agent or employee of such licensee shall permit any person to carry a concealed firearm on the licensed premises.

 

(1) The owner of the premises or place of business operating under a city retailer's license for the sale of alcoholic liquor shall post a sign indicating that firearms are prohibited on the property. Signs stating that the carrying of firearms is prohibited shall be clearly and conspicuously posted at the entrance of a building, premises, or real property in accordance with Illinois Public Act 098-0063, entitled the “Firearm Concealed Carry Act”. Signs shall be of a uniform design as established by the Illinois Department of State Police and shall be 4 inches by 6 inches in size.

 

(2) The prohibition against the carrying of a concealed firearm on the licensed premised shall not apply to:

 

(a) persons holding a package goods license; or

 

(B.) premises on which the carrying of concealed firearms is permitted by:

 

(i) individuals authorized to carry a firearm under Section 24-2 of the Illinois Criminal Code of 2012;

 

(ii) retired law enforcement officers qualified under federal law to carry a concealed firearm; or

 

(iii) the owner, lessee, tenant or operator of the licensed premises or the agents thereof.

 

Section 24 is of course the Deadly Weapons statute, "-2" is the "Exemptions" section, which contains language about police officers, prosecutors, security guards, but also contains the exemptions to UUW by FCCL holders.

 

Wonder if they are simply prohibiting unlicensed CCW?

 

Looking up the "Amend Coun. J. 9-11-13, p. 58817, § 3" now

[Tango7]

58820 JOURNAL--CITY COUNCIL--CHICAGO 9/11/2013

 

SECTION 3. Section 4-60-140 of the Municipal Code of Chicago is hereby amended by

inserting the language underscored and deleting the language stricken through, as follows:

4-60-140 Prohibited Activities.

 

(Omitted text is unaffected by this ordinance.)

 

J) It shall be unlawful for any licensee or any officer, associate, member, representative,

agent or employee of a licensee to sell, give, offer or expose for sale, or deliver any

novelty-type alcoholic liquor container that, by virtue of the material from which it is

composed or by its shape or design, or that by its ordinary and customary use is likely to

mislead the consumer as to the alcoholic character of the product, except for consumption

on the licensed premises. A "novelty-type" container is an alcoholic liquor container which

uses the same shape or design as another non-alcoholic food product, but does not include

cans or bottles or other containers as allowed by this section. The local liquor control

commissioner shall have the authority to publish regulations for implementation of this

subsection, including identifying specific products and categories of products falling within

the prohibition.

 

K) No licensee or any officer. associate. member, representative, agent or employee of

such licensee shall permit any person to carry a concealed firearm on the licensed

premises.

 

1) The owner of the premises or place of business operating under a city retailer's

license for the sale of alcoholic liquor shall post a sign indicating that firearms are

prohibited on the property. Signs stating that the carrying of firearms is prohibited shall

be clearly and conspicuously posted at the entrance of a building. premises. or real

property in accordance with Illinois Public Act 098-0063. entitled the "Firearm Concealed

Carry Act". Signs shall be of a uniform design as established by the Illinois Department

of State Police and shall be 4 inches by 6 inches in size.

 

2)The prohibition against the carrying of a concealed firearm on the licensed

premised shall not apply to:

A) persons holding a package goods license; or

premises on which the carrying of concealed firearms is permitted by:

(i) individuals authorized to carry a firearm under Section 24-2 of the Illinois Criminal Code of 2012;

(ii) retired law enforcement officers qualified under federal law to carry a concealed

firearm; or

(iii) the owner, lessee, tenant or operator of the licensed premises or the agents

thereof.

 

That 2nd to last section seems to allow <50% places.

[CHICAGO HANDGUN OWNER]

It seems to me that this applies to non CCW holders. As long as the premises don't sell more than 51 percent sales of alcohol if you have a CCW permit you can carry on the property assuming there is no sign.

[Molly B.]

 

 

Are there any efforts being made to challenge this I may have missed?

 

There are efforts challenging this.

[Stevepk]

^^^^^

Nuf said

[Molly B.]

Are there any efforts being made to challenge this I may have missed?

 

There are efforts challenging this.

 

Clarification - there are efforts to challenge the city denying or revoking a liquor license to places that allow concealed carry.

[TyGuy]

Chciago just loves throwing money out the legal system window don't they?

[Molly B.]

This looks like the city is trying hoodwink and confuse business owners into posting "no guns". THey can't post "no guns" and then exempt CCL license holders unless the sign says "does not pertain to CCL license holders" - I'll be glad when all the hoopla dies down and we can just get on with exercising our Constitutional rights.

[lockman]

An owner that does not post is not authorizing anyone to carry!

 

The city code states:

shall permit any person to carry a concealed firearm on the licensed premises.

 

The state is permitting, the owner is not posting.

[Beezil]

agreed. and to lockman's point, in reading the language, it doesn't say "owner of licensed premises 'must dis-allow' persons from carrying firearms", only that they can not "allow"

 

that wording is sneaky to be sure, and I am glad the City of Chicago is continually being challenged

[rbarry]

This is the full text. Reads to me that no carry for anyone including owner, employees and agents etc pursuant to the municipal code. They don't actually say they need to post the sign unless it is required per the state FCCA. http://ih.constantcontact.com/fs120/1102674316207/img/162.jpg

Requirements for Conceal and Carry Signage

 

<a class="yiv7450061375imgCaptionAnchor" href="http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001BCLkdgt37N6bEpuHCxgivlRUP4dyXxv4hvcJ79XWimNn22OXyDocaRR6GkXO8MoseKcQ7zQU7aumzhbvJ62LjjLrz4NF8ZROIAiPJthQLsFmpkePV4Ipb61PfOttNbeZzFxvi_FX1DU5z5zjx9EczTw2VKQ3iZ62" id="yui_3_7_2_1_1389815946779_2130" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank">http://ih.constantcontact.com/fs120/1102674316207/img/408.jpg Click on the image to download the sign from the State Police.

Owners of any statutorily prohibited area or private property, excluding residences, where the owner prohibits the carrying of firearms must clearly and conspicuously post the Illinois State Police approved sign, in accordance with Firearm Concealed Carry Act, at the entrance of the building, premises or real property. Please refer to Section 65 (Prohibited Areas) of the Firearm Concealed Carry Act for more information on statutory requirements for signage as well as where concealed weapons are prohibited.

Pursuant to Section 65(d) of the Firearm Concealed Carry Act, signs must be of a uniform design and the Illinois State Police is responsible for adopting rules for standardized signs. The Illinois State Police has proposed rules which require a white background; no text (except the reference to the Illinois Code 430 ILCS 66/1) or marking within the one-inch area surrounding the graphic design; a depiction of a handgun in black ink with a circle around and diagonal slash across the firearm in red ink; and that the circle be four inches in diameter. The sign in its entirety will measure four inches by six inches.

Please also be advised that pursuant to 4-60-140(k) of the Chicago Municipal Code, all consumption on premises liquor licensee's, including any officer, associate, member, representative, agent or employee, are prohibited from allowing any person to carry a concealed firearm on the licensed premises.

[Tvandermyde]

We are working on it but it helps to have a business owner that wants to be a plaintiff

[Pete S]

Same challenge for Vernon Hills and other Oak Park type towns that will try this? Or is it just Chicago right now?

[bobapunk]

Pretty sneaky job of the City.

 

Here's the text of the section:

 

(k) No licensee or any officer, associate, member, representative, agent or employee of such licensee shall permit any person to carry a concealed firearm on the licensed premises.

 

(1) The owner of the premises or place of business operating under a city retailer's license for the sale of alcoholic liquor shall post a sign indicating that firearms are prohibited on the property. Signs stating that the carrying of firearms is prohibited shall be clearly and conspicuously posted at the entrance of a building, premises, or real property in accordance with Illinois Public Act 098-0063, entitled the “Firearm Concealed Carry Act”. Signs shall be of a uniform design as established by the Illinois Department of State Police and shall be 4 inches by 6 inches in size.

 

(2) The prohibition against the carrying of a concealed firearm on the licensed premised shall not apply to:

 

(a) persons holding a package goods license; or

 

(B.) premises on which the carrying of concealed firearms is permitted by:

 

(i) individuals authorized to carry a firearm under Section 24-2 of the Illinois Criminal Code of 2012;

 

(ii) retired law enforcement officers qualified under federal law to carry a concealed firearm; or

 

(iii) the owner, lessee, tenant or operator of the licensed premises or the agents thereof.

 

Section 24 is of course the Deadly Weapons statute, "-2" is the "Exemptions" section, which contains language about police officers, prosecutors, security guards, but also contains the exemptions to UUW by FCCL holders.

 

Wonder if they are simply prohibiting unlicensed CCW?

 

Looking up the "Amend Coun. J. 9-11-13, p. 58817, § 3" now

 

Can you point out the specific paragraph that exempts FCCA licensees? I would like to read what paragraphs we will be exempt from.

[rbarry]

It's going to be hard to find a plaintiff with a restaurant that will risk loosing their liquor license. Not to mention a flood of city building and health inspectors.

[Tango7]

 

Can you point out the specific paragraph that exempts FCCA licensees? I would like to read what paragraphs we will be exempt from.

 

Thought FCCL holders would qualify under 24-2, but upon further consideration the posting of the premises does away with that, regardless whether or not they recognize the FCCL.

 

ETA -

Sec. 24-2. Exemptions.

(a) Subsections 24-1(a)(3), 24-1(a)(4), 24-1(a)(10), and 24-1(a)(13) and Section 24-1.6 do not apply to or affect any of the following:

 

(a-5) Subsections 24-1(a)(4) and 24-1(a)(10) do not apply to or affect any person carrying a concealed pistol, revolver, or handgun and the person has been issued a currently valid license under the Firearm Concealed Carry Act at the time of the commission of the offense.

 

24-1(a)(4)

 

(4) Carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person except when on his land or in his own abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission, any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser or other firearm, except that this subsection (a) (4) does not apply to or affect transportation of weapons that meet one of the following conditions:

(i) are broken down in a non-functioning state; or

(ii) are not immediately accessible; or

(iii) are unloaded and enclosed in a case,

firearm carrying box, shipping box, or other container by a person who has been issued a currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card;

 

24-1(a)(10)

 

(10) Carries or possesses on or about his person, upon any public street, alley, or other public lands within the corporate limits of a city, village or incorporated town, except when an invitee thereon or therein, for the purpose of the display of such weapon or the lawful commerce in weapons, or except when on his land or in his own abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission, any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser or other firearm, except that this subsection (a) (10) does not apply to or affect transportation of weapons that meet one of the following conditions:

 

(i) are broken down in a non-functioning state; or

(ii) are not immediately accessible; or

(iii) are unloaded and enclosed in a case,firearm carrying box, shipping box, or other container by a person who has been issued a currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card.

 

A "stun gun or taser", as used in this paragraph (a) means (i) any device which is powered by electrical charging units, such as, batteries, and which fires one or several barbs attached to a length of wire and which, upon hitting a human, can send out a current capable of disrupting the person's nervous system in such a manner as to render him incapable of normal functioning or (ii) any device which is powered by electrical charging units, such as batteries, and which, upon contact with a human or clothing worn by a human, can send out current capable of disrupting the person's nervous system in such a manner as to render him incapable of normal functioning;

[bob]

The FCCA requires bars to actively ban concealed carry. it is a $5000/day fine if they don't.

 

I suspect that implementing what the city is telling them to do would be adequate to avoid any fines. At least it would make for a good defense in court.

 

It does not appear to be preempted, so the city is likely within its powers to make this ordinance.

[spec5]

The FCCA requires bars to actively ban concealed carry. it is a $5000 fine if they don't.

 

I suspect that implementing what the city is telling them to do would be adequate to avoid any fines.

 

The ordinance exempts package liquor stores.

What are you seeing that would lead you to say bars?

(1) The owner of the premises or place of business operating under a city retailer's license for the sale of alcoholic liquor shall post a sign indicating that firearms are prohibited on the property. Signs stating that the carrying of firearms is prohibited shall be clearly and conspicuously posted at the entrance of a building, premises, or real property in accordance with Illinois Public Act 098-0063, entitled the “Firearm Concealed Carry Act”. Signs shall be of a uniform design as established by the Illinois Department of State Police and shall be 4 inches by 6 inches in size.

 

One of the highlighted items is the explanation to ANY business owner who holds a Chicago liquor license that they are prohibited from allowing anyone from carrying a concealed weapon

[lockman]

The FCCA requires bars to actively ban concealed carry. it is a $5000 fine if they don't.

 

I suspect that implementing what the city is telling them to do would be adequate to avoid any fines.

 

The ordinance exempts package liquor stores.

What are you seeing that would lead you to say bars?

(1) The owner of the premises or place of business operating under a city retailer's license for the sale of alcoholic liquor shall post a sign indicating that firearms are prohibited on the property. Signs stating that the carrying of firearms is prohibited shall be clearly and conspicuously posted at the entrance of a building, premises, or real property in accordance with Illinois Public Act 098-0063, entitled the "Firearm Concealed Carry Act". Signs shall be of a uniform design as established by the Illinois Department of State Police and shall be 4 inches by 6 inches in size.

 

One of the highlighted items is the explanation to ANY business owner who holds a Chicago liquor license that they are prohibited from allowing anyone from carrying a concealed weapon

 

The city has exempted FCCL holders but turns around and requires the state FCCL signage be posted. This guts the exemption for FCCL holders. Definitely an end run around preemption.

[bob]

I do not think the city has the power to require the sign be posted and then exempt the owner and various others from the prohibition. OTOH, they can tell their own police department not to enforce the prohibition against the enumerated individuals.

 

I was editing while the previous poster was responding.

[bob]

The FCCA requires bars to actively ban concealed carry. it is a $5000 fine if they don't.

 

I suspect that implementing what the city is telling them to do would be adequate to avoid any fines.

 

The ordinance exempts package liquor stores.

What are you seeing that would lead you to say bars?

(1) The owner of the premises or place of business operating under a city retailer's license for the sale of alcoholic liquor shall post a sign indicating that firearms are prohibited on the property. Signs stating that the carrying of firearms is prohibited shall be clearly and conspicuously posted at the entrance of a building, premises, or real property in accordance with Illinois Public Act 098-0063, entitled the "Firearm Concealed Carry Act". Signs shall be of a uniform design as established by the Illinois Department of State Police and shall be 4 inches by 6 inches in size.

 

One of the highlighted items is the explanation to ANY business owner who holds a Chicago liquor license that they are prohibited from allowing anyone from carrying a concealed weapon

 

They can say that. Whether they can make it stick is for a court to decide. read the preemption clauses very carefully before you say it is preempted.

[spec5]

I was thinking you were responding to the OP of which I thought this thread was about. The OP is a business owner who sells liquor and he is NOT a bar but required to post a sign. That is what I thought we were talking about. Not preemption. I agree that it can't be done. I missed when we got sidetracked from the OP. My bad. Continue on. I missed the detour. Too many threads at the end are so far from the OP.

 

This is a part from the OP.

One of the highlighted items is the explanation to ANY business owner who holds a Chicago liquor license that they are prohibited from allowing anyone from carrying a concealed weapon

[carry]

Required to post a sign consistent with FCCA, which only requires a sign if 51% or more sales are from liquor. So if you're below that threshold you don't have to post, although the prior sentence is ambiguous and requires a sign.

 

The other problem is that FCCA only allows the PROPERTY OWNER to post. The BUSINESS OWNER and LIQUOR LICENSEE could be a different entity.