STR8*SHOT Posted September 1, 2013 at 10:08 PM Posted September 1, 2013 at 10:08 PM I would like to see, at this moment in time, in black and white on the ISP website that Basic Pistol and other proposed courses will count for the first eight hours. Folks in our area are scared to do anything until they know to sure. People want to be pro-active at this time but are standing fast! Thnx - JerryStr8Shot
RacerDave6 Posted September 2, 2013 at 01:02 AM Posted September 2, 2013 at 01:02 AM When instructors and curriculum are approved and we begin teaching, will NRA basic pistol taught as the first 8 hours have to be taught by a certified IL ccw instructor?
sirflyguy Posted September 2, 2013 at 01:07 AM Posted September 2, 2013 at 01:07 AM When instructors and curriculum are approved and we begin teaching, will NRA basic pistol taught as the first 8 hours have to be taught by a certified IL ccw instructor?This is an EXCELLENT question.
ming Posted September 2, 2013 at 01:15 AM Posted September 2, 2013 at 01:15 AM When instructors and curriculum are approved and we begin teaching, will NRA basic pistol taught as the first 8 hours have to be taught by a certified IL ccw instructor? Why would it if you can bank 8 hours of NRA Basic Pistol. Any NRA pistol instructor should be fine for the first 8 hours then.
RacerDave6 Posted September 2, 2013 at 01:21 AM Posted September 2, 2013 at 01:21 AM When instructors and curriculum are approved and we begin teaching, will NRA basic pistol taught as the first 8 hours have to be taught by a certified IL ccw instructor? Why would it if you can bank 8 hours of NRA Basic Pistol. Any NRA pistol instructor should be fine for the first 8 hours then.I would agree, but this is Illannoy and we have Incompetent Stupid People making the rules
sirflyguy Posted September 2, 2013 at 01:26 AM Posted September 2, 2013 at 01:26 AM When instructors and curriculum are approved and we begin teaching, will NRA basic pistol taught as the first 8 hours have to be taught by a certified IL ccw instructor? Why would it if you can bank 8 hours of NRA Basic Pistol. Any NRA pistol instructor should be fine for the first 8 hours then.The logical side of me agrees with you. The side that trusts nothing this state government does is skeptical that the state government will be logical.
sirflyguy Posted September 2, 2013 at 01:27 AM Posted September 2, 2013 at 01:27 AM When instructors and curriculum are approved and we begin teaching, will NRA basic pistol taught as the first 8 hours have to be taught by a certified IL ccw instructor? Why would it if you can bank 8 hours of NRA Basic Pistol. Any NRA pistol instructor should be fine for the first 8 hours then.I would agree, but this is Illannoy and we have Incompetent Stupid People making the rulesRegarding your answer: great minds think alike...
AuroraInstructor Posted September 2, 2013 at 02:06 AM Posted September 2, 2013 at 02:06 AM Ok taking a closer look, how do we merge the ISP requirements 1-3 with NRA Basic Pistol? NRA Basic Pistol-Lesson I (2hr) Pistol Knowledge and Safe Gun HandlingLesson II (2hr) Ammunition and Fundamental of Pistol shootingLesson III (2hr) Firing the First ShotsLesson IV (1hr) Scoring Targets and Selecting and maintaining a PistolLesson V (1hr) Continued Opportuniites for Skill Development ISP-1. Firearm safety; Minimum 2 hours Classroom______ a. 4 basic fi rearm handling safety rules______ b. Home storage______ c. Vehicle storage______ d. Public Storage2. Basic principles of marksmanship; Minimum 3 hours Classroom/Range______ a. Stance______ b. Grip______ c. Sight Alignment______ d. Sight Picture______ e. Trigger Control3. Care, cleaning, loading, and unloading of a concealable firearm; Minimum 3 hours Classroom______ a. Gun identifi cation: revolver, semi-automatic, misc.______ b. Ammunition identifi cation and selection______ c. Safety and cleaning protocols______ d. Cleaning equipment______ e. Loading and unloading I can't see a way to make NRA basic pistol compatible with the ISP time requirements and stay true to the actual NRA curriculum without making the class 10 hours long. Where in the ISP program can I give the exam, talk about pistol selection, scoring targets etc. and stay true to the NRA class outline unless I add more time? What about basics of the class, like intro and facilities policies, where in the ISP time limit/section do I put these? I really don't like the idea of signing a document under the penalty of perjury with questions like these hanging over me. I'm starting to think I will get my instructor fingerprint/submission done next week and hang back a little on curriculum. Matt You guys are looking at this all too closely... If you teach Basic Pistol, the ISP says the student has satisfied #1 - #3 on their training outline, period. There is no reason to try to force the 2 classes to match. If you teach BP, the student has satisfied #1 - #3. If you choose to make your own curriculum for the first 8 hrs, the ISP has provided you a class outline. There is absolutely NO need to try to smash the 2 different options together into one. It seems like the blinders are on and some are thinking that NRA Basic Pistol is the only way to cover the first 8 hrs when that is simply not the case. Either teach Basic Pistol and allow your students to then "grandfather" in with 8 prior hrs, or use the ISP's outline to make your own class. Two distinct separate options for you to chose. Where exactly has the ISP said that NRA Basic Pistol satisfies 1-3 on the 16 hour training requirements? I have not seen it in writing anywhere, except tossed about on this forum to and fro. While I do respect Todd's insider knowledge, the only thing we have in writing (SO FAR) is that the NRA Basic Pistol course does NOT exactly match what the ISP is asking for.
wtr100 Posted September 2, 2013 at 02:18 AM Posted September 2, 2013 at 02:18 AM While NRA BP isn't listed yet now that I see NRA Basic Pistol Instructor listed ok for instructor I'd be very surprised to NOT see NRA Basic as accepted for the first 8 hours
bobapunk Posted September 2, 2013 at 03:43 AM Posted September 2, 2013 at 03:43 AM Ok taking a closer look, how do we merge the ISP requirements 1-3 with NRA Basic Pistol? NRA Basic Pistol-Lesson I (2hr) Pistol Knowledge and Safe Gun HandlingLesson II (2hr) Ammunition and Fundamental of Pistol shootingLesson III (2hr) Firing the First ShotsLesson IV (1hr) Scoring Targets and Selecting and maintaining a PistolLesson V (1hr) Continued Opportuniites for Skill Development ISP-1. Firearm safety; Minimum 2 hours Classroom______ a. 4 basic fi rearm handling safety rules______ b. Home storage______ c. Vehicle storage______ d. Public Storage2. Basic principles of marksmanship; Minimum 3 hours Classroom/Range______ a. Stance______ b. Grip______ c. Sight Alignment______ d. Sight Picture______ e. Trigger Control3. Care, cleaning, loading, and unloading of a concealable firearm; Minimum 3 hours Classroom______ a. Gun identifi cation: revolver, semi-automatic, misc.______ b. Ammunition identifi cation and selection______ c. Safety and cleaning protocols______ d. Cleaning equipment______ e. Loading and unloading I can't see a way to make NRA basic pistol compatible with the ISP time requirements and stay true to the actual NRA curriculum without making the class 10 hours long. Where in the ISP program can I give the exam, talk about pistol selection, scoring targets etc. and stay true to the NRA class outline unless I add more time? What about basics of the class, like intro and facilities policies, where in the ISP time limit/section do I put these? I really don't like the idea of signing a document under the penalty of perjury with questions like these hanging over me. I'm starting to think I will get my instructor fingerprint/submission done next week and hang back a little on curriculum. Matt You guys are looking at this all too closely... If you teach Basic Pistol, the ISP says the student has satisfied #1 - #3 on their training outline, period. There is no reason to try to force the 2 classes to match. If you teach BP, the student has satisfied #1 - #3. If you choose to make your own curriculum for the first 8 hrs, the ISP has provided you a class outline. There is absolutely NO need to try to smash the 2 different options together into one. It seems like the blinders are on and some are thinking that NRA Basic Pistol is the only way to cover the first 8 hrs when that is simply not the case. Either teach Basic Pistol and allow your students to then "grandfather" in with 8 prior hrs, or use the ISP's outline to make your own class. Two distinct separate options for you to chose. Where exactly has the ISP said that NRA Basic Pistol satisfies 1-3 on the 16 hour training requirements? I have not seen it in writing anywhere, except tossed about on this forum to and fro. While I do respect Todd's insider knowledge, the only thing we have in writing (SO FAR) is that the NRA Basic Pistol course does NOT exactly match what the ISP is asking for. Good point. My post was mis worded. I tend to do that when replying from my phone. I should have said "if the ISP approves Basic Pistol". I type on my phone much skier than I think sometimes... Anyway, I still think the point I was making is valid. If the ISP/FCCA allows grandfathering, it is not up to the instructors to second guess..
maxcapp Posted September 2, 2013 at 03:49 AM Posted September 2, 2013 at 03:49 AM Terry as soon as you are on this list on ISP. I would start teaching. Also you just make up your own certificates.
Craigcelia Posted September 2, 2013 at 08:22 PM Posted September 2, 2013 at 08:22 PM Also besides BP, does the 4 hours of Utah count. I thought it was mentioned at the Town Hall last week in Elmhurst it would count for 4 hours. We should give those who have it, credit for 4 hours and teaching 12 if instructors so choose. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
RacerDave6 Posted September 2, 2013 at 08:42 PM Posted September 2, 2013 at 08:42 PM Also besides BP, does the 4 hours of Utah count. I thought it was mentioned at the Town Hall last week in Elmhurst it would count for 4 hours. We should give those who have it, credit for 4 hours and teaching 12 if instructors so choose. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2Sure, but for which 4 hrs?What is covered in the Utah class that is listed on the curriculum affidavit?(I do not have a Utah permit, so I don't know what was covered in that class)
Craigcelia Posted September 2, 2013 at 09:14 PM Posted September 2, 2013 at 09:14 PM Also besides BP, does the 4 hours of Utah count. I thought it was mentioned at the Town Hall last week in Elmhurst it would count for 4 hours. We should give those who have it, credit for 4 hours and teaching 12 if instructors so choose. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2Sure, but for which 4 hrs?What is covered in the Utah class that is listed on the curriculum affidavit?(I do not have a Utah permit, so I don't know what was covered in that class) The first part of Utah is safety, fundamentals, parts and operation, single vs. double action, etc. Much of sections 1 to 3 really. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
RacerDave6 Posted September 2, 2013 at 09:53 PM Posted September 2, 2013 at 09:53 PM Also besides BP, does the 4 hours of Utah count. I thought it was mentioned at the Town Hall last week in Elmhurst it would count for 4 hours. We should give those who have it, credit for 4 hours and teaching 12 if instructors so choose. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2Sure, but for which 4 hrs?What is covered in the Utah class that is listed on the curriculum affidavit?(I do not have a Utah permit, so I don't know what was covered in that class) The first part of Utah is safety, fundamentals, parts and operation, single vs. double action, etc. Much of sections 1 to 3 really. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2Ok, however the curriculum affidavit you are certifying 8/16 hr or 3 hr refresher. There is no 12 hr course.The more we look the harder they made it for us.
Craigcelia Posted September 2, 2013 at 11:20 PM Posted September 2, 2013 at 11:20 PM Ok, however the curriculum affidavit you are certifying 8/16 hr or 3 hr refresher. There is no 12 hr course.The more we look the harder they made it for us. I know..that's why I was surprised when I had seen they specifically list the "8/16" listed on the ISP website. I guess we'll see. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
wtr100 Posted September 2, 2013 at 11:26 PM Posted September 2, 2013 at 11:26 PM Ok, however the curriculum affidavit you are certifying 8/16 hr or 3 hr refresher. There is no 12 hr course.The more we look the harder they made it for us. I know..that's why I was surprised when I had seen they specifically list the "8/16" listed on the ISP website. I guess we'll see. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2 is it just me or did the ISP forget to 'proof read' the stuff
maxcapp Posted September 2, 2013 at 11:28 PM Posted September 2, 2013 at 11:28 PM I think you guys are worried about Utah course. I am not going to accept it. If it is not 8 hours then I won't accept it
sirflyguy Posted September 2, 2013 at 11:32 PM Posted September 2, 2013 at 11:32 PM Ok, however the curriculum affidavit you are certifying 8/16 hr or 3 hr refresher. There is no 12 hr course.The more we look the harder they made it for us. I know..that's why I was surprised when I had seen they specifically list the "8/16" listed on the ISP website. I guess we'll see. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2 is it just me or did the ISP forget to 'proof read' the stuffIt isn't just you.
RacerDave6 Posted September 2, 2013 at 11:40 PM Posted September 2, 2013 at 11:40 PM I think you guys are worried about Utah course. I am not going to accept it. If it is not 8 hours then I won't accept itYou may not have a choice. If ISP says it's good for X number of hours of previous training, it has to be good.You won't have to accept those people as students, but there are a lot of people in IL with Utah permits.
bobapunk Posted September 3, 2013 at 12:22 AM Posted September 3, 2013 at 12:22 AM The ISP released outlines for 16 hours and 8 hours... If they allow Utah for 4 hours there will be a giant cluster... Specific 12 hour class only for people who already have Utah permits? They should just allow 8 And make it simpler, not more complicated.
maxcapp Posted September 3, 2013 at 01:09 AM Posted September 3, 2013 at 01:09 AM Why should Il care about Utah. No one made people take the course. I do not think Il should do anything. They should just leave it alone.
F12Mahon Posted September 3, 2013 at 02:21 AM Posted September 3, 2013 at 02:21 AM If they allow 4 hours for Utah, and 4 hours for Florida, wouldn't that be the 8 hours banked? Or am I misunderstanding something? I've got my DD214 so I'm not worried about other training being banked. Eugene
RacerDave6 Posted September 3, 2013 at 02:23 AM Posted September 3, 2013 at 02:23 AM If they allow 4 hours for Utah, and 4 hours for Florida, wouldn't that be the 8 hours banked? Or am I misunderstanding something? I've got my DD214 so I'm not worried about other training being banked. EugeneYes, it would be allowed.You would probably need paperwork from those instructors/classes certifying as to the length of them.
mjw45 Posted September 3, 2013 at 04:18 AM Author Posted September 3, 2013 at 04:18 AM All the questions from this thread have been added to the list of questions for Todd Concealed Carry Instructor questions for Todd. If there are any more questions please get them posted as soon as possible, Todd has said the will start working on them Tuesday. Thanks, Matt
sirflyguy Posted September 3, 2013 at 01:19 PM Posted September 3, 2013 at 01:19 PM Since I was fingerprinted before the ISP posted the form, I am guessing I need to have a copy of my handwritten receipt (has TCN on it) photocopied and stapled to the ISP form. Thoughts?
Onytay Posted September 3, 2013 at 01:20 PM Posted September 3, 2013 at 01:20 PM Since I was fingerprinted before the ISP posted the form, I am guessing I need to have a copy of my handwritten receipt (has TCN on it) photocopied and stapled to the ISP form. Thoughts? I just pulled the info off the receipt and filled in the form.
bigdudez25 Posted September 3, 2013 at 02:09 PM Posted September 3, 2013 at 02:09 PM My father teaches NRA Basic Pistol course, and Personal Protection Inside the Home. Both these courses combined cover all the curriculum requirements for IL CCW, and total roughly 17 hours of class time. Is this acceptable?
2atrainers Posted September 3, 2013 at 03:24 PM Posted September 3, 2013 at 03:24 PM Question for the ISP: What provision, if any, is being made for out of state permit applicants to get their prints done? Will out of state applicants, without a trip to IL and a Live Scan vendor, be required to wait the additional 30 days for approval using paper prints or will paper prints, perhaps done by a law enforcement agency located near to the applicants home, be adequate to prevent undue delay?
mjw45 Posted September 3, 2013 at 03:31 PM Author Posted September 3, 2013 at 03:31 PM My father teaches NRA Basic Pistol course, and Personal Protection Inside the Home. Both these courses combined cover all the curriculum requirements for IL CCW, and total roughly 17 hours of class time. Is this acceptable? Not as it stands right now. Have you looked at the Concealed Carry License Curriculum Approval Form? The second 8 hours is completely IL specific with time restrictions, no relation to any other currently available class. Todd will have more info for us in the future. Matt
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