C0untZer0 Posted October 17, 2011 at 06:03 PM Posted October 17, 2011 at 06:03 PM I know some states require training classes. Is there training available in Ilinois that likely to be accepted as meeting the training requirments ? I am wondering if it would pay to take training now that likely would be accepted, or wait until legislation is passed and then see what training is required. The only reason I don't want to wait though is that there will be such a rush to get into training classes that there will probably also be a long wait.
soundguy Posted October 17, 2011 at 06:51 PM Posted October 17, 2011 at 06:51 PM As I recall, HB 148 included Illinois specific training. You will most likely be required to take the Illinois course, unless requirements change.
NakPPI Posted October 17, 2011 at 09:48 PM Posted October 17, 2011 at 09:48 PM The way hb 148 is written, one would have to take an 8 hour training class, take a written test, qualify at specific yardage with a silhouette target and re-qualify every 5 years or compete in a pistol competition 6 months prior to renewal. It's unlikely illinois would accept any out of state permit or training as hb 148 is written. If we win court cases, we may end up with something like Florida which just requires a class and a demonstration that you can safely fire a gun for it's training requirement.
mauserme Posted October 17, 2011 at 10:01 PM Posted October 17, 2011 at 10:01 PM Hey Nak, was it you that posted about a statement being made at the La Shawn Ford townhall meeting that HB148 might be scrapped if we get a good court decision? I meant to follow up on that at the time but it slipped my mind.
bob Posted October 17, 2011 at 10:15 PM Posted October 17, 2011 at 10:15 PM Being as HB148 is on life support right now, but not quite dead yet, it may not matter much what is in it training wise. As training requirements go, what was in it was relativelt inoffensive. I especially liked the part where the ISP has to produce a video. It quite neatly gets around them claiming a different "interpretation" of the law as they have with so called fanny pack carry.
xmikex Posted October 17, 2011 at 10:46 PM Posted October 17, 2011 at 10:46 PM -If you own firearms, you SHOULD get formal firearms training from a professional instructor / company.-There's no way to know what the IL requirements will be.-While I'm a HUGE training junkie (600+hours in the past 5 years or so), I don't think you should be required to get training to exercise a fundamental right. (There aren't any mandatory "Bullhorn-Owner" or "Poster-Maker" training classes for your first amendment rights)
kurt555gs Posted October 18, 2011 at 12:10 AM Posted October 18, 2011 at 12:10 AM We all agree it will be a while before a court case can force the passage of HB148. I think many people would like to see a training course regarding the laws we have right now in Illinois. Perhaps the following could be used as a guide to put together an Illinois Self Defense course. What is "container carry" and which home rule entities in Illinois have local ordinances preventing it.What areas are off limits for container carry outside of home rule jurisdictions.How does the federal Gun Free School Zone law affect container carry?When is deadly force appropriate (Similar to the Utah course)How to safely handle a firearm.What happens when I open my "container" and load my weapon to defend myself legally?I am sure there are many more areas that should be covered, but I am just suggesting these as a start. Container Carry is far from what we would like, but it is what we have. I do not see the point of keeping our collective heads in the sand and having people possibly violate the law because some of us don't want to deal with our current situation. I think good, and accurate information and the above topics (and more) about the laws regarding firearms in Illinois as they are right now will be helpful to many people. It may be some time before HB148 goes anywhere, and proper training and even maps of off limit areas for container carry is what is needed right now, and for some time to come.
Drylok Posted October 18, 2011 at 02:33 AM Posted October 18, 2011 at 02:33 AM -If you own firearms, you SHOULD get formal firearms training from a professional instructor / company.-There's no way to know what the IL requirements will be.-While I'm a HUGE training junkie (600+hours in the past 5 years or so), I don't think you should be required to get training to exercise a fundamental right. (There aren't any mandatory "Bullhorn-Owner" or "Poster-Maker" training classes for your first amendment rights) As an instructor I agree
The 45 King Posted October 18, 2011 at 02:40 AM Posted October 18, 2011 at 02:40 AM They probably gonna make it dam near like joining the police force. Smh!
Davey Posted October 18, 2011 at 06:39 AM Posted October 18, 2011 at 06:39 AM They probably gonna make it dam near like joining the police force. Smh! Actually the way it's written hb148 it's not horrifically difficult.
Uncle Harley Posted October 18, 2011 at 01:24 PM Posted October 18, 2011 at 01:24 PM We all agree it will be a while before a court case can force the passage of HB148. I think many people would like to see a training course regarding the laws we have right now in Illinois. Perhaps the following could be used as a guide to put together an Illinois Self Defense course. What is "container carry" and which home rule entities in Illinois have local ordinances preventing it.What areas are off limits for container carry outside of home rule jurisdictions.How does the federal Gun Free School Zone law affect container carry?When is deadly force appropriate (Similar to the Utah course)How to safely handle a firearm.What happens when I open my "container" and load my weapon to defend myself legally?I am sure there are many more areas that should be covered, but I am just suggesting these as a start. Container Carry is far from what we would like, but it is what we have. I do not see the point of keeping our collective heads in the sand and having people possibly violate the law because some of us don't want to deal with our current situation. I think good, and accurate information and the above topics (and more) about the laws regarding firearms in Illinois as they are right now will be helpful to many people. It may be some time before HB148 goes anywhere, and proper training and even maps of off limit areas for container carry is what is needed right now, and for some time to come. I agree, we need to spell it out clearly I was recently chatting with my local Sherrifs Dept asking them questions about container carry, and they pointed me to the Bruner case I believe???? ( the lady that entered a courthouse with an unloaded gun in her purse) It was overturned on the UUW as the purse I believe was determined to be a container, but she was in violation of other statutes which were upheld. ( carrying a weapon into a publically funded building without permission) They said that on it's face fanny pack carry was perfectly legal, but warned me to study the case to answer any questions about other circumstances.
Uncle Harley Posted October 18, 2011 at 05:29 PM Posted October 18, 2011 at 05:29 PM We all agree it will be a while before a court case can force the passage of HB148. I think many people would like to see a training course regarding the laws we have right now in Illinois. Perhaps the following could be used as a guide to put together an Illinois Self Defense course. What is "container carry" and which home rule entities in Illinois have local ordinances preventing it.What areas are off limits for container carry outside of home rule jurisdictions.How does the federal Gun Free School Zone law affect container carry?When is deadly force appropriate (Similar to the Utah course)How to safely handle a firearm.What happens when I open my "container" and load my weapon to defend myself legally?I am sure there are many more areas that should be covered, but I am just suggesting these as a start. Container Carry is far from what we would like, but it is what we have. I do not see the point of keeping our collective heads in the sand and having people possibly violate the law because some of us don't want to deal with our current situation. I think good, and accurate information and the above topics (and more) about the laws regarding firearms in Illinois as they are right now will be helpful to many people. It may be some time before HB148 goes anywhere, and proper training and even maps of off limit areas for container carry is what is needed right now, and for some time to come. I agree, we need to spell it out clearly I was recently chatting with my local Sherrifs Dept asking them questions about container carry, and they pointed me to the Bruner case I believe???? ( the lady that entered a courthouse with an unloaded gun in her purse) It was overturned on the UUW as the purse I believe was determined to be a container, but she was in violation of other statutes which were upheld. ( carrying a weapon into a publically funded building without permission) They said that on it's face fanny pack carry was perfectly legal, but warned me to study the case to answer any questions about other circumstances. it would be nice to produce a flier like PA has for Open carry http://paopencarry.org/no-guns-no-money-cards
kurt555gs Posted October 18, 2011 at 11:19 PM Posted October 18, 2011 at 11:19 PM Seriously, it would be nice to have some of the companies that do Utah, and other training courses to put together a professional Illinois container carry course.
Drylok Posted October 19, 2011 at 02:09 AM Posted October 19, 2011 at 02:09 AM We all agree it will be a while before a court case can force the passage of HB148. I think many people would like to see a training course regarding the laws we have right now in Illinois. Perhaps the following could be used as a guide to put together an Illinois Self Defense course. What is "container carry" and which home rule entities in Illinois have local ordinances preventing it.What areas are off limits for container carry outside of home rule jurisdictions.How does the federal Gun Free School Zone law affect container carry?When is deadly force appropriate (Similar to the Utah course)How to safely handle a firearm.What happens when I open my "container" and load my weapon to defend myself legally?I am sure there are many more areas that should be covered, but I am just suggesting these as a start. Container Carry is far from what we would like, but it is what we have. I do not see the point of keeping our collective heads in the sand and having people possibly violate the law because some of us don't want to deal with our current situation. I think good, and accurate information and the above topics (and more) about the laws regarding firearms in Illinois as they are right now will be helpful to many people. It may be some time before HB148 goes anywhere, and proper training and even maps of off limit areas for container carry is what is needed right now, and for some time to come. I agree, we need to spell it out clearly I was recently chatting with my local Sherrifs Dept asking them questions about container carry, and they pointed me to the Bruner case I believe???? ( the lady that entered a courthouse with an unloaded gun in her purse) It was overturned on the UUW as the purse I believe was determined to be a container, but she was in violation of other statutes which were upheld. ( carrying a weapon into a publically funded building without permission) They said that on it's face fanny pack carry was perfectly legal, but warned me to study the case to answer any questions about other circumstances. it would be nice to produce a flier like PA has for Open carry http://paopencarry.o...-no-money-cards Do you post on PAFOA? I'm Drylok there too
soundguy Posted October 19, 2011 at 02:48 AM Posted October 19, 2011 at 02:48 AM Seriously, it would be nice to have some of the companies that do Utah, and other training courses to put together a professional Illinois container carry course. I think there would be a ton of liability issues by teaching "container carry" in Illinois. As I read the law, this is a legal way to transport and was never intended as a way to "almost carry". Probably best left for bold risk takers to figure out on their own, or amongst very close friends. Calling it "carry" of any kind seems inappropriate.
abolt243 Posted October 19, 2011 at 03:04 AM Posted October 19, 2011 at 03:04 AM Seriously, it would be nice to have some of the companies that do Utah, and other training courses to put together a professional Illinois container carry course. I think there would be a ton of liability issues by teaching "container carry" in Illinois. As I read the law, this is a legal way to transport and was never intended as a way to "almost carry". Probably best left for bold risk takers to figure out on their own, or amongst very close friends. Calling it "carry" of any kind seems inappropriate.It's a "poor man's" carry at best. Having classes would only serve to legitimize it, causing some folks to think "that's good enough". It's not. AB
kurt555gs Posted October 19, 2011 at 04:07 AM Posted October 19, 2011 at 04:07 AM What I was trying to say is "container carry" is the law we have, and will probably be stuck with for several years to come. Why not put together an accurate handbook of it's limitations and liabilities so those inclined to do so will have a good guide of where it is legal, and what happens if they need to ever un-zip that fanny pack or open that center console. Obviously we all want a real concealed carry law. We don't have it now, nor will we for quite a while. Good, accurate information, as convoluted and complicated as the laws for "container carry" are in this state can only help. I am not saying it is a replacement of an actual concealed carry law. I am not trying to use this as political strategy aka "legitimize" container carry. I simply was saying a complete and accurate handbook and course on this subject would be helpful to all in this state that are interested in self protection with a firearm, and want to comply with the law as it is.
soundguy Posted October 19, 2011 at 01:44 PM Posted October 19, 2011 at 01:44 PM What I was trying to say is "container carry" is the law we have... I simply was saying a complete and accurate handbook and course on this subject would be helpful to all in this state that are interested in self protection with a firearm, and want to comply with the law as it is. The state already has a pamphlet explaining proper legal ways to TRANSPORT a gun in Illinois. There is really nothing else to know. Carry is not legal in Illinois. Container carry is not law...
Uncle Harley Posted October 19, 2011 at 03:29 PM Posted October 19, 2011 at 03:29 PM Do you post on PAFOA? I'm Drylok there too nope I just found that site looking for the no gun no money cards. This and one other site I just signed up for yesterday are the only gun related boards I'm on.
Uncle Harley Posted October 19, 2011 at 03:38 PM Posted October 19, 2011 at 03:38 PM What I was trying to say is "container carry" is the law we have... I simply was saying a complete and accurate handbook and course on this subject would be helpful to all in this state that are interested in self protection with a firearm, and want to comply with the law as it is. The state already has a pamphlet explaining proper legal ways to TRANSPORT a gun in Illinois. There is really nothing else to know. Carry is not legal in Illinois. Container carry is not law... This is what my county sherrif's office replied to me when I asked for their official opinion of fanny pack carry based on the case law People vs. Diggins Our "official stance" is simply that you carry your firearm in compliance with the statutes. That being said we understand the statutes can sometimes leave more questions than answers, and case law will help give us all a more clear picture. The case law you referenced above is a good reference for that type of question. Illinois vs. Bruner may also help clear it up as it has similar facts to the case which are closer to your question http://www.state.il.us/court/Opinions/AppellateCourt/1996/4thDistrict/December/HTML/4951016.txt And then they went on to say ............................The quick answer is carry your firearm unloaded, in a case and have a valid FOID card.. using the relevant case law as your guide a "fanny pack" should keep you in compliance. And then specifically about the Bruner case they gave me a link to........................... The exemption appeared to be for the "transportation" of the firearm, but in that case she failed to abide by other requirements which the courts upheld. We would encourage you closely research the "other requirements" and adhere to them. So they are saying, yes it is legal, but there are other requirements which one must follow, This is where I think a pamphlet or somehting we could print off and pass out would be helpfull to educate everyone on the "other requirements" such as you can not transport a firearm into a courthouse or other publicly funded building like Bruner did.
C0untZer0 Posted October 19, 2011 at 03:56 PM Author Posted October 19, 2011 at 03:56 PM A container carry class is probably not going to be sufficient for a CCW permit for whatever carry law we do end up with, right? If a class is required it usually also involves some training on when lethal force is acceptable / legal and when it's not - stuff like that I assume.
Uncle Harley Posted October 19, 2011 at 06:04 PM Posted October 19, 2011 at 06:04 PM A container carry class is probably not going to be sufficient for a CCW permit for whatever carry law we do end up with, right? If a class is required it usually also involves some training on when lethal force is acceptable / legal and when it's not - stuff like that I assume. ah sorry, we kindof got of topic on a tangent, No a container carry class would not be sufficient for ccw, but we are discussing trainging about what we CAN legally do right now with is transport a weapon unloaded and enclosed in a case, but there are limits for example you can not transport a weapon in or through a publicly funded building such as a courthouse.
kurt555gs Posted October 19, 2011 at 06:05 PM Posted October 19, 2011 at 06:05 PM A container carry class is probably not going to be sufficient for a CCW permit for whatever carry law we do end up with, right? If a class is required it usually also involves some training on when lethal force is acceptable / legal and when it's not - stuff like that I assume. No, I think a container carry class should have lethal force training, just like the Utah classes do. When we finally get a real concealed carry law in Illinois, the classes will be specific to that, and we can all go back and take that class too. I am not suggestion a container carry class would in any way qualify for concealed carry. It will in fact be much more complicated because of conflicting laws. I just think it's time we pull our collective heads out of the sand and have classes to educate people about the law we actually have in Illinois.
Uncle Harley Posted October 19, 2011 at 06:56 PM Posted October 19, 2011 at 06:56 PM A container carry class is probably not going to be sufficient for a CCW permit for whatever carry law we do end up with, right? If a class is required it usually also involves some training on when lethal force is acceptable / legal and when it's not - stuff like that I assume. No, I think a container carry class should have lethal force training, just like the Utah classes do. When we finally get a real concealed carry law in Illinois, the classes will be specific to that, and we can all go back and take that class too. I am not suggestion a container carry class would in any way qualify for concealed carry. It will in fact be much more complicated because of conflicting laws. I just think it's time we pull our collective heads out of the sand and have classes to educate people about the law we actually have in Illinois. agreed, mean time, here is a good start for do's and don'ts read page 5 which call out viloations in specific places. This is what Bruner was charged on.
abolt243 Posted October 19, 2011 at 11:24 PM Posted October 19, 2011 at 11:24 PM This is what my county sherrif's office replied to me when I asked for their official opinion of fanny pack carry based on the case law People vs. Diggins Our "official stance" is simply that you carry your firearm in compliance with the statutes. That being said we understand the statutes can sometimes leave more questions than answers, and case law will help give us all a more clear picture. The case law you referenced above is a good reference for that type of question. Illinois vs. Bruner may also help clear it up as it has similar facts to the case which are closer to your question http://www.state.il.us/court/Opinions/AppellateCourt/1996/4thDistrict/December/HTML/4951016.txt And then they went on to say ............................The quick answer is carry your firearm unloaded, in a case and have a valid FOID card.. using the relevant case law as your guide a "fanny pack" should keep you in compliance. And then specifically about the Bruner case they gave me a link to........................... The exemption appeared to be for the "transportation" of the firearm, but in that case she failed to abide by other requirements which the courts upheld. We would encourage you closely research the "other requirements" and adhere to them. So they are saying, yes it is legal, but there are other requirements which one must follow, This is where I think a pamphlet or somehting we could print off and pass out would be helpfull to educate everyone on the "other requirements" such as you can not transport a firearm into a courthouse or other publicly funded building like Bruner did. The problem being, not all sheriffs and LEO agencies in the state interpret the law the same way. Sent that same question to Sheriff Dart of Cook and see what his response is! AB
kurt555gs Posted October 20, 2011 at 12:58 AM Posted October 20, 2011 at 12:58 AM Then abolt, we come to the root cause. If this is the case, why would you expect Sheriff Dart to "interpret" a new concealed carry law any differently than the law now? HB148 will pass, people will go through training and background checks, they will get their permit, and Tom Dart will have them arrested. It is arrogance and contempt for laws they don't like in Cook county. Why would you think it will be any different with a new law than it is with the one we have now?
abolt243 Posted October 20, 2011 at 01:05 AM Posted October 20, 2011 at 01:05 AM Then abolt, we come to the root cause. If this is the case, why would you expect Sheriff Dart to "interpret" a new concealed carry law any differently than the law now? HB148 will pass, people will go through training and background checks, they will get their permit, and Tom Dart will have them arrested. It is arrogance and contempt for laws they don't like in Cook county. Why would you think it will be any different with a new law than it is with the one we have now? I'm sure he'll try Kurt, but the difference being that HB148 specifically says that regulation of carry is the duty of the state and that no home rule unit will regulate it. If Mr. Dart or any other bureaucrat oversteps thier bounds, then they'll be taken to court on a 1983 civil rights violation. Unfortunately, the statute that we say gives us "container carry" is not as specific, and it IS subject to home rule.
Molly B. Posted October 20, 2011 at 01:45 AM Posted October 20, 2011 at 01:45 AM Is there training available in Ilinois that likely to be accepted as meeting the training requirments ? Posts have definitely gone off topic here - let's get back to the original question.
abolt243 Posted October 20, 2011 at 01:48 AM Posted October 20, 2011 at 01:48 AM Is there training available in Ilinois that likely to be accepted as meeting the training requirments ? Posts have definitely gone off topic here - let's get back to the original question.True enough Molly, in answer to the orignal question; We won't know until the law is passed.
Uncle Harley Posted October 20, 2011 at 12:38 PM Posted October 20, 2011 at 12:38 PM I'm sure he'll try Kurt, but the difference being that HB148 specifically says that regulation of carry is the duty of the state and that no home rule unit will regulate it. If Mr. Dart or any other bureaucrat oversteps thier bounds, then they'll be taken to court on a 1983 civil rights violation. Unfortunately, the statute that we say gives us "container carry" is not as specific, and it IS subject to home rule. isn't home rule nothing more that a city ordinance? It is my understanding that felony charges can not be brought up agains city ordinance violations, You could not get away with fanny pack carry in the particular town I live in either due to their city ordinance being more strict than state law.
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