Chicago "tweaking" gun range ordinance

[Yas]

 

In July, the council approved Mayor Rahm Emanuel’s proposal to allow the gun ranges as the city tried to get out front of an anticipated federal appellate court ruling striking down ban on such facilities. Gun ranges had to be confined to manufacturing areas and meet a slew of other restrictions.

 

But the appellate court ruling forced further changes, said M. Rose Kelly, senior counsel at the city Law Department.

 

“We were trying to anticipate how the court would rule,” Kelly said. “But now that we have been able to review the ruling and the court’s decision, we’ve looked at the shooting range ordinance and feel that it needs some tweaking in some areas to come into compliance.”

 

Can you say Its yet another result of knee jerk , hastily enacted piss poor legislation?

Awe heck forget about it Jake, It's Chicago.......

 

More at link

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/clout/chi-city-council-tweaks-chicago-gun-range-restrictions-20110906,0,4056588.story

[mauserme]

It would require gun range owners keep records of everyone who used their facilities after ensuring each patron had a state firearm owner's identification card and city firearm permit.

Still more discrimination. How can they think they're on the moral high ground when they bar every single non-resident of Chicago from engaging in a legal activity?

[kurt555gs]

Chicago just being "cute" by making it financially impossible for a gun range to operate and slapping a couple of defendants and a judge in the face at the same time. Laws are for us, not for them.

[SFC Stu]

It would require gun range owners keep records of everyone who used their facilities after ensuring each patron had a state firearm owner's identification card and city firearm permit.

Still more discrimination. How can they think they're on the moral high ground when they bar every single non-resident of Chicago from engaging in a legal activity?

 

I live out of state. Are you saying that Chicago can bar me from shooting a legally owned firearm on a public range? That would be grounds for a law suit.

[Yas]

Lets start out with Chicago currently has NO gun range that is available for anyone that is not an LEO.

 

Thus currently why there is a lawsuit at this time.

 

 

Edit to add other than the south-side of chicago where gang members decide to set up impromptu drive by shooting ranges. But they don't have FOID's or register their guns ether.

[Ocellairs]

It would require gun range owners keep records of everyone who used their facilities after ensuring each patron had a state firearm owner's identification card and city firearm permit.

Still more discrimination. How can they think they're on the moral high ground when they bar every single non-resident of Chicago from engaging in a legal activity?

 

 

I'm a member of a range downstate here. We are required to log in at the range we are shooting at, and upon leaving log out. If we are the last one to leave the range were required to lock the cattle gate also.

 

Also we are required to ask another range user if they are members, and if so, ask to see their membership card. No card, they are escorted off the range.

 

When we apply for application to be a member of the range, they ask if we have a FOID card and if we are members of the NRA. No FOID, no membership.

[Ocellairs]

It would require gun range owners keep records of everyone who used their facilities after ensuring each patron had a state firearm owner's identification card and city firearm permit.

Still more discrimination. How can they think they're on the moral high ground when they bar every single non-resident of Chicago from engaging in a legal activity?

 

I live out of state. Are you saying that Chicago can bar me from shooting a legally owned firearm on a public range? That would be grounds for a law suit.

 

Someone on the forum a few years back found that any range that was built using Federal funds could be used by the public. So all those LEO ranges, if they had funds coming from the FEDS, we get to use them.

[SFC Stu]

It would require gun range owners keep records of everyone who used their facilities after ensuring each patron had a state firearm owner's identification card and city firearm permit.

Still more discrimination. How can they think they're on the moral high ground when they bar every single non-resident of Chicago from engaging in a legal activity?

 

I live out of state. Are you saying that Chicago can bar me from shooting a legally owned firearm on a public range? That would be grounds for a law suit.

 

Someone on the forum a few years back found that any range that was built using Federal funds could be used by the public. So all those LEO ranges, if they had funds coming from the FEDS, we get to use them.

 

I was on Active Duty with the National Guard back in the 1980's as the Operations Sergeant. A young, cocky, know it all officer ordered me to throw a civilian pistol club out of the Armory.

I refused and he got beligerant! I finally had to shove the Army Regulation under his nose that stated the ranges were built with federal funds, for civilian marksmanship! We never got along well after that and I do not regret it!

[Smittyp83]

It would require gun range owners keep records of everyone who used their facilities after ensuring each patron had a state firearm owner's identification card and city firearm permit.

Still more discrimination. How can they think they're on the moral high ground when they bar every single non-resident of Chicago from engaging in a legal activity?

 

 

I'm a member of a range downstate here. We are required to log in at the range we are shooting at, and upon leaving log out. If we are the last one to leave the range were required to lock the cattle gate also.

 

Also we are required to ask another range user if they are members, and if so, ask to see their membership card. No card, they are escorted off the range.

 

When we apply for application to be a member of the range, they ask if we have a FOID card and if we are members of the NRA. No FOID, no membership.

 

 

You are a member of a private club. This would be a public shooting range.

[Jeckler]

It would require gun range owners keep records of everyone who used their facilities after ensuring each patron had a state firearm owner's identification card and city firearm permit.

Still more discrimination. How can they think they're on the moral high ground when they bar every single non-resident of Chicago from engaging in a legal activity?

 

Unless I am missing something obvious, this is now a circular reference. It's now a function of which came first, the chicken or the egg...

 

Ezell essentially said that if Chicago is going to enact regulations to include range time, then there must be provisions for a range. Otherwise, its a defacto ban.

 

In order to get a CFP, you must have range time / training. In order to use the range, you must have a CFP. You can't do one without the other. Chicken or egg?

 

Unless there is a provision / exception for training classes, this regulation will never fly.

[gangrel]

It would require gun range owners keep records of everyone who used their facilities after ensuring each patron had a state firearm owner's identification card and city firearm permit.

Still more discrimination. How can they think they're on the moral high ground when they bar every single non-resident of Chicago from engaging in a legal activity?

 

Unless I am missing something obvious, this is now a circular reference. It's now a function of which came first, the chicken or the egg...

 

Ezell essentially said that if Chicago is going to enact regulations to include range time, then there must be provisions for a range. Otherwise, its a defacto ban.

 

In order to get a CFP, you must have range time / training. In order to use the range, you must have a CFP. You can't do one without the other. Chicken or egg?

 

Unless there is a provision / exception for training classes, this regulation will never fly.

 

Nice catch!

[Federal Farmer]

I suspect that a CFP won't be required for non-Chicago residents. Show an FOID with a Chicago residence and you better have a CFP.

 

Trainees won't require a CFP either, as they aren't bringing guns anyway. The instructor will have to provide firearms for trainees to qualify with.

[lockman]

It would require gun range owners keep records of everyone who used their facilities after ensuring each patron had a state firearm owner's identification card and city firearm permit.

Still more discrimination. How can they think they're on the moral high ground when they bar every single non-resident of Chicago from engaging in a legal activity?

 

I live out of state. Are you saying that Chicago can bar me from shooting a legally owned firearm on a public range? That would be grounds for a law suit.

 

Someone on the forum a few years back found that any range that was built using Federal funds could be used by the public. So all those LEO ranges, if they had funds coming from the FEDS, we get to use them.

 

Would that include the range in the federal building used by federal LEO?

[Joeyl]

It would require gun range owners keep records of everyone who used their facilities after ensuring each patron had a state firearm owner's identification card and city firearm permit.

Still more discrimination. How can they think they're on the moral high ground when they bar every single non-resident of Chicago from engaging in a legal activity?

 

I live out of state. Are you saying that Chicago can bar me from shooting a legally owned firearm on a public range? That would be grounds for a law suit.

 

Someone on the forum a few years back found that any range that was built using Federal funds could be used by the public. So all those LEO ranges, if they had funds coming from the FEDS, we get to use them.

 

Would that include the range in the federal building used by federal LEO?

Wow that would be cool. I found the law, it sounds pretty straightforward. 10 USC § 4309 but IANAL. Just emailed the Chicago FBI office asking for the public access schedule for the Federal Building and the North Chicago Range, the response (if I get one) might be interesting.

[Federal Farmer]

Wow that would be cool. I found the law, it sounds pretty straightforward. 10 USC § 4309 but IANAL. Just emailed the Chicago FBI office asking for the public access schedule for the Federal Building and the North Chicago Range, the response (if I get one) might be interesting.

 

There is a rifle-rated range in the Federal Reserve building on La Salle street that I'd love to use...It was built by Action Target (or whatever their name is) which is a company that is one of the plaintiffs in Ezell.

[mrmagloo]

Is there a way to get a listing of ALL of the Federal Ranges in the Chicago metro area?

[Joeyl]

Wow that would be cool. I found the law, it sounds pretty straightforward. 10 USC § 4309 but IANAL. Just emailed the Chicago FBI office asking for the public access schedule for the Federal Building and the North Chicago Range, the response (if I get one) might be interesting.

 

There is a rifle-rated range in the Federal Reserve building on La Salle street that I'd love to use...It was built by Action Target (or whatever their name is) which is a company that is one of the plaintiffs in Ezell.

 

 

Do you know which agency runs it? Does anybody have a listing of Chicago area police and govt. ranges?

[chip]

Regarding public use of federally funded ranges,

I read 10 USC § 4309, it specifically refers to Rifle Ranges. That could be their out.

 

As for Chicago's "tweaks", I agree that as written it would make it VERY unattractive for anyone to invest in a range that would only allow the small percentage of Chicago residents that hold or seek to hold a CFP. It needs to be open to anyone with an FOID, or anyone seeking training from a certified instructor. Last I heard, it's at least half a million per shooting lane after you figure in all the costs.

[Federal Farmer]

Regarding public use of federally funded ranges,

I read 10 USC § 4309, it specifically refers to Rifle Ranges. That could be their out.

 

As for Chicago's "tweaks", I agree that as written it would make it VERY unattractive for anyone to invest in a range that would only allow the small percentage of Chicago residents that hold or seek to hold a CFP. It needs to be open to anyone with an FOID, or anyone seeking training from a certified instructor. Last I heard, it's at least half a million per shooting lane after you figure in all the costs.

 

The range in the Fed Reserve building is rifle-rated. I'd like to bring in my AR-15/M4...

[Xwing]

As for Chicago's "tweaks", I agree that as written it would make it VERY unattractive for anyone to invest in a range that would only allow the small percentage of Chicago residents that hold or seek to hold a CFP. It needs to be open to anyone with an FOID, or anyone seeking training from a certified instructor. Last I heard, it's at least half a million per shooting lane after you figure in all the costs.

 

And it ignores the whole point of the court case. If Chicago requires citizens to qualify at a range before issuing a firearm permit, they must allow such ranges to exist. If it's only for current CFP holders, how would a prospective owner be able to practice before qualifying for a permit? (Of course, the whole "range qualification" before being allowed to own a firearm is ridiculous anyway.

[Davey]

A while ago I read the ordinance and it made an exception for people visiting to qualify for the permit.

[Thirdpower]

A while ago I read the ordinance and it made an exception for people visiting to qualify for the permit.

 

So that begs the question as to what level of proof will one need to present to show you're actively trying to qualify and what kind of liability they will face if they get scammed.

[Joeyl]

Regarding public use of federally funded ranges,

I read 10 USC § 4309, it specifically refers to Rifle Ranges. That could be their out.

 

As for Chicago's "tweaks", I agree that as written it would make it VERY unattractive for anyone to invest in a range that would only allow the small percentage of Chicago residents that hold or seek to hold a CFP. It needs to be open to anyone with an FOID, or anyone seeking training from a certified instructor. Last I heard, it's at least half a million per shooting lane after you figure in all the costs.

 

The range in the Fed Reserve building is rifle-rated. I'd like to bring in my AR-15/M4...

I received a reply from the F.B.I. I asked about public access schedule at their downtown Chicago and North Chicago ranges. IANAL and don't know if they are just blowing smoke or are correct in their opinion.

 

Dear Mr. XXXXXXXX:

 

Thank You for your recent e-mail regarding the use of the FBI’s firearms facility in North Chicago, citing Title 10, United States Code, Section 4309. Unfortunately, after doing some research on this statute and giving the matter due consideration, we have concluded we will not be able to accommodate your request.

 

Title 10 of the United States Code deals with matters affecting the United States military. Section 4309 of that title dates back to the early twentieth century (before the FBI was even formed) and was part of a larger scheme to have the United States Army promote rifle training by supporting the Civilian marksmanship Program (CMP) through making military rifle ranges available for their events. The CMP is still around today. We do not believe section 4309 contemplated non-military firearms ranges like our range in North Chicago and believe it applies only to military facilities.

 

Even if we adopted an expansive interpretation of section 4309 to include non-military ranges, our conclusion would be the same. Contrary to your assertion, we do not believe the section mandates use be civilian marksmen. Rather, it states such individuals “may” use affected facilities. While we on rare occasions allow civilians to shoot on the range as part of FBI sponsored and mandated community outreach initiatives, we cannot otherwise allow the use of the range by private citizens at this time due to inherent liability it presents to the United States Government, as well as the FBI resources that would be required to process the requests to shoot, coordinate the completion of the legal documents that would be required, conduct appropriate background check on the shooters, and provide personnel to supervise the use of the range. This is particularly true in a world environment where those resources could be better used elsewhere.

 

Again, we are sorry we cannot accommodate you.

 

Sincerely,

FBI Chicago

Intake Unit

[Davey]

At least it was polite.

[Davey]

A while ago I read the ordinance and it made an exception for people visiting to qualify for the permit.

 

So that begs the question as to what level of proof will one need to present to show you're actively trying to qualify and what kind of liability they will face if they get scammed.

 

I imagine you'd have some paperwork from the Chicago Police stating that you are ready to take the shooting test.

 

Now that I think about it I think the exception was for when you actually go to qualify as opposed to practice and qualify for the permit. I'd have to read it again. But if you can't even use it to practice....Ugh.

[Federal Farmer]

A while ago I read the ordinance and it made an exception for people visiting to qualify for the permit.

 

So that begs the question as to what level of proof will one need to present to show you're actively trying to qualify and what kind of liability they will face if they get scammed.

 

I imagine you'd have some paperwork from the Chicago Police stating that you are ready to take the shooting test.

 

Now that I think about it I think the exception was for when you actually go to qualify as opposed to practice and qualify for the permit. I'd have to read it again. But if you can't even use it to practice....Ugh.

 

You'd have to be there under the training of a qualified instructor who is there providing guns and ammo for your use.

[Davey]

Can the city really regulate whether or not you take a purchased good out of the store or business? Is there a way around this?

 

I'm talking about the part of the ordinance that prohibits buying ammo for use outside the range.

[masconfusion]

Can the city really regulate whether or not you take a purchased good out of the store or business? Is there a way around this?

 

I'm talking about the part of the ordinance that prohibits buying ammo for use outside the range.

 

Can you leave a bar in Chicago with an open drink in your hand? [hmm.. if it involves Alcohol Tobacco or Firearms then it can be prohibited regardless of the constitution?, etc. ]

 

Back on topic, the exception for the permit applicant was a ONE TIME exception qualification with a limit of something like an hour. The third version of the ordinance still had this language in it. A link is somewhere on this site as it was filed with the district court hearing the Ezell case.

[soundguy]

Can the city really regulate whether or not you take a purchased good out of the store or business? Is there a way around this?

 

I'm talking about the part of the ordinance that prohibits buying ammo for use outside the range.

 

Can you leave a bar in Chicago with an open drink in your hand? [hmm.. if it involves Alcohol Tobacco or Firearms then it can be prohibited regardless of the constitution?, etc. ]

 

Back on topic, the exception for the permit applicant was a ONE TIME exception qualification with a limit of something like an hour. The third version of the ordinance still had this language in it. A link is somewhere on this site as it was filed with the district court hearing the Ezell case.

 

You CAN leave a Chicago tavern with package liquor if the tavern has the proper license. The license is granted thru the city. Open liquor... Not at all. They could do the same for ammo if they wanted... And are probably OK to prohibit "package ammo to go".

 

Does the ordinance say anything about BYO ammo? I'm too lazy to look right now. If you can BYO ammo... Must you use it all at these ranges of the future or can you take some home for another day?

[Davey]

Shooters bringing their own ammo would make opening a range in Chicago even less of a fruitful venture.

 

I've never read anything in the ordinance that prohibited bringing your own ammo. It was a while ago though, I may have missed it/forgot it.