Gun safe help

[gLockedandLoaded]

Well it's time to get a real gun safe soon.

 

I want something in the 18-24 gun range (I only have 4 long guns at this time, and 7-8 pistols). My problem is, my house is small and I really do not have a lot of space.

 

Is there anything wrong with putting it in the garage, if I get one of those golden rod dehumidifier things?

[TRJ]

Well it's time to get a real gun safe soon.

 

I want something in the 18-24 gun range (I only have 4 long guns at this time, and 7-8 pistols). My problem is, my house is small and I really do not have a lot of space.

 

Is there anything wrong with putting it in the garage, if I get one of those golden rod dehumidifier things?

Aside from the exposure to salt, temperature swings, and the curious glances from every nosy neighbor that checks out your stuff when the door is up?

 

This guy was half off on black friday..http://www.menards.com/main/home-decor/furniture/safes/long-gun-safes/sentinel-trade-14-gun-fire-resistant-safe-with-electronic-lock-7-6-cu-ft/p-1444444060891-c-19101.htm?tid=-2014810285342343815

 

It's about 300 pounds so two guys can carry it into the house where you bolt it to the wall. I'd bolt into a closet in so its away from eyes if you have guests or trades in your house. Then move the crap that used to be in the closet into a few Tupperware bins in the garage.

[capnbill]

You might want to be careful with those cheaper electronic locks...

How Secure Is Your Safe? Here’s How Most Common Ones Can Be Cracked With a Magnet

 

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/02/11/how-secure-is-your-safe-heres-how-most-common-ones-can-be-cracked-with-a-magnet-and-a-sock/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=story&utm_campaign=ShareButtons

 

 

I've used one of the Zanotti Armor safes for about 20 years, easily moving them from house to house. They can be assembled into a small interior closet, making it even more difficult to be removed by thieves.

 

http://www.zanottiarmor.com/index.html

 

[gLockedandLoaded]

You might want to be careful with those cheaper electronic locks...

How Secure Is Your Safe? Here’s How Most Common Ones Can Be Cracked With a Magnet

 

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/02/11/how-secure-is-your-safe-heres-how-most-common-ones-can-be-cracked-with-a-magnet-and-a-sock/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=story&utm_campaign=ShareButtons

 

 

I've used one of the Zanotti Armor safes for about 20 years, easily moving them from house to house. They can be assembled into a small interior closet, making it even more difficult to be removed by thieves.

 

http://www.zanottiarmor.com/index.html

 

That looks perfect...and I like the layout options.

[capnbill]

Give Merle Pauley a call, 815-874-1937; he's a local distributor out of Rockford. He used to go to the Kane and DuPage gun shows until he recently suffered a hernia, probably all of those years of loading and unloading those safes. I recently ordered a ZA II; the price was around $1,700, not sure if that is in the range you were looking to spend.

[Xwing]

IMO, a garage is not ideal for a safe, due to the temperature changes (not climate controlled) and much easier access for a criminal. If you have a basement, that may be a better option. Otherwise, I was able to fit a 48-gun safe in a fairly small closet (but it does take up the entire closet.) I am a big fan of http://www.libertysafe.com/

[latetotheparty]

Too bad, I just sold my 24 gun safe.

[gLockedandLoaded]

IMO, a garage is not ideal for a safe, due to the temperature changes (not climate controlled) and much easier access for a criminal. If you have a basement, that may be a better option. Otherwise, I was able to fit a 48-gun safe in a fairly small closet (but it does take up the entire closet.) I am a big fan of http://www.libertysafe.com/

 

 

Yeah but how the heck do you get a heavy safe down narrow stairs into a basement?

 

I'm wondering if I should just upgrade my stack on and get the bigger security cabinet. Honestly my main concern is preventing access for children. I just need to upgrade capacity.

[trob09]

Rule 1 of gun safes - pick out one bigger than you think you will need. Then go up a size. Consider going up one more size. ask me how I know this.

 

Rule 2 of gun safes - understand the difference between a serious theft-deterrent which will thwart a determined professional criminal vs. a security cabinet which will slow-down a teenager with a screwdriver for about 30 seconds. Not everyone needs a full-blown safe and some people think they are buying a 'safe' but really getting a locking cabinet. decide what you need and shop accordingly.

[gLockedandLoaded]

Rule 1 of gun safes - pick out one bigger than you think you will need. Then go up a size. Consider going up one more size. ask me how I know this.

 

Rule 2 of gun safes - understand the difference between a serious theft-deterrent which will thwart a determined professional criminal vs. a security cabinet which will slow-down a teenager with a screwdriver for about 30 seconds. Not everyone needs a full-blown safe and some people think they are buying a 'safe' but really getting a locking cabinet. decide what you need and shop accordingly.

Ok but there are also space limits. If I had an infinite amount of space and potential locations for a safe in my house that would be one thing.

[trob09]

 

Rule 1 of gun safes - pick out one bigger than you think you will need. Then go up a size. Consider going up one more size. ask me how I know this.

 

Rule 2 of gun safes - understand the difference between a serious theft-deterrent which will thwart a determined professional criminal vs. a security cabinet which will slow-down a teenager with a screwdriver for about 30 seconds. Not everyone needs a full-blown safe and some people think they are buying a 'safe' but really getting a locking cabinet. decide what you need and shop accordingly.

Ok but there are also space limits. If I had an infinite amount of space and potential locations for a safe in my house that would be one thing.

 

Oh I understand, I went through the very same thought processes and space concerns. I still have space concerns, but I'm now on my 4th safe. I wish I had a bigger one. I guess my message is get the biggest one you possibly can. you will fill it.

[Cerus]

I really despise these "how to break into this or that" videos. They might be exposing the limited security but there also putting out a burglar how to. Not many would have thought a magnet would work...now they know.

 

No safe is theft proof from a determined burglar. A pry bar will open any of em easily enough. They work great for keeping kids out but thanks to those sorts of videos on YT which kids watch, they're now less secure.

[trob09]

as for the garage location, I will echo what others have - it's not ideal, but sometimes you have to make choices.

If you do choose the garage, it is even more important to know the difference between a safe and a security cabinet as the Garage will be an easier break-in-point. There are plenty of videos on youtube showing how easy it is for certain models to be pried open - some of them are defeated in minutes. Be sure to bolt it down, the easiest way to defeat most safes is to knock them onto their back and start prying away at the door.

Also, regarding dehumidification - goldenrod or similar devices aren't really dehumidifiers, they are heaters. They work by making the inside of the safe slightly warmer than the outside area and thereby preventing condensation. They work very well in a stable environment, but not as well in a garage where there can be significant temperature swings. combining it with a true dehumidification item like a silica gel pack would be a good idea.

[gLockedandLoaded]

as for the garage location, I will echo what others have - it's not ideal, but sometimes you have to make choices.

If you do choose the garage, it is even more important to know the difference between a safe and a security cabinet as the Garage will be an easier break-in-point. There are plenty of videos on youtube showing how easy it is for certain models to be pried open - some of them are defeated in minutes. Be sure to bolt it down, the easiest way to defeat most safes is to knock them onto their back and start prying away at the door.

Also, regarding dehumidification - goldenrod or similar devices aren't really dehumidifiers, they are heaters. They work by making the inside of the safe slightly warmer than the outside area and thereby preventing condensation. They work very well in a stable environment, but not as well in a garage where there can be significant temperature swings. combining it with a true dehumidification item like a silica gel pack would be a good idea.

The advantage of the security cabinet is that I can move it easily, of course it also has cost advantages.

 

Do security cabinets have adequate protection from moisture if I use a golden rod (thinking basement not garage)?

[trob09]

 

The advantage of the security cabinet is that I can move it easily, of course it also has cost advantages.

 

Do security cabinets have adequate protection from moisture if I use a golden rod (thinking basement not garage)?

 

My experience is that everything in life has advantages and drawbacks, the real challenge is understanding the trade-offs fully in order to make an informed decision. I had stack-on security cabinets for years and I do not regret getting them. I 'upgraded' when my collection - and the value of the collection - needed more spacious and secure storage. In a basement, behind a locked door, they are usually more than adequate for keeping your kids/their friends from doing something stupid.

 

I have also used a goldenrod in a security cabinet for years with no problems, but it does depend on your conditions - how 'wet' is your basement, how well sealed is the security cabinet, how stable is the temperature in your basement. Most cabinets (and most safes) aren't designed to be air tight, but allow a flow of air in and out. a goldenrod is usually enough for basement applications though.

[InterestedBystander]

snap safe has been discussed before as an easier moved option. Have been interested in them but no direct knowledge.

 

http://www.snapsafe.com

[zzhawk]

Interesting article that was posted yesterday regarding a cracked safe: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/02/17/gun-safes-just-how-strong-is-yours/

[dragos111]

 

IMO, a garage is not ideal for a safe, due to the temperature changes (not climate controlled) and much easier access for a criminal. If you have a basement, that may be a better option. Otherwise, I was able to fit a 48-gun safe in a fairly small closet (but it does take up the entire closet.) I am a big fan of http://www.libertysafe.com/

 

 

Yeah but how the heck do you get a heavy safe down narrow stairs into a basement?

 

I'm wondering if I should just upgrade my stack on and get the bigger security cabinet. Honestly my main concern is preventing access for children. I just need to upgrade capacity.

 

 

If you are getting a good safe, it is going to be very heavy. You can pay for delivery and those guys can move it. They actually have a crawler that runs on tracks like a tank that will carry it down the stairs. Hardest part can be doorways. If they are too narrow you might have to remove molding to get through them. Delivery on a $3500 Liberty safe can run about $500, depending on how far they have to transport it.

[mikew]

 

I've used one of the Zanotti Armor safes for about 20 years, easily moving them from house to house. They can be assembled into a small interior closet, making it even more difficult to be removed by thieves.

 

http://www.zanottiarmor.com/index.html

 

 

++ on the zanotti.

 

And too bad Merle. I bought mine from him. And he sure made it look easy when he packed up a safe and put it back in his truck..

[Xwing]

Yeah but how the heck do you get a heavy safe down narrow stairs into a basement?

 

I'm wondering if I should just upgrade my stack on and get the bigger security cabinet. Honestly my main concern is preventing access for children. I just need to upgrade capacity.

 

 

With great difficulty... But it usually can be done. dragos111 is right on with the doorway molding removal and the specialty tools. It can often be done without the specialty tools as well, by setting up a pulley or similar system. There are several options, but they all have some drawbacks.

 

Regarding security cabinet vs. safe (really "Residential Security Container"): It just depends on your goals. A stout locked drawer may be enough for children or a theft of opportunity, but won't stop anyone who works at it. But in reality, even the best quality consumer-marketed "safe" won't stop a skilled or very determined thief.

 

The name of the game on residential security is "make the criminal go rob your neighbor instead because it's easier". Nothing reasonable will really stop a determined & competent criminal.

[gLockedandLoaded]

 

 

IMO, a garage is not ideal for a safe, due to the temperature changes (not climate controlled) and much easier access for a criminal. If you have a basement, that may be a better option. Otherwise, I was able to fit a 48-gun safe in a fairly small closet (but it does take up the entire closet.) I am a big fan of http://www.libertysafe.com/

 

 

Yeah but how the heck do you get a heavy safe down narrow stairs into a basement?

 

I'm wondering if I should just upgrade my stack on and get the bigger security cabinet. Honestly my main concern is preventing access for children. I just need to upgrade capacity.

If you are getting a good safe, it is going to be very heavy. You can pay for delivery and those guys can move it. They actually have a crawler that runs on tracks like a tank that will carry it down the stairs. Hardest part can be doorways. If they are too narrow you might have to remove molding to get through them. Delivery on a $3500 Liberty safe can run about $500, depending on how far they have to transport it.

I can't see dropping more than $1000 on the safe itself, especially since we won't be in this house forever (but probably for a few years) that said I think the basement may be the best option based on my house's layout.

 

We are planning on having the basement finished in the fall. I may get a gun safe then.

[mikew]

combining it with a true dehumidification item like a silica gel pack would be a good idea.

 

When I was a teenager in the motorcycle warehouse, Kawasaki models that came from Japan were packed with 5kg bags of silica gel.

I thought it was a great idea to keep the humidity down in the VW bug. to have 10 or more bags of the stuff behind the back seat.

 

Then I went to college and learned in chemistry class just how desiccants work, how they release a specific amount of heat energy for each water molecule absorbed. I thought back to the VW, it had enough silica gel to have been a hazard in the wrong conditions, had it been "fresh" (dry) enough. Oh, and dessicants don't dry out on their own, they have to have the same specific amount of heat added to release each water molecule. This usually involves a trip through an oven at a minimum temperature for a min amount of time/kg.

 

One desiccant we used in lab experiments was copper sulfate. When it is saturated, it is blue. when dry it is grey.

it forms around the top of your car battery where the cables get a little acid on them.

It's also sold as a root killer.

 

Don't get me wrong, one bag of silica gel is a great thing. Just don't intentionally get 100 lbs of it wet without extreme caution. :-)

[apmonte]

To echo what others have said, gun safes are RSCs, not real safes. Mild steel is easily cut with power tools. Thicker steel just buys you time against attacks. Most of us just need to keep kids out, or discourage smash & grab burglar types. Professional thieves won't have significant issues with most of the gun safes people have, but I also don't expect them to be targeting residential neighborhoods in my area.

 

I've had a Sturdy safe in my garage now for two years sitting on a 1/2" horse stall mat and bolted to the floor. I've got a golden rod in the bottom and a rechargeable desiccant on a shelf. I originally planned to put this in the basement, but the logistics of getting my 1200# safe down there became a blocking issue. I couldn't find a local source to move it and wasn't willing to risk myself/friends if things went south. It actually worked out ok, since I now clean all of my guns in the garage to keep the smell out of the house. I've got an old twin bed cover over the safe to protect from prying eyes and provide some protection from elements. I'm probably only in it every couple of weeks, so it doesn't get a lot of exposure to temp/humidity changes. I read up on this on several other boards before I committed to garage installation. The only people that had a concern with it were people that had no direct experience with a safe in the garage.

[trob09]

 

combining it with a true dehumidification item like a silica gel pack would be a good idea.

 

When I was a teenager in the motorcycle warehouse, Kawasaki models that came from Japan were packed with 5kg bags of silica gel.

I thought it was a great idea to keep the humidity down in the VW bug. to have 10 or more bags of the stuff behind the back seat.

 

Then I went to college and learned in chemistry class just how desiccants work, how they release a specific amount of heat energy for each water molecule absorbed. I thought back to the VW, it had enough silica gel to have been a hazard in the wrong conditions, had it been "fresh" (dry) enough. Oh, and dessicants don't dry out on their own, they have to have the same specific amount of heat added to release each water molecule. This usually involves a trip through an oven at a minimum temperature for a min amount of time/kg.

 

One desiccant we used in lab experiments was copper sulfate. When it is saturated, it is blue. when dry it is grey.

it forms around the top of your car battery where the cables get a little acid on them.

It's also sold as a root killer.

 

Don't get me wrong, one bag of silica gel is a great thing. Just don't intentionally get 100 lbs of it wet without extreme caution. :-)

 

All good points. As mentioned in one of the above posts - everything in life has trade-offs. If one's safe is in a high-moisture environment with temperature swings, a reasonable amount of desiccant can be helpful.

 

btw, as a former beetle owner myself, 50kg of silica gel in that little storage area?!?!

[mikew]

 

 

 

 

btw, as a former beetle owner myself, 50kg of silica gel in that little storage area?!?!

 

 

 

 

Well,it was a long time ago.

I remember it to be around 10 bags

[trob09]

If one is really serious, getting a TL-15/TL-30/TL-30+ rated safe is the key

 

at 3500 lbs, my TL-30 rated safe weighs as much as my car. It lives in my garage as no one - even the outfits who claim to move heavy and difficult equipment - would accept the job to move it into my basement.

[Double-J]

Seems that "Taking up Space" is the important factor here in the home. Ever consider an Under Bed Safe? Out of sight, can bolt to the floor and has decent although not great storage capacity. Stack them in the bottom of your wifes closet, long guns in one and handguns in the other and call it a shoe rack...She'll love it!

 

Here's one link I found just with a simple search: http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Vault-Under-Safe-T1261/dp/B00CF2V6SG/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1455842585&sr=8-4&keywords=gun+safe+under+bed

 

 

Edited for California Red Wine inconsistencies...

[patriot1776]

Mine was put in the basement by pros with a battery / hydraulic machine and it just fit , then they put 4 hardened bolts into the concrete , adjusted and leveled the door . It sits on 4 hockey pucks off the floor at each corner , cost a couple hundred for delivery and this install, but well worth it imho and a nice feature when i sell the house .

[tslewisz]

Mine is in my garage. It's heated by a ventless wall unit, which is probably the worst thing possible since no humidity is exhausted. However, with a Goldenrod in it, I don't have any problems.

[Prairie Pucker]

Where ever you put it, I'd suggest making a stand for it out of treated 2 X 6's (or 2 X 8's or 10's) on edge to get it up off the floor. At minimum it improves access to most of the insides, especially for whatever sits on the inside floor. Also, large metal items stored in unheated areas can sweat like crazy during a temp change from cool to warm and humid, to the point of water running down the sides. And the floor can also sweat. The wood provides a thermal break between the safe and the floor. If you want, you can use spade bits or hole saws to punch holes in the sides of the stand for ventilation and to avoid dead air space underneath.

 

Getting a safe up onto the stand isn't hard. Rock the safe one way and slide a fulcrum underneath, like a piece of pipe. Then rock it over the pipe to create a larger gap between the floor and the safe and slip in a larger pipe. Back and forth putting board shims and blocking under the pipes as you continue rocking back and forth to get it higher. This way you never need to lift the full weight of the safe. When it's high enough, put another piece of pipe on top of the stand and roll the safe off of the fulcrum onto the stand, using the pipe on the stand as a roller to help move the safe into place. Finally use a pry bar between the safe and stand to shift the weight so the roller can be removed and to wiggle the safe into final position.

 

I put a stand under my first safe, and then put an even taller one under my second.