Signs at post offices

[bobapunk]

Ok, so the other thread was locked for some reason...?

 

Anyway, here is how the PO 1 block form my office is posted.

 

Can I legally carry here, or store in my car in their parking lot?

 

This is in the service area. Service counter directly behind me, PO boxes to my right, entry/exit doors to the left. This sign has been here for years:

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/bobapunk/NRA%20Instructors/IMG_20140417_143211_zpsvtruchku.jpg

 

This is between the double entry/exit doors. This was put up just a few months ago:

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/bobapunk/NRA%20Instructors/IMG_20140417_144351_zpsmjgbpmfd.jpg

 

And this is on the exterior entry/exit doors. Not sure when it was put up, but I first noticed it yesterday:

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/bobapunk/NRA%20Instructors/IMG_20140417_144355_zpsdicnmdxr.jpg

[rfwins]

Post office is off limits.

No if's and's or bouts!

[Raptor12]

no carry inside, if its a main post office on postal property (federal) no carry on/in parking lot or in car. If its a postal station located in a strip mall (leased space), no carry inside, carry outside and in parking lot, and in car is ok.

[DoverGunner]

There does not even need to be a Test Case over this . Its Federally Protected Property . Don't Do it

[bobapunk]

no carry inside, if its a main post office on postal property (federal) no carry on/in parking lot or in car. If its a postal station located in a strip mall (leased space), no carry inside, carry outside and in parking lot, and in car is ok.

 

Ok, This post off is stand alone, not connected to any other businesses and it has its own parking lot. However, is speaking with the employees there, I was told that the USPS leases the property.

 

My understanding is that the USPS prohibition extends to all real property under the control of the Post Office. IMO, that includes the parking lot. Whether or not the 430 ILCS 66/65 sign includes the parking lot is a different question; but, I do not think that maters in this situation since it is my understanding that the USPS sign covers the customer parking lot.

[Raptor12]

I go with the no carry in or out, in this instance.

[TomKoz]

BUT you can ship a firearm with ammunition through the Post Office????

Guess the recipient can't/shouldn't open the package while at the Post Office.

[Bud]

you can ship a long gun through th PO. on ly an FFL can ship a handgun through the USPS

 

I am absolutely amazed how often this exact same topic comes up

[bob]

It is unclear to me if the prohibition in the FCCA banned location #22 is triggered because it is unclear whether the PO ban is a law or a regulation. If it is a regulation ban #22 is not triggered, because it only covers places banned by federal law, not banned by federal regulation.

 

However, it is still banned regardless of whether it is banned under state law because the feds can ban such things as a federal ban, and have.

 

I have seen some pretty good arguments in all kinds of directions on this one, and the only thing I can say is that I do not want to be the test case.

[TomKoz]

My point is firearms are not allowed in the PO, but yet firearms are allowed in the PO.

[foxriver6]

you can ship a long gun through th PO. on ly an FFL can ship a handgun through the USPS

 

I am absolutely amazed how often this exact same topic comes up

This!

[Indigo]

My point is firearms are not allowed in the PO, but yet firearms are allowed in the PO.

 

 

Firearms shipped through the USPS are under THEIR control, not ours.

[xd9subcompact]

When you take a gun into the Post Office for the purposes of shipping it, that is called "official business" If you are just carrying it, that isn't your reason for being there.

 

Analysis of the photographs in Post #1:

 

As I look at the signage in the first post, it appears that as someone enters the outer door, the only notice conspicuously posted is the compliant IL sign. I can't be sure but it looks like it might not have the required words in the lower right area.

Once inside, it appears this is an outer lobby area where perhaps the PO boxes are located, and the service counter area is beyond another set of doors that can be locked during after hours, leaving access to the PO boxes.

This appears to be a sign that complies with the USPS regulations in that is is conspicuously posted inside the building at the inside entry door.

The sign in the glass case inside the service counter area is also a USPS compliant sign, although with the sign now posted on the inside entry door this additional sign inside the glass case is not not really needed anymore since the inside door to the service counter area now has a sign.

 

A reasonable person would conclude that as you enter the outer door, the official notice being given is- that ignoring the sign on the outer door means a violation of state law. Otherwise, the USPS sign would be conspicuously posted on the outside door, and no other signs would be needed anywhere else inside the building.

A reasonable person would also conclude that proceeding beyond the inside doors with the conspicuously posted USPS compliant sign would be subjecting themselves to a violation of the USPS regulations, unless they were shipping a firearm (official purposes).

 

Finally, a reasonable person would conclude that because the USPS felt the need to post a State of IL sign on the entry door, and the parking lot is not posted (at least from these photos it doesn't seem to be posted), the IL parking lot safe haven rule applies.

 

Now how long will it be before this gets locked?

[Glock23]

you can ship a long gun through th PO. on ly an FFL can ship a handgun through the USPS

 

I am absolutely amazed how often this exact same topic comes up

What amazes me is the fact that bobapunk's post contains a picture of the statutorily compliant sign AND the question, "Can I legally carry here?"

 

[spec5]

A ISP do not carry sign has nothing to do with USPS or Federal signage. I think by offering opinions all over again is not in the best interest of CCL holders. You are leading people down the wrong path if you think Safe Harbor or the ISP Do Not Carry sign has anything to do with the USPS firearm policy.

[RockerXX]

What amazes me is the fact that bobapunk's post contains a picture of the statutorily compliant sign AND the question, "Can I legally carry here?"

 

 

 

Yeah, that has me scratching my head as well, there appears to be a fully compliant IL sign at the entrance as mandated under the law, so why is there even a question?

[spec5]

39 CFR 232.1 - CONDUCT ON POSTAL PROPERTY

 

39 cfr 232.1(l)

 

l) Weapons and explosives. Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

[GT1]

Only the thick-headed think there is a might, maybe or I don't know when it comes to federal gun free zones.

[My 2 cents]

I would say you're lucky for not getting arrested for taking pictures inside a federal building let alone bring a gun into one.

 

It sounds like only recently (2010) that people have been allowed to take exterior pictures of a federal building without getting arrested.

 

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/rightsandfreedoms/a/Is-It-Legal-to-Photograph-Federal-Buildings.htm

[TyGuy]

They hate us for our freedom? Can't even take a photo.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[xd9subcompact]

I guess the federal judge in the Bonidy case didn't agree with that for the parking lot. He did agree as to the inside of the building. None of the arguments in the case had to do with the inadequacies of proper notice. The Avon lot did have a sign that identified the lot as belonging to the USPS. There was no security personnel or other security measures in existence at this facility. Notice also that the argument is limited to the USPS regulations, and there is no assertion by the USPS that the US Criminal code for weapons applies in the parking lot. The opinion also sheds more light on the Dorosan case, where the employee parked his car in the enclosed area where the trucks are loaded (page 6)

Keep in mind that the basis for this case was Bonidy asking if he would be prosecuted if he carried it into the building or had it in the car in the lot. The USPS attorney answered that he would be. This is the basis for his lawsuit.

 

I would suggest reading this: http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Bonidy_Memorandum-Opinion-and-Order.pdf

 

It is well written and has a sound basis. This USPS is appealing this. So is Bonidy. All of the briefs have been filed, and now we are waiting for the outcome.

[mauserme]

Just to reiterate what I mentioned in the locked thread - Bonidy is binding only on the Colorado District. I agree, though, that it's an interesting read.

[bobapunk]

BUT you can ship a firearm with ammunition through the Post Office????

Guess the recipient can't/shouldn't open the package while at the Post Office.

 

Ammunition can not be shipped via USPS

[bobapunk]

 

you can ship a long gun through th PO. on ly an FFL can ship a handgun through the USPS

 

I am absolutely amazed how often this exact same topic comes up

What amazes me is the fact that bobapunk's post contains a picture of the statutorily compliant sign AND the question, "Can I legally carry here?"

 

 

 

Rhetorical question. IMO Carry is not allowed in the building or in the parking lot. IMO, storing in your car, parked in the parking lot is a violation of USPS code.

[xd9subcompact]

So the judge in the Bonidy case talked about how the parking lot, when viewed in the aerial photos, looked like the other lots around there. This got me interested in seeing this for myself.

I used Bing for the search.

 

Here is what I found:

http://binged.it/1hUCyze

I hope this link works as a aerial image and not just a street map.

I see on the left side of the page that there are more than one business at this address.

Here is an article that has a picture of the building taken at ground level.

http://www.guns.com/2013/07/11/denver-federal-court-rules-firearms-legal-in-usps-parking-lots/

I can see how it can be difficult to tell if a parking lot is part of a post office when there isn't a clear indication of it being provided.

[bobapunk]

When you take a gun into the Post Office for the purposes of shipping it, that is called "official business" If you are just carrying it, that isn't your reason for being there.

 

Analysis of the photographs in Post #1:

 

As I look at the signage in the first post, it appears that as someone enters the outer door, the only notice conspicuously posted is the compliant IL sign. I can't be sure but it looks like it might not have the required words in the lower right area.

Once inside, it appears this is an outer lobby area where perhaps the PO boxes are located, and the service counter area is beyond another set of doors that can be locked during after hours, leaving access to the PO boxes.

This appears to be a sign that complies with the USPS regulations in that is is conspicuously posted inside the building at the inside entry door.

The sign in the glass case inside the service counter area is also a USPS compliant sign, although with the sign now posted on the inside entry door this additional sign inside the glass case is not not really needed anymore since the inside door to the service counter area now has a sign.

 

A reasonable person would conclude that as you enter the outer door, the official notice being given is- that ignoring the sign on the outer door means a violation of state law. Otherwise, the USPS sign would be conspicuously posted on the outside door, and no other signs would be needed anywhere else inside the building.

A reasonable person would also conclude that proceeding beyond the inside doors with the conspicuously posted USPS compliant sign would be subjecting themselves to a violation of the USPS regulations, unless they were shipping a firearm (official purposes).

 

Finally, a reasonable person would conclude that because the USPS felt the need to post a State of IL sign on the entry door, and the parking lot is not posted (at least from these photos it doesn't seem to be posted), the IL parking lot safe haven rule applies.

 

Now how long will it be before this gets locked?

 

OK, let me break this down a little more

 

This is a small PO in a small town. They are in a stand alone building and have their own off street parking lot. You enter through one door (the one with the ISP sign on it. In this vestibule, there is a community bulletin board, nothing else. Then you go through the second door (the one in the second pic in the OP). Once you pass through that door, you are in the only customer accessible area of the PO. The PO boxes and service counter are both accessible from here. As stated in the OP: if you look at the first picture, service counter is at 6:00, PO Boxes are at 3:00, the entry exit is at 9:00 (roughly).

 

xd9subcomp, Can you please post the section of the USPS code that states that the USPS sign has to be posted at the entrance/on the door?

 

For years, the USPS sign, posted inside of the Post Office, was all the notice that was given that firearms were prohibited on USPS controlled property. Why now, do you think that the sign needs to be on the door?

[xd9subcompact]

Here is an article that advances the idea that the "federal facility" is not a post office. This would explain why in the Dorosan case, (the guy who parked his car inside the fenced area where the trucks are staged) was only convicted of the USPS regulation, not the US Code.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/concealed-carry-post-office-may-lead-rude-awakening

 

You don't have to agree with the author's conclusions about CCW in a post office, but I think he is correct that the only issue is the USPS regulation, not the US Code, thereby the post office is not a federal facility.

[bobapunk]

Here is an article that advances the idea that the "federal facility" is not a post office. This would explain why in the Dorosan case, (the guy who parked his car inside the fenced area where the trucks are staged) was only convicted of the USPS regulation, not the US Code.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/concealed-carry-post-office-may-lead-rude-awakening

 

You don't have to agree with the author's conclusions about CCW in a post office, but I think he is correct that the only issue is the USPS regulation, not the US Code, thereby the post office is not a federal facility.

 

And what does that distinction get us? The USPS still has the authority to regulate its real property...

[xd9subcompact]

xd9subcomp, Can you please post the section of the USPS code that states that the USPS sign has to be posted at the entrance/on the door?

 

For years, the USPS sign, posted inside of the Post Office, was all the notice that was given that firearms were prohibited on USPS controlled property. Why now, do you think that the sign needs to be on the door?

 

Because the regulation states the sign must be conspicuous according to 39 CFR 232.1 (a) which is defining the applicability of Section 232. We know there are many scenarios where the post office and some other entity are sharing real estate, the USPS may or may not have exclusive control over all of that property. And that is why the post office is moving the signs to a more conspicuous location. Your photos demonstrate that. How else is someone supposed to reasonably determine what areas are USPS controlled until they have already entered the property? ESP?

[bobapunk]

So, are they moving signs in all states? My understanding was that the new signs/locations in Illinois are in conjunction with the new carry law.