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How have CCL violations of gun free zones been adjudicated in Illinois?


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#1 CHICAGO HANDGUN OWNER

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 07:29 AM

I heard of one case, I think in Southern Illinois, where a man was at the shooting range and his car broke down so he took all his guns on a train to get home and got busted for carrying on public transportation. What was the outcome of the case? I know there was another case where a judge dropped his gun in the court house and he got off scott free and later the law was changed to allow judges to carry in a court house.  Its now legal for judges to CC in court! Are there any other cases of interest like this? Recently a woman was raped in a Cook County Forest Preserve. Secluded areas like this are predator zones. I was taught in my original CCL class that the trails through the forest are legal to carry just like trails through the parks and beaches in Chicago are legal to carry but some seem to interpret the law differently. 



#2 Mr. Fife

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 07:35 AM

You should ask your instructor for a refund if he told you it's ok to carry in Cook County forest preserves.
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#3 InterestedBystander

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 07:40 AM

The train case was Metra near Chicago.

http://illinoiscarry...showtopic=70196

Source for law changed to allow Judge carry?
Tabled in 2018
A different version back to rules in March 2019

http://www.ilga.gov/...onID=108&GA=101

Edited by InterestedBystander, 14 June 2019 - 07:58 AM.

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#4 Mick G

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 08:00 AM

I heard of one case, I think in Southern Illinois, where a man was at the shooting range and his car broke down so he took all his guns on a train to get home and got busted for carrying on public transportation. What was the outcome of the case? I know there was another case where a judge dropped his gun in the court house and he got off scott free and later the law was changed to allow judges to carry in a court house.  Its now legal for judges to CC in court! Are there any other cases of interest like this? Recently a woman was raped in a Cook County Forest Preserve. Secluded areas like this are predator zones. I was taught in my original CCL class that the trails through the forest are legal to carry just like trails through the parks and beaches in Chicago are legal to carry but some seem to interpret the law differently. 

 

Judges have been carrying since courts were in their infancy. They needed to and still do.

Nowadays the bigger question is that judge wearing any clothes under that robe?

 

http://www.ilga.gov/...97&ChapterID=39

Scroll down to (430 ILCS 66/65)

 

Mr. Fife is correct, I would ask for a refund.

Your instructor taught you things that could get you arrested.

This one is pretty good but the first link is the law as written: www.handgunlaw.us/states/illinois.pdf



#5 CHICAGO HANDGUN OWNER

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 10:39 AM

You should ask your instructor for a refund if he told you it's ok to carry in Cook County forest preserves.

I disagree with you. The Cook County Forest is off limits but not the TRAILS that go through it to a public way



#6 Mick G

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 11:12 AM

There is this caveat under ILCS 65, but I didn't think this applies to Cook County Forest Preserve itself:

 


 

 (430 ILCS 66/65)
    Sec. 65. Prohibited areas.

(14) Any real property under the control of the Cook County Forest Preserve District.
 

No mention of trails so stow it when you are in a Cook County Forest Preserve.

Dart will make sure you are punished to the fullest extent possible.

 

 

© A licensee shall not be in violation of this Section while he or she is traveling along a public right of way that touches or crosses any of the premises under subsection (a), (a-5), or (a-10) of this Section if the concealed firearm is carried on his or her person in accordance with the provisions of this Act or is being transported in a vehicle by the licensee in accordance with all other applicable provisions of law.

 

 

 

There is this caveat under ILCS 65, but I didn't think this applies to Cook County Forest Preserve itself:

 


 

 (430 ILCS 66/65)
    Sec. 65. Prohibited areas.

(14) Any real property under the control of the Cook County Forest Preserve District.
 

No mention of trails so stow it when you are in a Cook County Forest Preserve.

Dart will make sure you are punished to the fullest extent possible.

 

 

© A licensee shall not be in violation of this Section while he or she is traveling along a public right of way that touches or crosses any of the premises under subsection (a), (a-5), or (a-10) of this Section if the concealed firearm is carried on his or her person in accordance with the provisions of this Act or is being transported in a vehicle by the licensee in accordance with all other applicable provisions of law.

 

I wrote stow it which I believe is correct. I don't think they would charge you for having a handgun in your car.

Any real property under the control of the Cook County Forest Preserve District would include the trails.

The exception would be if you were say crossing La Grange Road while on a trail (public property) or riding around the outside of the Forest Preserve BUT still technically on their property.

 

My class was taught by cops who were not big fans of Dart. I live about five miles from a Cook County Forest Preserve and since the closest one to me in Dupage does not allow dogs, I have always went to Bemis Woods. I know those trails like the back of my hand, marked and unmarked. I specifically asked about this during class and had two cops say DO NOT walk the trails when carrying.

 

I'm inclined to believe them. Have you ever ran into a uppity Cook County Forest Preserve cop? Some of them act like they are they are the ATF and FBI wrapped up in one. I believe this is a complex because most people don't treat them as real cops. I saw one flying up the 294 at 100 mph+ and the ISP pulled them over. Why is a Forest Preserve cruiser going 100 mph+ on a tollway?

 

They don't get any respect from real cops and that translates into not respecting the public.

I'm not going to give Dart any excuse into making me a criminal which is what was taught in my class.

 

I'm definitely not going to bring up traveling, that never works out well.

 

 

You may disagree but you are dead wrong. The TRAILS are property of The Cook County Forest Preserve, they maintain them and as such are under their control. I had two cops tell me this and Craigcelia is also an instructor. Do as you wish but be prepared to be arrested if you get caught. Dart will make sure you lose your CCL and FOID.

Ignorance of the law is not a viable defense.


Edited by Mick G, 14 June 2019 - 11:13 AM.


#7 bmyers

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 11:37 AM

Is an ignorant law a viable defense?   :clap:


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#8 Mick G

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 11:56 AM

Is an ignorant law a viable defense?   :clap:

 

I wish it was but Dart is something special. Only Cook County Forest Preserves are covered under this ignorant law. There are 101 other counties in IL where it's legal to carry in Forest Preserves. Cook County is the only ONE where you cant.

 

CHICAGO HANDGUN OWNER brings this up once a year but doesn't like the answer he gets so he waits a year and tries again. Nothings changed.

 

http://fpdcc.com/pre...nd-regulations/

 

https://www.gunright...gun-free-zones/


Edited by Mick G, 14 June 2019 - 11:57 AM.


#9 CHICAGO HANDGUN OWNER

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 02:02 PM

A trail IS A PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY so you can interpret the law any way you wish. I will continue to carry on the trails of the Chicago beaches and the Cook County Forest Preserves



#10 CHICAGO HANDGUN OWNER

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 02:08 PM

Also just because a cop told you what he thinks the law is doesn't make it so. I can argue my point in court should it ever come to that. Like I said a trail is a public right of way. It is mentioned in regards to the Chicago Bike Trails and it applies to the Cook County Forest also. 


Edited by CHICAGO HANDGUN OWNER, 14 June 2019 - 02:09 PM.


#11 CHICAGO HANDGUN OWNER

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 02:12 PM

In addition, Mick, I do not believe I would lose my CCL or my FOID for one mistake if it was proven to be a violation. Ambiguous laws can not be enforced in court anyways. 



#12 gstrom99

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 02:51 PM

I'm with Mick and the others on this one.  ANYWHERE (outside your car) in the Cook County Forest Preserves is prohibited.  But you can do as you wish anyway, since you don't like our answers...


Edited by gstrom99, 14 June 2019 - 02:52 PM.

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#13 Euler

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 03:18 PM

The exception for trails on public parks is in 430 ILCS 66/65(a)(13), which discusses parks. Note that trails are only excepted if only part of the trail goes through the park. If the entirety of the trail is within the park, carry is still prohibited.

The prohibition of carry in Cook County Forest Preserves is in 430 ILCS 66/65(a)(14), which lists no exceptions.

I'm not going to encourage anyone to break the law to see the consequences. If you violate the FCCA twice, the penalty can include a suspension of your CCL. If you violate the FCCA three times, the penalty includes a lifetime revocation of your CCL. You can keep your FOID, because you have to commit a felony or domestic violence to lose it.
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#14 CHICAGO HANDGUN OWNER

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 03:52 PM

The exemption is for a public right of way that crosses through or touches the Forest. It not that complicated. A public right of way is a trail. Look in the dictionary.

 

 

It says "A licensee shall not be in violation of this Section while he or she is traveling along a public right of way that touches or crosses any of the premises under subsection (a), (a-5), or (a-10) of this Section if the concealed firearm is carried on his or her person in accordance with the provisions of this Act or is being transported in a vehicle by the licensee in accordance with all other applicable provisions of law."


Edited by CHICAGO HANDGUN OWNER, 14 June 2019 - 03:54 PM.


#15 Mick G

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 06:03 PM

http://fpdcc.com/pre...nd-regulations/

 

Rules and Regulations
 
 
Home   >   Preserves and Trails   >   Rules and Regulations

Region-2_Deer-Grove-East_Walking_01.jpgFor the safety and enjoyment of all visitors, and to protect the ecological health of this important natural land, all Forest Preserve District of Cook County users must abide by the following rules. We appreciate your respect for the land and for other guests, and we look forward to seeing you out on the trail. Enjoy your forest preserves today!

 

To view the full Forest Preserve District of Cook County Municipal Code, please click here. Additional regulations may apply.

GENERAL RULES

Hours

  • Forest Preserve District hours are sunrise to sunset.

 

Pets & Horses

  • Pets must be leashed at all times, except in designated “Dog-Friendly Areas.”
  • Pets, with the exception of service animals, are prohibited from certain locations, including trails near Nature Centers and state-designated Illinois Nature Preserves.
  • Horses may not be hitched to trees.

 

Litter

  • Littering is strictly prohibited—help keep our preserves clean!
  • Smoking materials must be extinguished properly and may not be littered.

 

Vehicles

  • Motorized vehicles are prohibited on grass or trails.
  • Vehicles must be parked in marked spaces.
  • Vehicles may not be parked in preserves overnight.

 

Alcohol

  • Alcohol is not permitted within 50 feet of parking lots and roadways, and where otherwise posted.
  • Glass containers are not allowed.

 

Plant and Wildlife

  • Collection of plants and animals is strictly prohibited. This includes harvesting firewood; collecting mushrooms, wildflowers or other wild plants and their seeds; and otherwise removing or damaging any plants or trees.
  • Hunting is not allowed on any Forest Preserve District property. Visitors may not kill, injure or otherwise disturb any animals or their nests.
  • Feeding of wildlife is strictly prohibited.

 

Firearms

  • Firearms and other concealed weapons are not allowed on Forest Preserve District property, except by police officers or active-duty servicemen and women. PLEASE NOTE: Cook County Forest Preserves are specifically exempted from the Illinois Firearm Concealed Carry Act (Section 65 of the Illinois Firearm Concealed Carry Act (430 ILCS 66 et seq)

 

Archaeology, Salvage and Physical Property

  • Any and all historic or prehistoric ruins found in the Forest Preserves are the property of the State of Illinois and may not be removed without consent.
  • Metal detecting is prohibited.
  • Patrons may not alter, deface, damage or otherwise change any monuments, either natural or manmade, within Forest Preserve District property.

 

Recreational Activities

  • Swimming in any natural body of water is prohibited. Swimming is encouraged in our three aquatics centers.
  • Sports are allowed only in designated fields and locations.
  • Model airplane flying is allowed in designated locations only.

 

Commercial Activity

  • Vendors must obtain a permit to enter Forest Preserve District property.
  • Patrons may not post advertisements on Forest Preserve District property.

 

 

Nobody needs to look anything up in a dictionary, A TRAIL in a forest preserve is forest preserve property.

It's a forest preserve and not a park. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Let me take a wild guess, you are a SOVEREIGN CITIZEN and TRAVELING the TRAIL.

That can be the only logical explanation for your "argument".

If you get caught please get a recording of what happens and post it if you live.

 

Euler has posted the penalties but I'm sure that Tom Dart would just stack charges on you.

He's been known to do that, he personally does not like the public having the right to carry.

Hence (430 ILCS 66/65) Sec. 65. Prohibited areas. 

(14) Any real property under the control of the Cook County Forest Preserve District.

 

You are reading the wrong subsection and reading too much into it.

The above is the correct subsection when it comes to Cook County Forest Preserves.

 

Here's a simple quiz when in doubt:

Am I in a Cook County Forest Preserve?

Am I carrying a handgun?

If you answer yes to both you are breaking the law.


Edited by Mick G, 14 June 2019 - 06:04 PM.


#16 Glock23

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 06:12 PM

Just my opinion, but the exemption referenced in post #14 is valid IF there are public trails that pass completely through the forest preserve.

I'm nowhere near Cook county, though, and am not at all familiar with the forest preserve, hence the "if." But if you can be on a public trail that both enters and exits the preserve, allowing you to travel through the preserve, then I believe the exemption would apply.

Note that the trail system in Madison county has essentially the same rule on their website, though it holds no legal value, because they are public trails that interconnect throughout the county.
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#17 Mr. Fife

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 07:15 PM

This is why I never carry in CCFPD with my CCL. This is where your fishing license and pole carry more weight. You can't be charged under CCL if you aren't carrying under the CCL law.
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#18 Mick G

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 07:16 PM

Just my opinion, but the exemption referenced in post #14 is valid IF there are public trails that pass completely through the forest preserve.

I'm nowhere near Cook county, though, and am not at all familiar with the forest preserve, hence the "if." But if you can be on a public trail that both enters and exits the preserve, allowing you to travel through the preserve, then I believe the exemption would apply.

Note that the trail system in Madison county has essentially the same rule on their website, though it holds no legal value, because they are public trails that interconnect throughout the county.

 

I'm not going to continue this senseless argument that CHICAGO HANDGUN OWNER brings up yearly.

Take the simple quiz:

Am I in a Cook County Forest Preserve?

Am I carrying a handgun?

If you answer yes to both you are breaking the law.

The LAW was written to specifically address Cook County Forest Preserves

because Cook County Sheriff Tom Dart is rabidly opposed to CCL.

The trails are in a Cook County Forest Preserve and are maintained by the same.

He has deputies whose only job is to check applications and file objections.

"About half of the objections filed so far have come from the Cook County Sheriff’s Office"

It's called being Darted but you knew that.

Read this thoroughly and see what opinion you come to.

https://www.gunright...gun-free-zones/



#19 Mr. Fife

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 07:22 PM

What would you be charged with if carrying in CCFPD, and you were not in possession of a CCL at the time?
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#20 Euler

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 07:30 PM

What would you be charged with if carrying in CCFPD, and you were not in possession of a CCL at the time?


If you have no criminal intent, I believe that would be UUW (a Class A misdemeanor) the same as if you were carrying most anywhere else without a CCL.

So I guess if you carry all the time with no CCL and you're worried there would be enhanced penalties for carrying in a CC Forest Preserve, rest easy and proceed as normal.
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#21 Mr. Fife

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 07:33 PM

Do you have a specific statute, or are you just speculating?
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#22 Euler

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 07:54 PM

Do you have a specific statute, or are you just speculating?


720 ILCS 5/24-1(a) is UUW. There's no mention of CC Forest Preserves in that statute.
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#23 CHICAGO HANDGUN OWNER

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 08:19 PM

I believe that the statute states that the exemption applies to the long worded law which bans Chicago Parks and Cook County Forest Preserves but allows carrying on a public way which crosses or touches these restricted areas. The Chicago Park District owns the lakefront bike trails and Cook County Forest Preserve owns the trails through the forest but so what? We are talking about the exemption for trails which are a public way and attached to a public street. . I guess we will never know until a case comes to trial but if one woman can avoid being raped by listening to my interpretation that would be a good thing. 


Edited by CHICAGO HANDGUN OWNER, 14 June 2019 - 08:22 PM.


#24 Mr. Fife

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 08:29 PM

720 ILCS 5/24-1(a) is UUW. There's no mention of CC Forest Preserves in that statute.
720 ILCS 5/24-1(a) 1 deals with bludgeons and knuckles and such. Can you be more specific?
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#25 CHICAGO HANDGUN OWNER

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 08:38 PM

I was watching the Illinois General Assembly when they passed the CCL law and I don't think there was any intent in the law to ban trails. That's why they put that public way clause in. Brandon Phelps, the man who wrote the Concealed Carry law mentioned this.


Edited by CHICAGO HANDGUN OWNER, 14 June 2019 - 08:48 PM.


#26 Mick G

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 08:46 PM

I believe that the statute states that the exemption applies to the long worded law which bans Chicago Parks and Cook County Forest Preserves but allows carrying on a public way which crosses or touches these restricted areas. The Chicago Park District owns the lakefront bike trails and Cook County Forest Preserve owns the trails through the forest but so what? We are talking about the exemption for trails which are a public way and attached to a public street. . I guess we will never know until a case comes to trial but if one woman can avoid being raped by listening to my interpretation that would be a good thing. 

 

I'm not saying I like the law as written in any way. It's just that your interpretation is wrong. They are two different statutes. I would love to be able to carry at Bemis Woods on the trails but if I'm on those trails I have two GSDs with me. I blame Tom Dart entirely for the way the law is written. There is no other County in Illinois that prohibits concealed carry in Forest Preserves. If somebody was harmed because of this stupid Dart law that should fall right onto his shoulders. You and I can disagree on this and yet both believe it is BS. The issue started when your instructor told you otherwise. In doing so he put your freedom in jeopardy and should know better. I NEVER said I liked the law as written but it what it is. You cannot carry in a Cook County Forest Preserve. No instructor should tell you that you can. If you want to be 100% sure, call the Cook County PD or the Cook County Forest Preserve Police.

CCFPP (708) 771-1001. They would have definitive answer.


Edited by Mick G, 14 June 2019 - 08:52 PM.


#27 Euler

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 08:48 PM

720 ILCS 5/24-1(a) is UUW. There's no mention of CC Forest Preserves in that statute.


720 ILCS 5/24-1(a) 1 deals with bludgeons and knuckles and such. Can you be more specific?

Carries or possesses ... concealed on or about his person ... any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser or other firearm, ...


720 ILCS 5/24-1(a) has more than one subsection.
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#28 CHICAGO HANDGUN OWNER

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 09:04 PM

I guess at issue is the "subsection"  The law says "A licensee shall not be in violation of this Section while he or she is traveling along a public right of way that touches or crosses ANY OF THE PREMISES (Parks and Forest Preserves) UNDER SUBSECTION (a), (a-5), or (a-10) of this Section if the concealed firearm is carried on his or her person in accordance with the provisions of this Act or is being transported in a vehicle by the licensee in accordance with all other applicable provisions of law."  I think the prohibited areas are all under the same section in the Statute.



#29 lockman

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 09:13 PM

Chicago handgunner is correct. If the path or trail enters from outside the forest preserve and continues through the forest preserve exiting at a different location you can carry as long as you stick to that path. This would apply to roadways, highways, bike paths or sidewalks going through the preserve. It would not include those paths or trails that are contained entirely within the Cook County Forest preserve. ^ this ***

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#30 Mr. Fife

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 09:15 PM

I'm just curious which statute I would be charged with if carrying in CCFPD without a CCL. Whoever writes the ticket would have to be specific as to which statute to charge me under, otherwise I walk. 24-1 isn't good enough because I don't manufacture firearms, etc. So, what are you charging me with? There had to be a law to break if you are going to charge me with breaking the law. Otherwise, what law did I break?
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