bfreeman Posted February 9, 2015 at 04:20 PM Posted February 9, 2015 at 04:20 PM My concern would be with the stun gun and taser. If I ever had to use my concealed firearm and actually killed someone the bad guys attorney and family would be screaming wanting to know why I used deadly force when there were other legal non-lethal options available to me.
Glock23 Posted February 9, 2015 at 04:35 PM Posted February 9, 2015 at 04:35 PM My concern would be with the stun gun and taser. If I ever had to use my concealed firearm and actually killed someone the bad guys attorney and family would be screaming wanting to know why I used deadly force when there were other legal non-lethal options available to me.Just because alternatives are available doesn't mean you have to make them available to yourself. There is no escalation of force requirement permitting you to use one level of force higher. Carry a handgun, and if you find yourself in a situation you believe puts you at an immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm, then use it.
Smittyp83 Posted February 9, 2015 at 05:03 PM Posted February 9, 2015 at 05:03 PM It always amazed me that I could carry a fixed blade knife on my belt but I couldn't carry a switchblade in my pocket. I guess switchblades are that much more dangerous than a fixed blade knife.
tchostler Posted February 9, 2015 at 07:29 PM Posted February 9, 2015 at 07:29 PM It always amazed me that I could carry a fixed blade knife on my belt but I couldn't carry a switchblade in my pocket. I guess switchblades are that much more dangerous than a fixed blade knife.Yep, drive by stabbings....
OldMarineVet Posted February 9, 2015 at 08:12 PM Author Posted February 9, 2015 at 08:12 PM It always amazed me that I could carry a fixed blade knife on my belt but I couldn't carry a switchblade in my pocket. I guess switchblades are that much more dangerous than a fixed blade knife.Yeah, a lot of the arms laws are old and dysfunctional (anybody looking to carry any of these: bludgeon, slung-shot, sand-club, or sand-bag?) In the 1950's, movies of teen gangs were popular with kids. Movie scenes of two sides lined up against each other to "rumble" (not realistic) tended to start off with one of the guys pulling out a switchblade and dramatically opening it. Same kind of start for some of the one-on-one movie scenes. So switchblades became cool for kids to carry. Parents squawked to representatives to make switchblades illegal even though there weren't any real crimes to speak of. Once one state got the law, it spread to others (we know how that works.) Knife Rights has had success starting with going after switchblade laws in quite a few states so they tend to lead with that. By the way, the only reason I'd go for my EDC knife is if I ran out of ammo. Drawing and point-shooting a small handgun at close range is just as fast and more effective than a knife. I use the EDC knife more as a tool throughout the day.
frogmorton11 Posted February 9, 2015 at 08:40 PM Posted February 9, 2015 at 08:40 PM Switchblades are a fun novelty, but technology has left them behind. There are many quality one-handed opening knives out there and nothing opens faster than a Spiderco Delica Wave.
ChicagoRonin70 Posted February 9, 2015 at 08:54 PM Posted February 9, 2015 at 08:54 PM It always amazed me that I could carry a fixed blade knife on my belt but I couldn't carry a switchblade in my pocket. I guess switchblades are that much more dangerous than a fixed blade knife.Yeah, a lot of the arms laws are old and dysfunctional (anybody looking to carry any of these: bludgeon, slung-shot, sand-club, or sand-bag?) In the 1950's, movies of teen gangs were popular with kids. Movie scenes of two sides lined up against each other to "rumble" (not realistic) tended to start off with one of the guys pulling out a switchblade and dramatically opening it. Same kind of start for some of the one-on-one movie scenes. So switchblades became cool for kids to carry. Parents squawked to representatives to make switchblades illegal even though there weren't any real crimes to speak of. Once one state got the law, it spread to others (we know how that works.) Knife Rights has had success starting with going after switchblade laws in quite a few states so they tend to lead with that. By the way, the only reason I'd go for my EDC knife is if I ran out of ammo. Drawing and point-shooting a small handgun at close range is just as fast and more effective than a knife. I use the EDC knife more as a tool throughout the day. You're familiar with the Tueller Drill, yes? I train tactical security people in non-weapon combat, and we drill that using Shocknives and marker rounds, which makes a pretty good approximation for pain/fear of an actual knife attack versus a gun. If you have someone doing biomechanical cutting and "sewing machine" stabbing techniques, even combat-trained shooters will get very bad hits from a determined, aggressive knife attacker. More than half of the time, if the knife attacker is at 7 yards, he will "win" and get at least one, if not several, stabs in, including disarming cuts to the hands, arms, and face. If the attacker is within half that distance, the average number of disarming or killing hits to the hands, arms, face, and body rises to 4 before the shooter can get a gun out and a shot off. If you add grappling to the mix, which I do, shooting a firearm during a scrum with a knife-armed opponent is extremely difficult. Just as fast? Unfortunately not true. More effective? That depends on where the bullet hits. I've seen people laid open with massive slash wounds from a very small knife, wounds that severed tendons, arteries, removed fingers, took out eyes, and worse—and that's after they've been shot. An aggressive, determined knife-wielding attacker is a scary thing to face.
bobapunk Posted February 9, 2015 at 09:06 PM Posted February 9, 2015 at 09:06 PM SB711 is amending the FCCA which would be preempted automatically and wouldn't need a supermajority since its already law To work for Chicago, they would have to add knives to the preemption - and it would need a super majority. Except the "preemption" only applies to handguns and handgun ammunition, not knives...
OldMarineVet Posted February 9, 2015 at 10:42 PM Author Posted February 9, 2015 at 10:42 PM It always amazed me that I could carry a fixed blade knife on my belt but I couldn't carry a switchblade in my pocket. I guess switchblades are that much more dangerous than a fixed blade knife.Yeah, a lot of the arms laws are old and dysfunctional (anybody looking to carry any of these: bludgeon, slung-shot, sand-club, or sand-bag?) In the 1950's, movies of teen gangs were popular with kids. Movie scenes of two sides lined up against each other to "rumble" (not realistic) tended to start off with one of the guys pulling out a switchblade and dramatically opening it. Same kind of start for some of the one-on-one movie scenes. So switchblades became cool for kids to carry. Parents squawked to representatives to make switchblades illegal even though there weren't any real crimes to speak of. Once one state got the law, it spread to others (we know how that works.) Knife Rights has had success starting with going after switchblade laws in quite a few states so they tend to lead with that. By the way, the only reason I'd go for my EDC knife is if I ran out of ammo. Drawing and point-shooting a small handgun at close range is just as fast and more effective than a knife. I use the EDC knife more as a tool throughout the day. You're familiar with the Tueller Drill, yes? I train tactical security people in non-weapon combat, and we drill that using Shocknives and marker rounds, which makes a pretty good approximation for pain/fear of an actual knife attack versus a gun. If you have someone doing biomechanical cutting and "sewing machine" stabbing techniques, even combat-trained shooters will get very bad hits from a determined, aggressive knife attacker. More than half of the time, if the knife attacker is at 7 yards, he will "win" and get at least one, if not several, stabs in, including disarming cuts to the hands, arms, and face. If the attacker is within half that distance, the average number of disarming or killing hits to the hands, arms, face, and body rises to 4 before the shooter can get a gun out and a shot off. If you add grappling to the mix, which I do, shooting a firearm during a scrum with a knife-armed opponent is extremely difficult. Just as fast? Unfortunately not true. More effective? That depends on where the bullet hits. I've seen people laid open with massive slash wounds from a very small knife, wounds that severed tendons, arteries, removed fingers, took out eyes, and worse—and that's after they've been shot. An aggressive, determined knife-wielding attacker is a scary thing to face. Great video. Thank you. Yes, I know the Tueller analysis. Great stuff. Never a good situation if somebody is already coming at you with any weapon. But, I'm personally able to draw my G27 from appendix holster faster than my folding knife from my pocket (maybe I'm just too slow with the knife. ) The draw is one-handed to the middle of my crouched, moving body (breast bone area height.) The other hand can be used for defense if needed. Since I'm finger-pointing at close range instead of using the sights I can fire bursts right away. In the end, the odds are definitely against me if attacked by a guy with knife or gun already drawn. But the handgun would serve me better personally than the knife in most cases. Thanks, again.
ChicagoRonin70 Posted February 9, 2015 at 11:34 PM Posted February 9, 2015 at 11:34 PM Great video. Thank you. Yes, I know the Tueller analysis. Great stuff. Never a good situation if somebody is already coming at you with any weapon. But, I'm personally able to draw my G27 from appendix holster faster than my folding knife from my pocket (maybe I'm just too slow with the knife. ) The draw is one-handed to the middle of my crouched, moving body (breast bone area height.) The other hand can be used for defense if needed. Since I'm finger-pointing at close range instead of using the sights I can fire bursts right away. In the end, the odds are definitely against me if attacked by a guy with knife or gun already drawn. But the handgun would serve me better personally than the knife in most cases. Thanks, again. What you describe, the point-shooting, moving posture with a "stand-off" hand, is exactly what our handgun combat guys teach for that scenario, as it has the most chance of success, especially when combined with lateral movement. You are absolutely correct that the gun comes out from there faster than the knife from the pocket, unless you put the knife in a holster pocket for easy access (which I do), or clip it on your belt or right to the opening of the pocket, at least for folders. If I use a fixed-blade knife, I use one with a good friction retention system like the ones shown in the photo attachment. I can get those out and in play in under .25 seconds unconcealed, or .65 seconds concealed, as compared to just under 1.3 seconds with my concealed carry pistol. But that's also why I carry a walking stick suitable for fighting in hand at all time, because I'm prescribed a "walking aid" by the VA. Ain't nothin' faster than already out and ready to use! I will say one thing, that there is no such thing as a "knife fight" but rather, simply attempted killing with a knife. No knowledgeable person will ever "duel" with a knife like you see in the movies and such. I've been stabbed six times (seven if you count me grabbing a blade out of someone's hand and getting a palm cut) and all of those were by "amateurs"—otherwise, I'd have been stabbed more than once on each occasion.
tkroenlein Posted February 9, 2015 at 11:50 PM Posted February 9, 2015 at 11:50 PM I am more scareder of a knife than a gun.
OldMarineVet Posted February 10, 2015 at 12:04 AM Author Posted February 10, 2015 at 12:04 AM Glad to hear you and your handgun combat guys recognize that technique. BTW, I have a scar on my palm also
ChicagoRonin70 Posted February 10, 2015 at 12:09 AM Posted February 10, 2015 at 12:09 AM Glad to hear you and your handgun combat guys recognize that technique. BTW, I have a scar on my palm also I've taken several marker rounds to the face while doing drills with people using that technique, a strong indication that it works pretty well. And better a knife cut in the palm than in a more vital area, for sure!
kevinmcc Posted February 10, 2015 at 01:47 AM Posted February 10, 2015 at 01:47 AM Many states they are legal if not carried on person. I know a guy back in Iowa that had all different kinds of them and sometimes had them at his business.I think it is silly to have them outlawed, especially seeing how easy and fast modern non-spring assisted knives can be opened.I also would like to see 3" or 4" legal length, Illinois is very restrictive on the length.
automatic Posted February 10, 2015 at 02:26 AM Posted February 10, 2015 at 02:26 AM Would love it if they included collapsible batons in the bill as well. Might be a nice option for GFZ. I'd prefer a baton to a knife or stun gun. Just my preference.
djmarkla Posted February 10, 2015 at 03:24 AM Posted February 10, 2015 at 03:24 AM I have heard the saying " The loser of a knife fight dies at the scene of the fight. The winner of the knife fight dies in the ambulance on the way to the hospital"
ChicagoRonin70 Posted February 10, 2015 at 05:03 AM Posted February 10, 2015 at 05:03 AM I have heard the saying " The loser of a knife fight dies at the scene of the fight. The winner of the knife fight dies in the ambulance on the way to the hospital" That is not far from the truth, which is why this is an excellent idea: Would love it if they included collapsible batons in the bill as well. Might be a nice option for GFZ. I'd prefer a baton to a knife or stun gun. Just my preference. Through many years of training, practice, and actual experience dealing with live knife attacks, a baton, cane, or other "stand-off" range hand-to-hand weapon is the best protection from being cut or stabbed. You can attack the knife itself, the hand holding it, the limb connected to the hand, and the head of the attacker much more effectively. Other than that hammer walking stick that I have, which I've modified to have a point on the bottom (i.e., a short spear), something like a Cold Steel City Stick is the most effective weapon against a knife-wielding attacker, followed by a 26" or even better a 31" ASP baton. The reason being is that the length and speed of the nearly unbreakable carbon fiber/fiberglass stick, coupled with the relatively light but still damaging metal head can be whipped around extremely quickly, and recovered quickly as well, with one or two hands. It's an even more effective anti-knife weapon if you put a brass hiking spike on the bottom, covered by a quickly removable rubber foot, like a Leki walking pole tip over it. Like the hammer walking stick with an added spike onto it, it makes for a double-ended bludgeoning and stabbing/thrusting weapon that can be used to strike a knife-using attacker from a safer distance, disarm them by striking the weapon or limb holding it, and attack vulnerable areas like the head. Plus, it's always "in-hand" so it's as quick to deploy as anything you can carry. It's a good thing to carry to give yourself time to react/defend against surprise attacks, create some distance, and draw your firearm to stop an attacker with definitive force. Incidentally, a walking stick is entirely legal to carry, so long as it does not have a hidden sword inside it. However, those sword canes are absolutely great for self-protection, as you can use the sword in one hand and the cane part in the other to block or strike an attacker. Those, also should be allowed as "concealed weapons" and a concealed carry licence should permit them to be carried. It's just one more effective option for a law abiding individual to prevent attackers from harming you.
vactor Posted February 10, 2015 at 02:37 PM Posted February 10, 2015 at 02:37 PM yeah, collapsible baton would be awesome! ugh, illinois. so hard to like. hahaha!
bcook619 Posted February 10, 2015 at 02:59 PM Posted February 10, 2015 at 02:59 PM yeah, collapsible baton would be awesome! ugh, illinois. so hard to like. hahaha!Are they also illeagal?
stm Posted February 10, 2015 at 07:06 PM Posted February 10, 2015 at 07:06 PM Many states they are legal if not carried on person. I know a guy back in Iowa that had all different kinds of them and sometimes had them at his business. I think it is silly to have them outlawed, especially seeing how easy and fast modern non-spring assisted knives can be opened. I also would like to see 3" or 4" legal length, Illinois is very restrictive on the length. You can carry a switchblade or a Taser on Iowa with a valid carry permit.
kevinmcc Posted February 11, 2015 at 02:43 AM Posted February 11, 2015 at 02:43 AM Many states they are legal if not carried on person. I know a guy back in Iowa that had all different kinds of them and sometimes had them at his business.I think it is silly to have them outlawed, especially seeing how easy and fast modern non-spring assisted knives can be opened.I also would like to see 3" or 4" legal length, Illinois is very restrictive on the length.You can carry a switchblade or a Taser on Iowa with a valid carry permit. And blades over 4".
vactor Posted February 11, 2015 at 02:03 PM Posted February 11, 2015 at 02:03 PM yeah, collapsible baton would be awesome! ugh, illinois. so hard to like. hahaha!Are they also illeagal? yes. illegal. in illinois, the general rule is, if you want to have something, it is either illegal, or you need super secret license to have it. collapsible batons are illegal. as is pretty much anything that lets you be responsible for your own safety. in exchange, i get to call chicago police to come and save me (IF and when they get there, and hopefully don't arrest ME)
Tim4k5 Posted February 11, 2015 at 09:32 PM Posted February 11, 2015 at 09:32 PM Switchblades are a fun novelty, but technology has left them behind. There are many quality one-handed opening knives out there and nothing opens faster than a Spiderco Delica Wave.I carry an Emerson with the "wave" feature. When I first got it I was expecting a learning curve with getting it to open every time, but there wasn't one. Pull it out of my jeans pocket and its open.....no button to push or flipping action needed. Even if they made autos legal I don't see myself switching to one as the Emerson is quicker than a switchblade without springs to replace or mechanisms to fail.
mauserme Posted February 11, 2015 at 10:32 PM Posted February 11, 2015 at 10:32 PM SB711 was assigned to Judiciary today. It's a step in the process. I'm moving this thread to Illinois Politics at Old Marine Vet's request.
OldMarineVet Posted February 12, 2015 at 02:44 PM Author Posted February 12, 2015 at 02:44 PM Here's a recent article http://www.ammoland.com/2015/02/il-bill-would-allow-police-and-ccw-to-possess-switchblades/#axzz3RXdQDPF7 ===================================================== Ammoland Shooting Sports News IL: Bill Would Allow Police & Concealed Carry Permit Holders To Possess Switchblades Posted on February 9, 2015 by Dean Weingarten Arizona - -(Ammoland.com)- Illinois Senator Tim Bivins has introduced an act to allow people with valid concealed carry permits to carry, purchase, and possess switchblade knives, stun guns, or tasers. It is an incremental reform to the Illinois code. If the bill can make it out of committee and up for a vote, it seems imminently sensible. Who would object to someone who is legally allowed to carry a concealed pistol, from being allowed to carry a knife, stun gun, or taser in the same circumstances? From ilga.gov: Amends the Criminal Code of 2012. Provides that a person who has been issued a currently valid license under the Firearm Concealed Carry Act may carry a concealed stun gun or taser and may purchase, carry, or possess a switchblade knife. Provides that the exemption applies only if the licensee complies with the restrictions on carrying in specific locations as provided in the Firearm Concealed Carry Act. Permits peace officers to purchase, possess, or carry a switchblade knife. Provides that the provisions prohibiting the manufacture or sales of a switchblade knife do not apply to or affect the manufacture or retail sale of a switchblade knife to a retired law enforcement officer who is permitted to carry a concealed firearm under 18 U.S.C. 926C or to any person who has been issued a currently valid license under the Firearm Concealed Carry Act at the time of the commission of the offense. Provides that retired law enforcement officers may carry stun guns or tasers in the same manner as provided licensees carrying concealed firearms under the Firearm Concealed Carry Act. Effective immediately. The ban on knives that open with the push of a button, or switchblades comes from an era when yellow journalists were testing the limits of their new found power. They were able to push for a ban on common pocket knives by appealing to emotion and prejudice. Some say that the play West Side Story was directly responsible for the ban. Bernard Levine, in his seminal article on the subject sums up the legislative atmosphere: The debate in Congress over the bills to ban switchblades from interstate congress (in 1958 there were four versions in the House and one in the Senate) had the surreal quality inevitable when immoral men put on a public show of enforcing morality. As in the present debate over assault rifles, Congressmen, media tycoons, and big-city police chiefs indulged in hysterical fits of fabricated sensationalism. Faced with this onslaught in 1958, most reasonable men kept silent and went along, out of fear of being labeled pro- criminal. Even the National Rifle Association knuckled under, then still believing in the power of appeasement. The federal ban had been preceded by local bans based on the same emotional nonsense. Now, some 50 years later, the silly and irrelevant bans are finally being undone. It is hard to say how many innocent victims have had their property stolen and their rights violated because of this emotion based legislation. This is not just ancient history. The Village Voice reports that 60,000 people have been arrested in New York in the past decade for possessing common pocket knives. This is what happens when a greedy and unscrupulous New York City DA decides to take advantage of a knife law for his own purposes. Other jurisdictions have been wiser. Arizona passed a knife preemption bill in 2010, but then, Arizona had the sense never to pass a switchblade ban in the first place. New Hampshire passed knife preemption in 2010, Utah in 2011, Georgia in 2012, and Tennessee in 2013. In 2013, Kansas, Alaska, Indiana, and Texas eliminated their state bans on switchblades. These reforms have been the result of the efforts of civil rights group Knife Rights, and the numerous individuals who have supported them. Enough decades have elapsed that most legislatures are willing to see the folly of the 1950s laws. There is no doubt that knives are arms covered by the second amendment. Knives have been arms used by all militaries and militias throughout all history. We do not know how long it will take to restore the rights that have been infringed on since the 1950s. But it is happening, just as the concealed carry movement swept the country in the last 25 years.
stevemc Posted February 12, 2015 at 03:12 PM Posted February 12, 2015 at 03:12 PM If you are interested in an easy, single handed opening knife, the Ken Onion Leek is a good one. Wal-Mart carries them for around $50. They also make a smaller one called the scallion. I have both but prefer the Leek. Opens very fast and locks up tight.
ChicagoRonin70 Posted February 12, 2015 at 04:09 PM Posted February 12, 2015 at 04:09 PM I'd just rather be able to not worry about what I do currently carry, as a safety and rescue tool-type knife. I can get this out and open in under half a second, from being fully enclosed in the designated pocket I keep it in, one-handed. I would prefer not to get arrested for having something that's clearly supposed to be a tool, although I was once taken aside by a LEO on the CTA who saw the outline of the knife in my pocket and recognized it for what it was. I got out of the confiscation and ticket when he found out that I was a disabled veteran, but still, it's annoying that is even a possibility. http://images.knifecenter.com/thumb/1500x1500/knifecenter/magnum/images/BO01SC618.jpg
tchostler Posted February 12, 2015 at 05:30 PM Posted February 12, 2015 at 05:30 PM If you are interested in an easy, single handed opening knife, the Ken Onion Leek is a good one. Wal-Mart carries them for around $50. They also make a smaller one called the scallion. I have both but prefer the Leek. Opens very fast and locks up tight.I thought the assisted opening knives were illegal in Illinois too.
OldMarineVet Posted February 12, 2015 at 05:42 PM Author Posted February 12, 2015 at 05:42 PM A policeman friend explained the benefits of the NEW tasers. Link below is to a civilian version which is small enough to fit in a pocket. If he's not going to use his firearm, he likes to use the least powerful setting, Drive STUN, which temporarily incapacitates the person on contact without any effect on the nervous system. I'm finding these NEW tasers interesting. Better than pepper spray for a person not able to carry a firearm... http://www.taser.com/products/self-defense-products/taser-c2 Removed the rather lengthy review and put in this product info.
papa Posted February 12, 2015 at 06:12 PM Posted February 12, 2015 at 06:12 PM If you are interested in an easy, single handed opening knife, the Ken Onion Leek is a good one. Wal-Mart carries them for around $50. They also make a smaller one called the scallion. I have both but prefer the Leek. Opens very fast and locks up tight.I thought the assisted opening knives were illegal in Illinois too. Spring assisted knives aren't illegal because you have to manually start the blade moving before the spring assist kicks in .
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