IL CCL Cancelled After Moving Out of State

[jmeyers]

This is kind of interesting and I'll be following it as I have a similar situation.

 

I was a IL Resident, had a NRA 8 Hour Basic Pistol Certificate as well as a FL conceal carry (12 hours credit to IL), went ahead and took a full 16 Hours from a Instructor I knew (now up to 28 hours), then a guy my father worked with taught it and I took another full 16 Hours to bring me to 44 Hours (Who can have enough right???).

 

I applied the day applications opened and submitted all my certificates/credentials, TCN for Fingerprint/Background, $150, etc (jumped through all the hoops). I was issued the IL CCW 2/28/2014.

 

In June 2014 I was given the pleasure to move out of the State to Florida to work for one of the major employers in Central Florida. I kept my IL Drivers License until January 2015 as allowed by law. Apparently now that I surrendered the IL Drivers License and became a Florida resident Im no longer suited for a IL CCW as a Resident or Non-Resident as it has been revoked as of May 2015.

 

Now interesting info is, I've argued with nameless people (In Writing via email) from the Illinois State Police Firearms Services and have gotten the following excuses:

 

Response #1

You are no longer a resident of Illinois, therefore you are not eligible

for Illinois conceal carry license.

Had you moved to a substantially similar state, you could have reapplied
as a non-resident. Substantially similar means the comparable state
regulates who may carry firearms, concealed or otherwise, in public;
prohibits all who have involuntary mental health admissions, and those
with voluntary admissions within the past 5 years, from carrying firearms,
concealed or otherwise, in public; reports denied persons to NICS; and
participates in reporting persons authorized to carry firearms, concealed
or otherwise, in public through Nlets.

The Illinois State Police sent a survey to each state to determine which
of them has laws that are substantially similar. You can find out how
your state responded and if your state?s laws have been determined to be
substantially similar by visiting our web site?s frequently asked
questions. Currently, the only states considered to be substantially
similar are Hawaii, New Mexico, South Carolina and Virginia. Note: Not
all states have responded to the survey.

 

Response #2

The state of Florida does not prohibit firearms to those who have been voluntarily
admitted to a mental health facility, which is one of the five points of
comparison. As noted this information is updated yearly as the states
respond to us.
Florida is not substantially similar, there for you would not be eligible
as a non-resident.

 

Response #3

You are not eligible to apply as a non-resident. It does not matter that

you were once an Illinois resident.

We recheck all background every 90 days on all conceal carry licenses.

You were canceled because you are no longer an Illinois resident.

 

 

 

Here is the interesting part. Sometime dig through the CCW Law of Hawaii (can't find it), Virginia, South Carolina and New Mexico to see how they are similar since IL states the only requirement FL does not meet is the voluntary admission to a mental facility:

 

Florida CCW Law

FL law states the following on "mental health". 744.331 talks about incantation and chapter 394 talks about voluntary and involuntary mental health admissions.

(i) Has not been adjudicated an incapacitated person under s. 744.331, or similar laws of any other state, unless 5 years have elapsed since the applicant’s restoration to capacity by court order;

(j) Has not been committed to a mental institution under chapter 394, or similar laws of any other state, unless the applicant produces a certificate from a licensed psychiatrist that he or she has not suffered from disability for at least 5 years prior to the date of submission of the application;

South Carolina CCW Law

states nothing about a mental health as a requirement for one of their permits according to

http://scstatehouse.gov/code/t23c031.php

http://www.sled.sc.gov/documents/CWP/CWPLawUpdate.pdf

Virginia CCW Law

states nothing about a voluntary mental health as a requirement for one of their permits

 

1. An individual who was ineligible to possess a firearm under Section 18.2-308.1:3 and who was released from commitment less than five years before the date of this application for a concealed handgun permit.

New Mexico CCW Law

has not been adjudicated mentally incompetent or committed to a mental institution;

 

 

For clarification of the sticking point in IL, here is the Administrative Code 1231.10 the ISP is hiding behind. Keep in mind its up to ISP to decide substantially similar which it appears they are not doing fairly based on the above Statutes from the various states:

"Substantially Similar" means the comparable state regulates who may carry firearms, concealed or otherwise, in public; prohibits all who have involuntary mental health admissions, and those with voluntary admissions within the past 5 years, from carrying firearms, concealed or otherwise, in public; reports denied persons to NICS; and participates in reporting persons authorized to carry firearms, concealed or otherwise, in public through NLETs.

I have requested via FOIA the actual surveys from the State of Illinois (which I don't expect to get). It has a FOIA Case ID of 15-1231

[jmeyers]

I'll also add that I travel to IL 2-3x a month for work which is why Im interested in continuing to carry in the state of IL.

[kwc]

I have requested via FOIA the actual surveys from the State of Illinois (which I don't expect to get). It has a FOIA Case ID of 15-1231

 

You'll get them. I have copies of the survey letters and responses for several states that I obtained through FOIA requests. ISP has been exceptionally responsive to all of my FOIA inquiries.

 

I believe ISP is exclusively relying on the survey responses to make their decision regarding whether or not a state is substantially similar.

[jmeyers]

Its interesting that they are relying on Survey results and not actually looking at the Statutes for that state. It took me all of 20 minutes to look at the 4 states and compare them to IL (as well as FL).

 

Ive also been in touch with Mr. Sigale in hopes that someone with the training and a revocation simply because they moved will aid other Non Residents. Like i said, mine is similar but unique in that I took IL training, did all the IL requirements and hoops and still got revoked.

[Indigo]

Hmmm, the ISP uses a voluntary survey completed (presumably) by state officials and returned to the ISP to determine if the state's laws are substantially similar. How do you justify basing the denial of 2nd Amendment rights to non-residents on a survey rather than doing the actual legal research?

 

I wonder just how many law school interns are hanging out in Springfield this summer? Or how many paralegals there are on the Illinois State payroll? In this day and age of the Internet, researching the 50 different state laws on the topic should take one person what, maybe 2-3 days to complete. Then a couple of days for an "executive committee" to review the compilation of other state's laws. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts (not much of difference these days, thanks to inflation) that there are more than the current 4 states that should be in the substantially similar category.

[borgranta]

Hmmm, the ISP uses a voluntary survey completed (presumably) by state officials and returned to the ISP to determine if the state's laws are substantially similar. How do you justify basing the denial of 2nd Amendment rights to non-residents on a survey rather than doing the actual legal research?

 

I wonder just how many law school interns are hanging out in Springfield this summer? Or how many paralegals there are on the Illinois State payroll? In this day and age of the Internet, researching the 50 different state laws on the topic should take one person what, maybe 2-3 days to complete. Then a couple of days for an "executive committee" to review the compilation of other state's laws. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts (not much of difference these days, thanks to inflation) that there are more than the current 4 states that should be in the substantially similar category.

What would stop an official from a pro-gun state from falsifying the survey to enable their residents to carry in ILLINOIS.

[Hipshot Percussion]

This may be the silliest and most confounding part of the FCCL laws. If you have a valid Illinois CCL and you move, they should immediately issue you a non-resident permit (for a minimal charge). You have taken all the classes. They have issued you a license that shows you have taken and passed all the classes. It shouldn't make any difference where you are going, only where you've been (Illinois). It's just so frustrating and I don't even have skin in the game!

 

I don't know why I make myself so crazy over this specific part of the law - I should be aware that this State is run by the group who always uses the "common sense" quote and I already know they don't have any.

 

Stay Safe and Carry Responsibly

[borgranta]

The governor could potentially issue an executive order compelling the ISP to issue to all non-residents unless the ISP can prove that the applicant has voluntarily admitted himself or herself within the last 5 years. The way they are handling non-resident licensing now is a violation of due process for most non-residents.

[Weldor]

I was in Fl. a few years ago when you could have a Il. and Fl. D.R. License I went down to the D.L. Office and they would not take my Il. D.L. for I.D. had to have my birth cert. the man behind me was from Oh. and they Accepted his Oh. D.L. for I.D.

[Gamma]

How do you justify basing the denial of 2nd Amendment rights to non-residents

Simple, they don't consider it a civil right and don't treat it as such. It's just another regulated privilege that they can treat as they see fit.

[stockboyy]

 

How do you justify basing the denial of 2nd Amendment rights to non-residents

Simple, they don't consider it a civil right and don't treat it as such. It's just another regulated privilege that they can treat as they see fit.

 

[stockboyy]

Simple, they don't consider it a civil right and don't treat it as such. It's just another regulated privilege that they can treat as they see fit.

THIS describes the FOID ACT also.

[Indigo]

Simple, they don't consider it a civil right and don't treat it as such. It's just another regulated privilege that they can treat as they see fit.

THIS describes the FOID ACT also.

True, but logic and good legal practice dictates that your regulations should be authoritative. How could you stand in front of a judge and answer the question "How did you determine which states have laws that are substantially similar?" without expecting to get slapped upside the head?

[jmeyers]

What I find interesting is I have now had ISP FSB admit in writing that they run background and mental health checks every 90 days. I don't know that ANYONE agreed to that when filling out a Resident CCW application. We agreed to A BACKGROUND CHECK not, checks every 90 days.

 

I also find it interesting I was good enough to have a CCW with 44 hours of verifiable training and then suddenly I can't even give them the extra $150 to convert to a Non Resident card.

 

Like I said, Ive sent this to the Attorney thats working on 3:14-CV-03320 in hopes it helps prove how big of idiots Illinois is even more.

[Gamma]

This may be the silliest and most confounding part of the FCCL laws. If you have a valid Illinois CCL and you move, they should immediately issue you a non-resident permit (for a minimal charge). You have taken all the classes. They have issued you a license that shows you have taken and passed all the classes. It shouldn't make any difference where you are going, only where you've been (Illinois). It's just so frustrating and I don't even have skin in the game!

 

I don't know why I make myself so crazy over this specific part of the law - I should be aware that this State is run by the group who always uses the "common sense" quote and I already know they don't have any.

 

Stay Safe and Carry Responsibly

There is no such thing as a "non resident permit". There is no distinction in the FCCA between licenses for residents and non-residents. There is also no residency distinction or requirement in the qualifications for a license section of the law or the revokation provisions which would seem to indicate that ISP is violating the law when they revoke licenses of people who move out of state. The only distinction is in the application process.

[jmeyers]

Im wondering if it makes sense to get a 2nd suit going for the obvious and blatant disregard to users who have been revoked because we've moved out of state or wait and see how Culp vs Madigan plays out.

[III]

Im wondering if it makes sense to get a 2nd suit going for the obvious and blatant disregard to users who have been revoked because we've moved out of state or wait and see how Culp vs Madigan plays out.

 

 

Count me in.

[jmeyers]

 

Im wondering if it makes sense to get a 2nd suit going for the obvious and blatant disregard to users who have been revoked because we've moved out of state or wait and see how Culp vs Madigan plays out.

 

 

Count me in.

 

 

Did you have a CCW actually issued that is now in a "Revoked/Cancelled" status?

[III]

 

 

Im wondering if it makes sense to get a 2nd suit going for the obvious and blatant disregard to users who have been revoked because we've moved out of state or wait and see how Culp vs Madigan plays out.

 

 

Count me in.

 

 

Did you have a CCW actually issued that is now in a "Revoked/Cancelled" status?

 

 

Yes

[jmeyers]

Anyone else in this group of having CCW issued and then revoked/cancelled because of a move? Im betting it may be worth a 2nd case.

[jmeyers]

Sec. 87. Administrative and judicial review.

(a) Whenever an application for a concealed carry license is denied, whenever the Department fails to act on an application within 90 days of its receipt, or whenever a license is revoked or suspended as provided in this Act, the aggrieved party may appeal to the Director for a hearing upon the denial, revocation, suspension, or failure to act on the application, unless the denial was made by the Concealed Carry Licensing Review Board, in which case the aggrieved party may petition the circuit court in writing in the county of his or her residence for a hearing upon the denial.

 

​Yet, they won't accept my Appeal

[jmeyers]

the joke we call the Illinois State Police just keeps getting better. Here is their written email response to my request for an Administrative Review/Appeal for revocation:

 

This will be added to your application, but you are not eligible for

administrative review.

Sec. 87. Administrative and judicial review.
(a) Whenever an application for a concealed carry license is denied,
whenever the Department fails to act on an application within 90 days of
its receipt, or whenever a license is revoked or suspended as provided in
this Act, the aggrieved party may appeal to the Director for a hearing
upon the denial, revocation, suspension, or failure to act on the
application, unless the denial was made by the Concealed Carry Licensing
Review Board, in which case the aggrieved party may petition the circuit
court in writing in the county of his or her residence for a hearing upon
the denial.
( All final administrative decisions of the Department or the Concealed
Carry Licensing Review Board under this Act shall be subject to judicial
review under the provisions of the Administrative Review Law. The term
"administrative decision" is defined as in Section 3-101 of the Code of
Civil Procedure.
(Source: P.A. 98-63, eff. 7-9-13.)


You were not denied,revoked, or suspended. Your license was canceled as
you are no longer eligible for a resident conceal carry license. You would
have to reapply as an out of state resident, if you were from a
substantially similar state, which Florida is not at this time. You are
not eligible for any Illinois State Police, Firearms Services
identification, including conceal carry and firearms owner Identification
(FOID). If Florida responds to our survey, stating they are substantially
similar, you could then reapply.

[kwc]

CANCELLED! The term doesn't even appear in the statute or the administrative code!

 

I'd keep that email in a safe place.

[jmeyers]

Oh trust me. They are all printed as well as backed up. I just wish these people would provide a name to go with these blissful acknowledgements of blatant disregard for FCCA

[jmeyers]

I love this part

 

 

Your license was canceled as

you are no longer eligible for a resident conceal carry license. You would
have to reapply as an out of state resident, if you were from a
substantially similar state, which Florida is not at this time.

 

So you want me to pay $300 for a Non Resident Application + $80 for Fingerprints in addition to the $150 a resident application + $80 for Fingerprints I've already paid. I hope some attorney has a field day with this clown that hides behind the signature

 

 

Respectfully,

Illinois State Police
Firearms Services Bureau
Concealed Carry Unit

[Gamma]

the joke we call the Illinois State Police just keeps getting better. Here is their written email response to my request for an Administrative Review/Appeal for revocation:

If they are denying you administrative review, then go directly to court. Which is really better anyway as their "review" is an utter joke.

 

"Respectfully" just another slap in the face. They do not respect you or your civil rights.

[jmeyers]

 

the joke we call the Illinois State Police just keeps getting better. Here is their written email response to my request for an Administrative Review/Appeal for revocation:

If they are denying you administrative review, then go directly to court.

 

 

If I could find an attorney that would take run with it I would. I know Mr. Sigel is busy with the other Non Resident case so Im forwarding info to him but don't expect him to do much with this one unless he somehow can include it in the case thats already been filed. Whats been written in the past week of me trying to get a review and get questions answered is a blatant regard for the actual ACT that was written.

[jmeyers]

How nice, they are now going to provide me a written statement from the Director at some point apparently:

 

The cancelation is based on you loosing your FOID card. An incomplete

application is canceled out, as yours was when your Illinois Licence was
surrendered. I was told that you have a written statement from the
director be signed and sent to you on this matter in general.

 

​They were even so nice as to Cancel the Foid card. June 8 I still had a Active FOID according to ISPFSB.com. I now (3 days later) have been revoked on it, or should i say Cancelled.

[jmeyers]

I actually got the FOIA request back in a timely manner.

 

Florida's survey said

Question 4: Does your state prohibit the use or possession of firearms based on a voluntary mental health admission within the last five years?

Answer 4: No

 

question 6: If you answered no to questions 4 or 5, is there pending legislation that addresses the concern of mental health admissions with regards to possession of firmarms? If yes, what effective date? Please provide a copy of legislative language.

Answer 6: Yes, July, 1, 2013

 

790.065(2)4a-b

b. As used in this paragraph, "committed to a mental institution" means:

I. Involuntary commitment, commitment for mental defectiveness or mental illness, and commitment for substance abuse.

II. Notwithstanding sub-sub-paragraph I, voluntary admission to a mental institution for outpatient or inpatient treatment of a person who had a involuntary exam under s394.463

 

Seems to be, ISP received proper documentation, and thought, oh what the heck, lets deny them apps anyway.

[jmeyers]

Interesting Information

 

Of the 4 states that the ISP deems substantially similar (Hawaii, Virginia, South Carolina and New Mexico)

 

South Carolina responded Yes to Questions 1-5

Virginia responded Yes to Questions 1-4, No to Question 5 (Does your state have a mechanism to track or report voluntary mental health admissions for the purpose of revoking or approving a concealed carry license)

New Mexico responded Yes to Questions 1-4, No to Question 5 (Does your state have a mechanism to track or report voluntary mental health admissions for the purpose of revoking or approving a concealed carry license)

Hawaii response Yes to Questions 1-5, but noted on Question 1 (Does your state issue a Concealed Carry license?) that it is at the discretion of the Chief of Police and none have been issued since the early 1990's.

 

Also interesting to note that the Hawaii survey request was sent to Honolulu Police Department, not the State of Hawaii.