prior military hours credited question

[Ferginalaska]

I have a question. I was in the Air force many years ago as Security Police. My discharge was a General Under Honorable. Will I still be eligible for the 8 hour credit? I currently have an Arizona conceal license and they gave me credit.

 

thanks

[Stevepk]

It should, do you have your DD214? But it all depends on your instructor. Mine did not honor much of anything but his pricing for the 16 hours was lower than most and he is retired State Cop.

 

And more training is always better

[kwc]

Ferginalaska,

 

The wording in the administrative code that grants prior military credit for 8 hours of training uses the phrase, "Active, Retired or Honorably Discharged member of the United States Armed Forces."

 

The top category of discharge is "Honorable," with the next one down being "General, Under Honorable Conditions." You are undoubtedly aware that a General discharge limits some benefits otherwise extended to those with an Honorable discharge.

 

I truly don't know if the Illinois State Police intended to treat a General discharge as "Honorable" for the purposes of granting training credit. Terms are often thrown around loosely without understanding the nuances of their meanings. On the surface "Honorably" and "Honorable" are interchangeable, which unfortunately does not work in your favor.

 

I'll send an inquiry to the ISP training section to see if they can confirm this either way.

 

All the best,

kwc

[Ferginalaska]

Thanks, I appreciate that. I'm sure they didn't consider this when they wrote the legislation. It'll be interesting to see what they say. I certainly received a lot of firearms training as an SP but if I have to take 16 hours of additional training so be it.

[JK Guns and Ammo]

I just completed my CCW classes last month and i did receive 8 hr credit with my DD214 Honorable Discchage

[spec5]

I just completed my CCW classes last month and i did receive 8 hr credit with my DD214 Honorable Discharge

That is correct and you should. OP had a different question however.

[3ddiver]

When I asked the ISP about a general discharge that one of our students had I was told that it must say honorable dischatge.

[wtr100]

When I asked the ISP about a general discharge that one of our students had I was told that it must say honorable dischatge.

 

What he said

[GWBH]

It should, do you have your DD214? But it all depends on your instructor. Mine did not honor much of anything but his pricing for the 16 hours was lower than most and he is retired State Cop.

 

And more training is always better

Retired State Cop? So what?

I was under the impression that the requirements for a license and allowances for military service was in the legislation and not up to the "opinion" of an instructor.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong...

[wtr100]

 

It should, do you have your DD214? But it all depends on your instructor. Mine did not honor much of anything but his pricing for the 16 hours was lower than most and he is retired State Cop.

 

And more training is always better

Retired State Cop? So what?

I was under the impression that the requirements for a license and allowances for military service was in the legislation and not up to the "opinion" of an instructor.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong...

 

 

an instructor might / should refuse to let a student into class or to sigh a certificate w/o pre-requisites ie honorable discharge

 

if an instructor incorrectly allowed a 'General under Honorable Circumstances' the ISP might catch it and kick it back

[Glock23]

 

 

 

 

It should, do you have your DD214? But it all depends on your instructor. Mine did not honor much of anything but his pricing for the 16 hours was lower than most and he is retired State Cop.

And more training is always better

 

 

Retired State Cop? So what?

I was under the impression that the requirements for a license and allowances for military service was in the legislation and not up to the "opinion" of an instructor.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong...

 

 

 

 

an instructor might / should refuse to let a student into class or to sigh a certificate w/o pre-requisites ie honorable discharge

if an instructor incorrectly allowed a 'General under Honorable Circumstances' the ISP might catch it and kick it back

There's also no requirement that mandate that an instructor offer 8 hour classes (providing credit for Basic Pistol, DD214, etc) or 12 hour classes (providing credit for an out of state permit, Hunter's safety, etc.)

 

If an instructor wants to teach only full 16 hour classes, he is well within his rights to do so.

[wtr100]

 

 

 

 

It should, do you have your DD214? But it all depends on your instructor. Mine did not honor much of anything but his pricing for the 16 hours was lower than most and he is retired State Cop.

And more training is always better

 

 

Retired State Cop? So what?

I was under the impression that the requirements for a license and allowances for military service was in the legislation and not up to the "opinion" of an instructor.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong...

 

 

 

 

an instructor might / should refuse to let a student into class or to sigh a certificate w/o pre-requisites ie honorable discharge

if an instructor incorrectly allowed a 'General under Honorable Circumstances' the ISP might catch it and kick it back

There's also no requirement that mandate that an instructor offer 8 hour classes (providing credit for Basic Pistol, DD214, etc) or 12 hour classes (providing credit for an out of state permit, Hunter's safety, etc.)

 

If an instructor wants to teach only full 16 hour classes, he is well within his rights to do so.

 

 

another good point

[GWBH]

I stand corrected!
thanks gentlemen!

[kwc]

I suspect the answer from ISP may be fluid depending upon the person giving it, but today I received a response from the Instructor/Curriculum Section indicating that a "General, Under Honorable Conditions" DOES qualify for 8 hours of credit.

If your instructor has concerns about this, recommend he or she contact the ISP Instructor/Curriculum Section directly for confirmation.

My training partner received a similar inquiry last week so the OP's question is timely. I'll share this with my training partner as well.

Email exchange is posted below. (I don't know if the instructor email address is intended for public distribution so out of courtesy I've masked it and my own personal email address.)

_____________________________
From: [masked]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 8:57 AM
Subject: Re: [External] Student Training Credit - Military Service
To: [masked]

Yes, General, Under Honorable Conditions would qualify for the 8hr prior military credit. Thank you

Illinois State Police
Concealed Carry Firearms
Instructor/Curriculum Section
801 S Seventh Street, Suite 400-M
Springfield, IL 62703

-----

From: kwc
To: [masked]
Date: 09/24/2016 03:36 PM
Subject: [External] Student Training Credit - Military Service

Dear sir or ma'am,

As a CCL instructor I've been asked to grant 8 hours of credit toward the 16-hour CCL training requirement to a prospective student who was discharged from the U.S. Armed Forces with a "General, Under Honorable Conditions" categorization. This is listed on his DD214.

According to the Administrative Rules, 8 hours of credit may be granted to an "Active, Retired or Honorably Discharged member of the United States Armed Forces."

Is the intent of this provision to grant credit only to members who were discharged with an "Honorable" discharge, or does a "General" discharge qualify? In case you aren't aware, there are five categorizations, with the top one being the best type. (I wouldn't expect the bottom three to meet the standard.)

1. Honorable
2. General, Under Honorable Conditions
3. Other than honorable
4. Bad conduct discharge
5. Dishonorable discharge


Thank you,
kwc

[kwc]

Well, well. The "Concealed Carry Unit" help desk responded independently from the Instructor/Curriculum Section. They stated "It must be an Honorable Discharge."

 

Sweet. One section answers differently than the other. I've asked again for them to resolve this difference and give a final answer.

 

Safest bet is to take the full 16 hours, at least until we can get a "final answer." It would be very frustrating, given the ISP's inconsistency, for an applicant to submit an application and have it rejected due to inadequate training. That could add weeks to the turnaround.

[Indigo]

KWC - What's the difference between Honorable and General Under Honorable Conditions? I thought Honorable was that you didn't mess up badly prior to completing your enlistment, and that General was used in those cases that the enlistment term was not completed, but the person was discharged for any number of reasons, like "convenience of the government", and "hardship". If my understanding is correct, then if ISP refuses to honor the GUHC category, it would seem to be an arbitrary denial.

[Monty80]

General under honorable is usually reserved for those that are being kicked out of the military for misconduct and don't finish their enlistment.

[wtr100]

Side bar - do students still scan and send training certs (NRA) and DD-214? Honestly don't remeber

[kwc]

Indigo,

 

An Honorable discharge means that the members completed their tours of duty and their performance and personal conduct met or exceeded all standards. Under some circumstances, a full term of service doesn't need to be completed to obtain an Honorable discharge, as long as the discharge wasn't driven by misconduct. They are eligible for all veterans' benefits, including disability compensation and the GI bill (for educational benefits).

 

A "General, Under Honorable Conditions" discharge occurs when a service member's conduct and/or performance weren't acceptable enough to earn an Honorable discharge. Usually minor misconduct or nonjudicial punishment (e.g. an Article 15 given under the Uniform Code of Military Justice) prompt this type of discharge. Most VA benefits remain intact but educational benefits do not.

 

It can be frustrating for a young Airman, Soldier, or Marine who enters the service right out of high school, makes a few errors in judgment or gets caught up with the wrong crowd, and ends up with a General discharge that essentially will remain on the DD214 forever. (It's hard to upgrade a discharge.). Often an Article 15 is related to something that doesn't comply with military standards--but would not be deemed illegal in general society. From what I've witnessed, most of these folks learned a difficult lesson through their service and end up with a fresh and healthy perspective once they grow in maturity through life after military service.

[Indigo]

Makes sense to me. What doesn't make sense is the IL distinction between the two. If the rationale behind giving training credit for military experience is that the applicant already had the 1st 8 hours material covered by military training, then I fail to see any logical premise for making a distinction between the types of discharges. If you had the training, then you had the training. The type of discharge is irrelevant to whether they had the training, and should be irrelevant entirely. I'd like to know how they justify the credit/no credit criteria.

[3ddiver]

Side bar - do students still scan and send training certs (NRA) and DD-214? Honestly don't remeber

Students supply the ISP with a copy of their Illinois certificate. They no longer have to upload everything, that is now the sole responsibility of the instructor to maintain.

[GWBH]

 

Side bar - do students still scan and send training certs (NRA) and DD-214? Honestly don't remeber

Students supply the ISP with a copy of their Illinois certificate. They no longer have to upload everything, that is now the sole responsibility of the instructor to maintain.

 

Would that apply to a renewal of the "permit" as well?

[kwc]

Since the ask_ccl help desk for the Concealed Carry Unit gave a different answer than the Instructor/Curriculum Section, I asked them both to get together and give the "right" answer. They did, and the help desk conceded that the Instructor/Curriculum Section's response was correct.

 

The final answer: Both "Honorable" and "General, Under Honorable Conditions" discharges from the Armed Forces, as listed on a DD214, DO COUNT toward the 8-hour CCL training credit given for "Honorably Discharged" members.

From: kwc <email address redacted>

To:<ask_ccl@isp.state.il.us>

Date: 09/29/2016 06:49 PM

Subject: Re: [External] Student Training Credit - Military Service

 

You gave different responses. The Instructor/Curriculum Section says a "General, Under Honorable Conditions" discharge counts as "Honorably discharged." Your ask_ccl help desk said only an "Honorable" discharge counts.

 

We want to meet the intent of the code and ensure our student qualifies. Can you get together and provide a consistent and accurate answer?

 

Thank you,

kwc

 

-----

 

From: ask_ccl@isp.state.il.us

Sent: Friday, September 30, 2016 10:54 AM

Subject: Re: [External] Student Training Credit - Military Service

To: kwc <email address redacted>

 

I have confirmed that "general under honorable conditions" can be counted as 8 hours of credit towards ILCCL, just as "honorably discharge" is.

 

Sorry for the confusion.

 

Respectfully,

Illinois State Police

Firearms Services Bureau

Concealed Carry Unit

 

[67vtx1800]

It should, do you have your DD214? But it all depends on your instructor. Mine did not honor much of anything but his pricing for the 16 hours was lower than most and he is retired State Cop.

And more training is always better

 

Your instructor made you take 16 hrs? Or just pay. Both suck, but I would walk if forced to take all 16. This whole license game is a mess.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[67vtx1800]

It should, do you have your DD214? But it all depends on your instructor. Mine did not honor much of anything but his pricing for the 16 hours was lower than most and he is retired State Cop.

And more training is always better

 

Your instructor made you take 16 hrs? Or just pay for 16? Both suck, but I would walk if forced to take all 16. This whole license game is a mess.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk