heckler40 Posted February 26, 2015 at 02:40 PM Posted February 26, 2015 at 02:40 PM I sent Lombard chief a packet containing copy of form 1, copy of C&R, and copy of Illinois law pertaining to SBR. He said he'd take a look and let me know. Been almost 3 weeks and have not heard back. Probably gonna contact him tomorrow to see where he stands. They are super busy...you have to get in front of him. Call his admin (call the main non-emergency number, ask for his admin) and ask to schedule 60 minutes with him regarding ATF form 5320.1. Bring all your docs ready to rock and be prepared to explain.
DocFaberliss Posted February 26, 2015 at 07:29 PM Posted February 26, 2015 at 07:29 PM It's only for the C&R requirement. That's the reason you can only file as an LLC to avoid sign offs, prints and photos. When and if silencer become legal in IL you can just own them, no C&R requirement. So you can use a trust, back when I lived in IL I transfered a pen gun to my trust. I used that same trust for all my nfa weapons now that I live in missouri.Well that's fantastic news. It would be great if the only stuff I had to leave out of state was my registered lowers. Although getting threaded barrels will be a costly PITA...
Tvandermyde Posted February 27, 2015 at 03:38 AM Posted February 27, 2015 at 03:38 AM So, I'd have to have an LLC, and then apply for an FFL, in order to have the NFA items (silencer, et cetera) registered to it, and then have the other people I want to be able to use the NFA items as principles of the LLC? That's so stupidly complicated, you'd think that Illinois doesn't want people to have NFA items, or something. Ah -- NO you are making it much more complicated than what it is. in order to have an SBR, you need to have a C&R license. then apply with a form 1 to build it.
Jt.kline Posted February 27, 2015 at 02:58 PM Posted February 27, 2015 at 02:58 PM So, I'd have to have an LLC, and then apply for an FFL, in order to have the NFA items (silencer, et cetera) registered to it, and then have the other people I want to be able to use the NFA items as principles of the LLC? That's so stupidly complicated, you'd think that Illinois doesn't want people to have NFA items, or something. Ah -- NO you are making it much more complicated than what it is. in order to have an SBR, you need to have a C&R license. then apply with a form 1 to build it.. You to have get an LLC, then apply for a C&R FFL under that LLC, which will allow you to register an SBR on a form 1 as an entity. No CLEO sign off, prints or photos. You cant own silencers in IL currently so even with a C&R under and LLC you Wouldn't be able to. It simple, apply for C&R under your LLC, once you get your C&R FFL, efile a form 1 under that LLC to make an SBR.
Jt.kline Posted February 27, 2015 at 03:10 PM Posted February 27, 2015 at 03:10 PM "This form is filed to obtain permission from ATF to make an NFA firearm. To file this form electronically, the maker must be a legal entity, such as a corporation or trust, where fingerprints, photographs, or the Law Enforcement Certification are not required, or a State or local government agency." This straight from the ATF eform a site when your filling out the form 1
Jt.kline Posted February 27, 2015 at 03:14 PM Posted February 27, 2015 at 03:14 PM The LLC option is for those that can not obtain a sign off fromA CLEO.
heckler40 Posted February 27, 2015 at 10:44 PM Posted February 27, 2015 at 10:44 PM The LLC option is for those that can not obtain a sign off fromA CLEO. I haven't done this, but now you have to show that you are a legitimate business with the IRS and state (does the ATF care if you are using your FFL03?). If you do, then it's not an issue. If firearms are your hobby, you are not going to like this route.
Jt.kline Posted February 28, 2015 at 03:02 AM Posted February 28, 2015 at 03:02 AM Negative you don't have to conduct buisness selling firearms. Your just simply using your LLC to obtain a C&R. Don't believe me call the atf and get clarification. I know they will tell you that it's ok. Say you have a tree buisness you can use your Tree buisness to obtain a C&R, then register an SBR on form 1. When you MAKE an NFA weapon its for your personal use, you can sell it but your intentions when making it is for your use not to sell. When it comes to federal and state taxes you have to still pay them and dues if it applies. That is the downside on LLC. Before the C&R requirement went away in missouri that how folk registered nfa weapons to avoid CLEO, prints and photos.
Jt.kline Posted February 28, 2015 at 03:04 AM Posted February 28, 2015 at 03:04 AM Anyone can start an LLC there is no law that says you have to sell anything or provide a service to obtain one.
heckler40 Posted February 28, 2015 at 01:12 PM Posted February 28, 2015 at 01:12 PM Negative you don't have to conduct buisness selling firearms. Your just simply using your LLC to obtain a C&R. Don't believe me call the atf and get clarification. I know they will tell you that it's ok. Say you have a tree buisness you can use your Tree buisness to obtain a C&R, then register an SBR on form 1. When you MAKE an NFA weapon its for your personal use, you can sell it but your intentions when making it is for your use not to sell. When it comes to federal and state taxes you have to still pay them and dues if it applies. That is the downside on LLC. Before the C&R requirement went away in missouri that how folk registered nfa weapons to avoid CLEO, prints and photos. If you reread my response, I stated you need to have a legitimate business...not necessarily a legit business selling firearms. Also, my response was from the standpoint of the fed and state government. For example, you will have to pay monthly state unemployment tax, file monthly state unemployment forms, pay monthly sales tax collected, pay monthly state income tax, pay monthly federal income tax, file monthly federal income tax forms, etc etc. If you do not make a profit in 3 years your LLC will be involuntarily dissolved as this will be considered a "hobby" not a business. Just wanted to add some context to your post as you make it seem very easy. I suspect most people do not own their own legitimate business and may find this option unreasonable as well as not realistic.
Jt.kline Posted February 28, 2015 at 07:21 PM Posted February 28, 2015 at 07:21 PM That is the down sides to the LLC it has more up keep, but it is a viable option for those that can not obtain a CLEO sign off. Iv never set up an LLC but the guys I know that have them don't really have much of a problem with them and have told me it's not hard to set one up. My stand point is that it's an option.The guys I know with LLCs do not have a buisness license, and conduct no kind of buisness at all, the LLC doesn't dissolve because they pay the yearly fees. No taxes because they make know money from the LLC. Like said before there is now law that says you have to make a profit.
Jt.kline Posted February 28, 2015 at 07:38 PM Posted February 28, 2015 at 07:38 PM Their LLC is specially for holding NFA weapons, and they pay none of what your stated above. Now I'm sure state laws are differnet so it's up to who ever wants to use the LLC option to research on it.
heckler40 Posted March 1, 2015 at 06:05 PM Posted March 1, 2015 at 06:05 PM If you organize as a LLC, that is a for profit endeavor, not your hobby of collecting certain firearms. All I am doing here is offering anyone reading this to do more research because it's not as easy as you think. And, now you will have the additional risk of having the IRS involved. And, just because 1 person gets away with it, doesn't mean it's what is right for everyone else. Personally, since I have experience with the IRS, accountants and lawyers, I would never consider that option. Anyone considering it should get professional advice from a real accountant... I'll leave this here for your reading pleasure. http://www.irs.gov/uac/Is-Your-Hobby-a-For-Profit-Endeavor%3F
Jt.kline Posted March 1, 2015 at 10:35 PM Posted March 1, 2015 at 10:35 PM If you research on LLC and NFA ownership you will see that all of what I said is true. That is the downside to an LLC, you have more up keep. There are plenty of people that organized an LLC just to obtain NFA weapons and make no profit. but I did not give anyone advise, just a viable option to own NFa weapons. I firmly agree that people should seek legal advise on LLCs, it goes hand in hand that people should contact a lawyer when forming a trust.
armadroid Posted March 2, 2015 at 05:58 PM Posted March 2, 2015 at 05:58 PM If you organize as a LLC, that is a for profit endeavor, not your hobby of collecting certain firearms. All I am doing here is offering anyone reading this to do more research because it's not as easy as you think. And, now you will have the additional risk of having the IRS involved. And, just because 1 person gets away with it, doesn't mean it's what is right for everyone else. Personally, since I have experience with the IRS, accountants and lawyers, I would never consider that option. Anyone considering it should get professional advice from a real accountant... I'll leave this here for your reading pleasure. http://www.irs.gov/uac/Is-Your-Hobby-a-For-Profit-Endeavor%3Fcan you not be a business who makes no profit?
Elmer Fudd Posted March 2, 2015 at 05:59 PM Posted March 2, 2015 at 05:59 PM The LLC does NOT have to show a profit in three out of five years, assuming that the LLC hasn't made what is called a "check the box" election to be treated as an S Corporation since only S Corporations and individuals are subject to 26 USC 183 which states: (a) General ruleIn the case of an activity engaged in by an individual or an S corporation, if such activity is not engaged in for profit, no deduction attributable to such activity shall be allowed under this chapter except as provided in this section.( Deductions allowableIn the case of an activity not engaged in for profit to which subsection (a) applies, there shall be allowed—(1) the deductions which would be allowable under this chapter for the taxable year without regard to whether or not such activity is engaged in for profit, and(2) a deduction equal to the amount of the deductions which would be allowable under this chapter for the taxable year only if such activity were engaged in for profit, but only to the extent that the gross income derived from such activity for the taxable year exceeds the deductions allowable by reason of paragraph (1).© Activity not engaged in for profit definedFor purposes of this section, the term “activity not engaged in for profit” means any activity other than one with respect to which deductions are allowable for the taxable year under section 162 or under paragraph (1) or (2) of section 212. How do I know this....well this stuff is what I do for a living. I have dealt with IRS on at least a half dozen LLC's that were used for the purpose and every single one of them hasn't had an audit adjustment sustained. However, I don't engage in advising people over the internet, the only thing I have to sell is my time and I am certainly NOT seeking to do that here. I would offer the suggestion that anyone that attempts to navigate through this stuff without competent professional advice is playing with fire. I would add that a fair number of accountants and MOST lawyers don't have a sufficient understanding of the intricacies of limited liabilty company tax rules to be able to navigate through these provisions very well. If it were me and I was going to retain someone, I would ask some hard questions with regard to the specific skills and competence of the person I was going to retain. The reality is that most general practice attorneys know almost nothing about taxes. Invest in good advice....it will serve you well. Might also be worth noting that anyone that puts themselves out there as an accountant or a tax preparer ought be asked if they are a CPA....neither of the first two even require a high school diploma. It takes a graduate degree to even sit for the CPA exam.
Rieger Posted March 5, 2015 at 06:29 PM Posted March 5, 2015 at 06:29 PM So I have been in contact with Lombard Police chief and at this point I am cautiously optimistic that he will sign off on my ATF Form 1. He said he needed to check my record first. I have no record except for a handful of speeding tickets over the last 25 yrs. Still waiting for my C&R FFL to arrive. I'll post the end result on here at some point.
gtguard Posted March 6, 2015 at 06:52 PM Posted March 6, 2015 at 06:52 PM Ok, so I spoke with both the FFL and NFA branch. Both were definitely confused about Illinois but the one thing that was clear was that trusts can't own a C&R. But they did mention that you can file under the trust but give your individual C&R number because a member of a trust can have a C&R. Has anybody tried this out yet? I am really thinking of trying it out and seeing how it goes.
Jt.kline Posted March 7, 2015 at 02:47 PM Posted March 7, 2015 at 02:47 PM Ok, so I spoke with both the FFL and NFA branch. Both were definitely confused about Illinois but the one thing that was clear was that trusts can't own a C&R. But they did mention that you can file under the trust but give your individual C&R number because a member of a trust can have a C&R. Has anybody tried this out yet? I am really thinking of trying it out and seeing how it goes.When missouri had the C&R requirement there are guys that got approved using a trust and put the C&R license number on the form4 or form 1's. The ATF stopped appoving those types of app because trust can own a C&R. Which seems to be the same situation. I'm gonna imagine you didn't talk to an examiner? But you can try it, it could slip through and get approved but who knows. It would be worth a shot to me, gun trust are pretty inexpensive. Also the way it's looking for you guys in IL is that you might get the opportunity to own silencers in the near future so I think it would be a good Idea to start a trust. That way when the law does take effect you can submit an application fairly quickly.
Jt.kline Posted March 7, 2015 at 11:00 PM Posted March 7, 2015 at 11:00 PM You guys can only hope. I see illinois getting more NFA friendly. But I think it will be a while before they legalize MGs and DDs
Rieger Posted March 10, 2015 at 09:11 PM Posted March 10, 2015 at 09:11 PM Just an update. Got an email from my Lombard (DuPage County) police chief. He said he would sign my ATF Form 1 once I have my C&R FFL. Guess I 'checked out' ok. Getting closer...
X Ring Posted March 13, 2015 at 07:01 PM Posted March 13, 2015 at 07:01 PM I have meeting with a bunhc of law enforcement. If he is there, I will talk to him, and I will be talking to the SA as well. Todd, any update on the new Kane County Sheriff? What about the Saint Charles police chief?Thanks, Mike Todd, I thought I had received a reply from you about the New Kane County Sheriff, but I can't find it now. Can you confirm that you have had a meeting with him and that he is now willing to sign off on Form 1's. Thanks for all the hard work that you've done, I/we really appreciate it.Mike
StevieJ309 Posted March 13, 2015 at 10:47 PM Posted March 13, 2015 at 10:47 PM What are the chances of introducing "Shall Sign" legislation? Being at the mercy of your CLEO in a place like Illinois kind of sucks.
RacerDave6 Posted March 13, 2015 at 11:12 PM Posted March 13, 2015 at 11:12 PM What are the chances of introducing "Shall Sign" legislation? Being at the mercy of your CLEO in a place like Illinois kind of sucks.Slim to none. Washington is worse than IL at trying to fix gun law.
Rieger Posted March 16, 2015 at 02:18 AM Posted March 16, 2015 at 02:18 AM Had a question about filling out ATF form 1. In box #8 it asks for "name and title of authorized official". Those of you going through this process, how did you fill in blank #8? Not sure who they are asking for. There is a separate area on form for my CLEO to sign. Thanks in advance.
Tvandermyde Posted March 16, 2015 at 03:25 PM Posted March 16, 2015 at 03:25 PM I have meeting with a bunhc of law enforcement. If he is there, I will talk to him, and I will be talking to the SA as well. Todd, any update on the new Kane County Sheriff? What about the Saint Charles police chief?Thanks, Mike Todd, I thought I had received a reply from you about the New Kane County Sheriff, but I can't find it now. Can you confirm that you have had a meeting with him and that he is now willing to sign off on Form 1's. Thanks for all the hard work that you've done, I/we really appreciate it.Mike yes I did. print everything out, call and ask for an appointment.
Jt.kline Posted March 16, 2015 at 08:42 PM Posted March 16, 2015 at 08:42 PM Had a question about filling out ATF form 1. In box #8 it asks for "name and title of authorized official". Those of you going through this process, how did you fill in blank #8? Not sure who they are asking for. There is a separate area on form for my CLEO to sign. Thanks in advance. Just put your full legal name in the box if your applying as and individual. For example Joe D. Doe.
X Ring Posted March 19, 2015 at 08:23 PM Posted March 19, 2015 at 08:23 PM I just dropped off my Form 1's at the Kane County Sheriff's Office. I had called earlier to see if I needed to make an appointment, and his Executive Assistant (Mitzi) said to just drop them off at the Sheriff's Office and that I needed to include my contact info. She said that after they were signed that they would mail the forms back to me. I will update this when I receive the signed forms back.
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