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People denied for court ordered treatment----Read this!


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#61 IronSam

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 02:56 PM

It would still require a diagnosis of Alcoholism and a Court order for treatment of such to be disqualified under the Law if taken literally.

#62 Mack

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 03:09 PM

Typically DUI education or treatment for anything other than level III is for either inappropriate use of alcohol or substances or abuse of alcohol or substances. Level III is reserved for those addicted to alcohol or drugs - i.e. Alcoholic. There are possibly a very few individuals who are level III for simply having 3 DUI's as the rules regarding DUI evaluation automatically require that someone with 3 DUI's (there may be a time element also) be placed in the level III classification. However 99.9 percent of the people found to be level III are diagnosed as Substance or Alcohol Dependent.  I did DUI evaluations for many years as a part of my job and the rules do not seem to have changed significantly in recent years. Therefore, anyone who is not placed at level III - barring a change in status during treatment - are not by definition Alcoholic or Substance Dependent.

 

Hope this may help someone. It should not be that hard for ISP to contact DASA for verification that anything below level III is not Alcoholism or Substance Dependence Treatment.



#63 IronSam

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 03:10 PM

Sorry Slayer, didn't see your previous post with the DHS link. The JCAR is where this stuff is administered. Still haven't found the Illniois Code, but I think there's enough here to show that this is mandated by Law as an Evaluation and Prevention tool and not Court Ordered Treatment for Alcoholism that the ISP is clinging to.

#64 IronSam

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 03:17 PM

Thanks Mack, good to know. I would not have applied if the Law stated ONE arrest, and I never conceived that they would use the Education as they are. It's simply not in the Law. A fair assumption that the ISP is certainly well versed in DUI. Even a second arrest is a disqualifier. I've seen some posts that indicate they are looking back beyond 5 years and using that as grounds for LEO Objections. Mine is Level 2 Moderate for declining the BAC.

Edited by IronSam, 16 April 2014 - 03:18 PM.


#65 slayer38115

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 03:24 PM

I think we're coming up with the right information.  The big question will be how to prove these items to the ISP in appeals.



#66 IronSam

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 03:37 PM

If you were Denied, a letter will be forthcoming. Post it if you don't mind. Mine initially stated that it could be moved from Denied to Approved upon final review. You may have to send in copies of your Evaluation, Certificates of Completion and Court order. Hopefully this issue will be reconciled with the Law by then. Don't go with anything verbal. Wait to see what your letter says, in detail.

Edited by IronSam, 16 April 2014 - 03:38 PM.


#67 slayer38115

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 03:48 PM

I didn't get a denial when they called me today.  I checked my status on the website and it showed denied along with the reason why, but no more detail than that.  I'll post it when I get it.



#68 IronSam

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 04:40 PM

Curios of the reason, ver batum. Mine was denied 3/13 the reason "has been in residential or court ordered treatment for alcohol or drugs in the past 5 years". The Law states alchoholism as the prohibitor. Wondering if they've changed the language. Big difference. An asprin for a hangover is treatment for alcohol.

 

My letter came within a week of the application page update.


Edited by IronSam, 16 April 2014 - 04:43 PM.


#69 slayer38115

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 04:49 PM

Has been in residential or court-ordered treatment for alcohol or drugs in the past 5 years

 

That's all it says when I check my application status online



#70 IronSam

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 04:57 PM

I mailed my documentation with a letter of response before the Admin Review form was available. Sent it all out again yesterday with the form, registered. The letter will give more details. Sit tight, you have some time. I got two more letters a week later, both dated March 19. One stated and objection was filed and the board needs 30 days. The other stated the board found me eligible and ISP would resume processing my App but the dashboard is unchanged. You might get similar follow ups. I'm starting to think this is organized chaos.



#71 slayer38115

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 07:55 AM

I found another piece of documentation that may help on this issue.  I have the court order of sentencing issued by the court.  It clearly states remedial education and counseling.  Not a single word on the court order about "treatment".

 

I also found paperwork from a licensed addictive care center that did an evaluation for me that states I do not meet criteria under DSM IV, which is criteria set by the American Psychiatric Association, for treatment.  In other words, they wouldn't treat me for substance abuse/dependency disorder even if I wanted it.


Edited by slayer38115, 18 April 2014 - 08:09 AM.


#72 slayer38115

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 05:40 PM

IronSam,

 

You asked me to post my denial letter when I received it.  The letter came today, but I left town for work so I can't post it.  All it says for the reason of denial is exactly what the law states for treatment and then informs me of my appeal rights. I just emailed my appeal letter and supporting documentation.  We'll see what happens next


Edited by slayer38115, 21 April 2014 - 05:41 PM.


#73 Elmer Fudd

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 05:45 PM

Anyone want to make a bet that under their definitions "counseling = treatment"?



#74 slayer38115

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 06:36 PM

I'm pretty sure that's what the first person processing the application is thinking.  I looked up the definition of counseling and it's not the same as treatment, even considered putting it in my appeal but didn't.  If they do consider them to be the same then they will certainly deny anyone with a DUI.  Hopefully the review board is smarter than that.  If I'm reading IronSam's post correctly, the review board did overturn his denial for the same reason so I have hope.



#75 Elmer Fudd

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 06:48 PM

I'm pretty sure that's what the first person processing the application is thinking.  I looked up the definition of counseling and it's not the same as treatment, even considered putting it in my appeal but didn't.  If they do consider them to be the same then they will certainly deny anyone with a DUI.  Hopefully the review board is smarter than that.  If I'm reading IronSam's post correctly, the review board did overturn his denial for the same reason so I have hope.

I am NOT disagreeing...just shaking my head and gasping....up hill all the way.



#76 Dr. Rat

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 05:20 AM

I'm pretty sure that's what the first person processing the application is thinking.  I looked up the definition of counseling and it's not the same as treatment, even considered putting it in my appeal but didn't.  If they do consider them to be the same then they will certainly deny anyone with a DUI.  Hopefully the review board is smarter than that.  If I'm reading IronSam's post correctly, the review board did overturn his denial for the same reason so I have hope.

 

The Board shouldn't see your case if you've been denied by the ISP. You have to appeal to the Director.



#77 IronSam

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 08:30 PM

Frustrating. The Law clearly says Treatment for Alcoholism, Detox or Drugs. They have access to our records. DUI Law requires an Evaluation by an approved agency. If it results in a diagnosis of Alcoholism, it would be within those records as they are compelled to report their finding to the Court and DHS. The burden may fall upon the applicant to submit Cerified copies of all relative records. In the case of DUI, the Court does not order the Evaluation but is merely charged under the same law to supervise its compliance. They are looking for a Denial loophole that doesn't even exist.