ISRA on the dodge

[cybermgk]

With half of the dealers, especially home-based dealers being wiped out because of the IL Gun Licensing Act, who's going to take all these person to person transfers paperwork? It will be interesting to see if brick & morter guys want a sudden rush of private transfer paperwork showing up on their doorstep. I could only speculate how many private transfers that took place in the last 2yrs. I don't understand why ISP won't accept these forms, it's their bcg check system.

Well see. If you can't find an FFL, the Bill (still not law until Pigstar drags his hoof across it and signs it) allows you to file it with the ISP, via some not yet created online mechanism. Isn't that lovely?

[ealcala31]

 

With half of the dealers, especially home-based dealers being wiped out because of the IL Gun Licensing Act, who's going to take all these person to person transfers paperwork? It will be interesting to see if brick & morter guys want a sudden rush of private transfer paperwork showing up on their doorstep. I could only speculate how many private transfers that took place in the last 2yrs. I don't understand why ISP won't accept these forms, it's their bcg check system.

 

Well see. If you can't find an FFL, the Bill (still not law until Pigstar drags his hoof across it and signs it) allows you to file it with the ISP, via some not yet created online mechanism. Isn't that lovely?

I'm putting $$$ that that is exactly what's going to happen. Many medium busy dealers are going to pass on this $h!t$how while the slow dealers will accept it, why not, a FREE $25. A good amount of people are prob going to have to wait at least 1yr b4 ISP creates this new system. I now understand why they call this place IL-ANNOY...

[crufflesmuth]

Shops that require the FOID for gatekeeping purposes are ingraining the perception of legitimacy of the thing. This is partially why we are in this position today. We have built the perception of FOID legitimacy over the last five decades because it is law and we, by nature, comply with the law. But, it was bad law. It was law that, originally, never really inflected pain or inconvenience originally and was tolerated. But, with the advent of the new socialist Democrats, we see why bad law can never be disregarded again. It was the pathway to incremental restrictions abetted by those who continue in their belief that the FOID was somehow good for us.

 

Regardless the past, the jury has returned and, on evidence, has found the ISRA guilty of collaboration with those who continue to believe that a civil right can be licensed and taxed. The organization has also been found guilty of arrogance in their belief that only they represent the higher power in all matters related to gun law. The penalty for their crimes is yet to be determined.

 

It's one thing for a gun shop/range to comply with state law (FOID to buy ammo/guns), it's quite another for that same shop/range, to go beyond the standard waiver and require things that are not legally required.

 

That is the real travesty. Most every gun range is guilty of it.

 

It's more laughable, when you realize it's the waiver you sign at gun ranges, and not the FOID/CCL itself, that gives the shop/range a legal defense - in the 100% impossible chance a prohibited person uses their facilities.

 

If gun owners in Illinois want better representation, and if the ISRA does not fit the bill anymore, it's up to Illinois gun owners to determine how/when that takes shape.

[soundguy]

 

I’m not sure I agree with the culpability of ranges re requiring a FOID to use a range.

I offer up this 2016 post at IC from Mr Vandermyde:

 

 

“ Posted 21 July 2016 - 12:12 PM

As the author of the law its simple:

 

an Illinois resident does not need a FOID to use a gun on a range or participate if a class if they are 1. under supervision of a FOID holder. 2. Eligible for a FOID -- meaning not prohibited under law.

 

There is no restriction on children or requirement that they be your own.

 

Non-residents it doesn't matter as they are FOID exempt.

 

Each range may have their own rules as to how they deal with this and since it's their range, it's their rules regardless of what the law says”

 

[Euler]

In today's mail:

...

HB 562 has passed both chambers. Yesterday, Wednesday June 16, HB 562 passed the Illinois House 75-40-1. The ISRA was neutral on this bill. There were two bills in the General Assembly, HB 562 and HB 1091. HB 562 wasn’t perfect, nothing in the General Assembly ever is. HB 1091 was absolutely terrible. Here are the links to the analysis of both bills: HB 562; HB 1091. Gun owners need to hear the truth and the truth is we were going to get one of these bills. I know many of you think we can just say “No”, but that isn’t how it works in real life and the Illinois General Assembly in particular.

 

The fact is that there are some good things in HB 562. The worst part of HB 562 is the private transfer provisions. That part of HB 562 does not go into effect until January 1, 2024. There is time to work on that section. If you listened to the closing remarks of Representative Denyse Stoneback in the Judiciary Committee hearing, she told everyone where the anti-gunners want to go, which includes mandatory fingerprints for FOID cards, increased fees on FOID cards, and only be able to apply for a FOID card at a police station. HB 1091 gave the anti-gun side two out of their three goals. HB 1091 had to be stopped. HB 562 stopped HB 1091.

 

Like it or not, the FOID card system is the law of the land. There are thousands of people waiting to get their new or renewed FOID cards. One of the short-term goals of the ISRA is to do what we can to get these FOID cards into the hands of law-abiding citizens. To not do so would make us complicit with the anti-gun side. The long term goal of the ISRA is to get rid of the FOID card.

...

[mrmagloo]

Cowards!

[Felixd]

Their neutrality means tacit approval. Their lack of disclosure means they suffer from arrogance. Their lack of communication means they suffer from hubris. In total it means the leadership of the ISRA has lost its relevance with Illinois gun owners. It’s time for a change.

[papa]

To not do so would make us complicit with the anti-gun side. The long term goal of the ISRA is to get rid of the FOID card.

 

You sure did pick a fine way to go about it . I call B. S.

[cls74]

They're obviously not wanting to see the pushback. While they sent out their Thursday bulletin, they have yet to post their link to it on their Facebook page as they normally do.

 

They are nothing more than elite politicians now: "You don't know what you want, we know what's best for you. Just shut up and deal with it."

[cls74]

To not do so would make us complicit with the anti-gun side. The long term goal of the ISRA is to get rid of the FOID card.

 

You sure did pick a fine way to go about it . I call B. S.

 

 

My first question(s) if they allowed comments would be....

 

And just how do you plan on going about this after throwing your weight behind enhancing its restricitions? Mandatory registration by the law abiding? Cosmetic and capacity bans?

[JDW]

ISR, who? Lol I'm officially no longer a member after their cowardly act on 562. My rep was one of the R,s who voted yes. He's not getting another nickel or vote from me. All I can do is respectfully let them know how I feel, and of course, vote at the voting booth and with my wallet.

 

Life goes on in ILL annoying, gang.

[JTHunter]

Just got off the phone with the ISRA. To sum up for conversation. "HB 1091 or 562 will pass today. HB 562 is less bad and doesn't take away as many rights, so we are staying neutral." My reply was that's like saying punch me in the face instead of the gut. Talked to then for about 15 minutes, bottom line they ISRA is defending and will continue to defend their neutral stance, saying they need a seat at the negotiating table. I told them in a negotiation each side gets something they want. Anti-gun advocates got stuff they wanted, pro 2a got nothing, but more onerous restrictions

HB1091 already did pass and is being held in the House because they lack the votes in the Senate. Even if the House were to remove the procedural hold, the Senate is gone and would not be able to take it up.

Mauserme - With the Senate out (for now), what are the possibilities that HB1091 would be dead for this session?

[mikew]

While they sent out their Thursday bulletin, they have yet to post their link to it on their Facebook page as they normally do.

That is incorrect.

[mauserme]

 

 

Just got off the phone with the ISRA. To sum up for conversation. "HB 1091 or 562 will pass today. HB 562 is less bad and doesn't take away as many rights, so we are staying neutral." My reply was that's like saying punch me in the face instead of the gut. Talked to then for about 15 minutes, bottom line they ISRA is defending and will continue to defend their neutral stance, saying they need a seat at the negotiating table. I told them in a negotiation each side gets something they want. Anti-gun advocates got stuff they wanted, pro 2a got nothing, but more onerous restrictions

HB1091 already did pass and is being held in the House because they lack the votes in the Senate. Even if the House were to remove the procedural hold, the Senate is gone and would not be able to take it up.

 

Mauserme - With the Senate out (for now), what are the possibilities that HB1091 would be dead for this session?

 

I don't think HB1091 is dead at all right now. It's true that they haven't had the Senate votes to pass a fingerprint mandate, but they have time to work on that to possibly bring it back in the veto session, without changing the vote threshold that they were already facing after 5/31. And the number of votes on HB562 may have encouraged them.

[milq]

I sent ISRA a well worded email without screaming at them or vulgarities earlier this week, but I did express profound disappointment. Apparently they removed me from the email list for the Thursday updates.

 

They’re getting pretty much roasted on the FB comments for the update.

[JDW]

Ouch!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[mab22]

From their Jan 16 2020 email.

 

At a gun show this weekend, one of our recruiters asked a man to join the ISRA. The man stated that he would rather buy a gun and also that $30 for a one-year membership was too much. Really, you would rather buy a gun but spend nothing on making sure you can keep it? The days of being a spectator in the battle to preserve our Second Amendment Rights are over. Join the ISRA today.

That statement I n their email spoke volumes to me.

To me that states that they have become irrelevant to people, that people don’t see them as being effective or worthy of $30 for a years membership. People are saying $30 is too much and what is someone really going to get out of it?

Yes, they have filed several law suits, I am not sure how effective they have been or what wins there have been in recent years.

[Black Flag]

I sent ISRA a well worded email without screaming at them or vulgarities earlier this week, but I did express profound disappointment. Apparently they removed me from the email list for the Thursday updates. They’re getting pretty much roasted on the FB comments for the update.

As bad as those comments may seem, word is they are deleting comments that seem worse.

[mikew]

The crying shame is that some of the lawsuits have been terribly effective. They are trying their hardest to dilute this effectiveness.

 

Yes, they have filed several law suits, I am not sure how effective they have been or what wins there have been in recent years.

[mab22]

 

The crying shame is that some of the lawsuits have been terribly effective. They are trying their hardest to dilute this effectiveness.

 

Yes, they have filed several law suits, I am not sure how effective they have been or what wins there have been in recent years.

 

Keeps the money coming in if people “think your fighting for them”.

Kinda like an Illinois politician, they hug you with one arm, and prepare to strike with a closed fist with the other arm.

[InterestedBystander]

I sent ISRA a well worded email without screaming at them or vulgarities earlier this week, but I did express profound disappointment. Apparently they removed me from the email list for the Thursday updates.

 

They’re getting pretty much roasted on the FB comments for the update.

I dont know if true, but I was told if you ever sent a Thu update to someone else, send it and dont forward it. If you forward and that recipient deletes the message, you are also removed from the list. Doesnt make sense but theres a lot of poorly designed stuff not really QA tested on the new web site they moved to.

[cope]

just remember without bad laws we have no need for grifters to file lawsuits and orgs like ISRA would be out of a job

 

if the supreme court ruled unanimously today that any law restricting 2A in any way shape or form was unconstitutional would you still donate to ISRA or NRA

 

ulterior motives can be quite powerful

[Plinkermostly]

What happened to: we will fight them on the beaches, we will fight them on the fields, we will fight . . . .

[cybermgk]

just remember without bad laws we have no need for grifters to file lawsuits and orgs like ISRA would be out of a job

 

if the supreme court ruled unanimously today that any law restricting 2A in any way shape or form was unconstitutional would you still donate to ISRA or NRA

 

ulterior motives can be quite powerful

To what the NRA USED to be, if they were once that again? Yes.

[Euler]

 

I sent ISRA a well worded email without screaming at them or vulgarities earlier this week, but I did express profound disappointment. Apparently they removed me from the email list for the Thursday updates.

...

I dont know if true, but I was told if you ever sent a Thu update to someone else, send it and dont forward it. If you forward and that recipient deletes the message, you are also removed from the list. Doesnt make sense but theres a lot of poorly designed stuff not really QA tested on the new web site they moved to.

 

If you send your email to someone else, it still has your "unsubscribe" link. If your recipient clicks it, that could do it.

[mikew]

 

I sent ISRA a well worded email without screaming at them or vulgarities earlier this week, but I did express profound disappointment. Apparently they removed me from the email list for the Thursday updates.

 

They’re getting pretty much roasted on the FB comments for the update.

I dont know if true, but I was told if you ever sent a Thu update to someone else, send it and dont forward it. If you forward and that recipient deletes the message, you are also removed from the list. Doesnt make sense but theres a lot of poorly designed stuff not really QA tested on the new web site they moved to.

 

 

The bulk email system in use now is independent of the website CMS system in use now, and they did not change at the same time.

 

in general, with any emails sent by a bulk email provider, it is a bad practice to forward the message directly from your email client/email web page/ what it is that you use to read all of your email.

This is especially true if:

1. you want to keep receiving those emails

2. the email contains controversial content.

 

well, why? Why is it a bad practice?

The email usually contains personalized links for you. Those links let the account owner know when you have clicked on a link.

One of the links, usually at the bottom, is for you to unsubscribe from the emails.

Depending on the provider, the link might result in a confirmation email being sent to you to complete the unsubscribe,

or it might not.

 

So forward too many emails to me about "tricycle rescue", "transgendered ethnic chess pieces",

or even just one i find annoying, and I might unsubscribe you, or try to.

 

If you edit the email to remove that link at the bottom, then you are usually safe.

 

Now a good bulk email provider would send a confirmation for unsubscribe.

And a good bulk email provider would also have a link at the top or at the bottom for

"forward this email to a friend", by clicking a link that goes to the service to send your friends

their own copy of the mail without jeopardizing your subscription, and may also include a sign up for your friends.

 

The bulk email provider in use by the ISRA now does not have those features and has its own list of big faults.

That email provider does have one or two nice features in its favor, as well.

 

Caveat:

I have not been on the ISRA's email list for over a year, but I know they have not changed providers in that time.

[mikew]

Apparently they removed me from the email list for the Thursday updates.

 

This is possible but not likely especially if you are a member.

 

However the bulk email provider in use has its own quirks and removes people on its own for a variety of criteria, most of which is outside of the control of the subscriber.

[quackersmacker]

Y'all need to get the hellouttathere!

 

Yikes! I will remain a member of this group because of friends and connections I've made, but BYE-BYE ISRA!

 

There are other states that are SO much more tolerable in terms of everything from guns to taxes to weather.

 

Just sayin'..............

[cybermgk]

Got this answer to my email to ISRA on HB562. This is the most verbosity I have seen

 

 

XXX,

 

The problem is you have not been told everything about the situation.

 

What people don’t understand is the Governor handed down an edict to the Democratic caucus. He was concerned that it appeared his administration wasn’t doing anything to stop the horrific violent crime rate in Illinois and most notably in Cook County & Chicago. He demanded that they pass either HB1091 or HB562 – one or the other without fail. We knew early on that one of those two bills was going to get passed and the Republicans don’t have enough votes to stop it.

 

The ISRA is a one issue organization, and we base our decisions on what is most appropriate in the long run. Our decisions are not based on animosity toward any group or individual but rather what is in the best interest of the Second Amendment rights of all Illinois firearm owners.

 

Given the political climate surrounding HB1091 and HB562 it was clear a decision had to be made on what would be the best course of action. Those who believe the ISRA should “draw a line in the sand” and say “no” to both bills, have no understanding of the mission of the ISRA – to foster the best possible environment for Illinois firearm owners. Taking a hardline and rejecting both bills simply means the anti-Second Amendment backers of those bills will do whatever they want and the ISRA will not have a seat at the table to try to get the most onerous elements of a bill removed and we did manage to accomplish a few good things.

 

Representative Denyse Stoneback (D-16^th District), a cosponsor of HB1091, was adamant about three onerous provisions:

 

1. It would require mandatory fingerprinting,
2. There would be an unspecified increase in the cost though rough calculations based on other aspects of the bill, it put the cost of a new FOID card at about $75, and
3. Applicants would be required to go to a police station to apply.

 

Other particularly undesirable aspects to HB1091 included the “clear and present danger” aspect expanded to include “any act” intended to cause or create a risk… It was dangerously vague with significant negative implications for Illinois firearm owners.

 

The bill would also ban the private sale of firearms with all transactions required to go through an FFL. There were no positive aspects to HB1091 and the ISRA took a negative position on the bill.

 

The controversy alleging the ISRA’s lack of support for Illinois firearm owners was focused on our neutral position on HB562. It was a very carefully considered position and it requires an understanding of the bill’s contents and the ISRA’s long term strategy.

 

One of the most naïve criticisms came from those individuals who either opined that there was no such thing as “backroom deals” or those who thought there should never be any kind of “backroom deals;” everything should be discussed publicly.

 

Otto von Bismarck, former chancellor of Germany, wrote, “The less people know about how sausages and laws are made, the better they’ll sleep at night.” Backroom deals are as old as government itself and an intrinsic thread in the fabric of law making. Backroom deals are essential when you are not the dominant party. Look at the positive points in HB562.

 

First, let us be clear, the ISRA objects to the very concept of a FOID card. The Second Amendment guarantees it is the right of the people to keep and bear arms, period. No FOID cards, no de facto poll tax, nothing that stands between law abiding citizens and acquiring and keeping firearms.

 

The fact is in Illinois we have such impediments and the ISRA’s long term strategy is to have the FOID card declared unconstitutional, but you do not just flip a switch and it goes away. So, the short-term strategy is to do whatever is possible to reduce the negative impact on Illinois firearm owners while implementing a strategy for the ultimate removal of the FOID card which brings us to HB562.

 

Literally hundreds of hours and many meetings were held discussing over a hundred different parts and combinations. In the end, those discussions produced a bill that had several positive elements.

 

1. The FOID card would automatically renew simultaneously with the CCL renewal.
2. Ultimately the FOID expiration would be eliminated.
3. The FOID and CCL would be consolidated into one card.
4. Ultimately an electronic version of the FOID/CCL would be developed.
5. A public defender would be added to the appeals board.
6. The change of address requirement would be eliminated.
7. No increase in the FOID fee.

 

There were a few other positive aspects but there were also a host of negative aspects the ISRA objected to:

 

1. Voluntary fingerprinting, changed from mandatory initially, but still objected to by the ISRA because fingerprinting should not be required to exercise a constitutional right.
2. It allowed for supervision and expungement of misdemeanor offenses if a person failed to identify where the transfer records were maintained by an FFL.
3. Person to person firearm transfer could either include a NICS at an FFL or through the person-to-person transfer using ISP FOID verification but also included the buyer providing a record of the transfer to an FFL within 10 days.
4. The seller of a firearm must save the record for 10 years.

 

A key aspect of items 3 & 4 is the effective date is January 1, 2024. Last year the ISRA filed a depravation of rights lawsuit in federal court over the FOID card. We began with four plaintiffs and within a month all four received their FOID cards in the mail. Clever trick but short sighted. It is a tactic frowned upon by the court and is not likely to work again. The litigation to eliminate the FOID card continues with new plaintiffs and with a far more friendly SCOTUS it is anticipated that the FOID card may very well be found unconstitutional prior to the implementation of HB562’s provision for person-to-person firearm transfers.

 

Given that either HB1091 or HB562 was going to be implemented, the ISRA took the position of objecting to HB1091 and remaining neutral on HB562. We did not want to endorse a bill that was overall anti-Second Amendment, yet we did not want to come out against it which might have increased public sentiment to stop HB562 and as a result see HB1091 approved. Clearly HB562 is the better of the choices and ISRA will continue with litigation to end the FOID card. Having said that, if the litigation is unsuccessful, HB562 will be far better to live with than HB1091.

 

What would you have had us do differently? If we objected to HB562 you’d have the far more unfriendly HB1091 now. Remember, it was definite that it would be one or the other and no way to stop it.

 

dal

[Plinkermostly]

(forget about it).