Gambit Posted December 11, 2024 at 01:07 PM Share Posted December 11, 2024 at 01:07 PM I am looking for a clear answer on who can perform a qualification for retired LEOSA officers. I spoke to IROCC and was basically told their instructors had the ILETSB instructor certification. I spoke to ISP about a Illinois certified firearms instructor and LEOSA no clear information, only they don’t do LEOSA certs. I see the state MTUs usually have a link to IROCC. IROCC states they are a non-profit organization, under the directions of ILETSB. SO I guess my long-winded question is what instructor certification, ILETSB, NRA, IL CCL, (Federal Government CRO/RSO), is needed to conduct a range qualification for a retired LEOSA both state and Federal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanishjames Posted December 11, 2024 at 08:44 PM Share Posted December 11, 2024 at 08:44 PM http://www.irocc.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richp Posted December 12, 2024 at 12:33 PM Share Posted December 12, 2024 at 12:33 PM To my knowledge, you can't go to an individual instructor for IROCC qualification. You have to pre-register with them and then they send you a list of dates and locations where a qualification shoot will be conducted. You then sign up in advance with the IROCC folks in Springfield for one that works for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambit Posted December 12, 2024 at 12:49 PM Author Share Posted December 12, 2024 at 12:49 PM SO, when you read the LEOSA Act. the only 2 items a retired LEO needs is a government issued ID, and a yearly range qualification. What I am looking for is specifically who can provide the qual. I have a lot of retired DOD retiree, how have their LEOSA IDs. all they are required under LEOSA is a annual qual, not a full blown IROCC or IL CCW process. I am look to see if anyone has experienced this issue. I spoke to IROCC who tells me they are non-for-profit, their instructors are mostly former LEO, with a ILETBS firearms certification. So, I assume is anyone who holds a ILETBS cert can perform the annual qual, would just have to issue a qualification card yearly. I also assume anyone who is able to conduct CCL in Illinois (Illinois Certified Firearms Instructor) would be able to conduct the qual. I Know lots of assuming, but I think as an IL CCL Instructor I could qual LEOSA officers? Has anyone qualified LEOSA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ealcala31 Posted December 12, 2024 at 01:30 PM Share Posted December 12, 2024 at 01:30 PM On 12/12/2024 at 6:49 AM, Gambit said: SO, when you read the LEOSA Act. the only 2 items a retired LEO needs is a government issued ID, and a yearly range qualification. What I am looking for is specifically who can provide the qual. I have a lot of retired DOD retiree, how have their LEOSA IDs. all they are required under LEOSA is a annual qual, not a full blown IROCC or IL CCW process. I am look to see if anyone has experienced this issue. I spoke to IROCC who tells me they are non-for-profit, their instructors are mostly former LEO, with a ILETBS firearms certification. So, I assume is anyone who holds a ILETBS cert can perform the annual qual, would just have to issue a qualification card yearly. I also assume anyone who is able to conduct CCL in Illinois (Illinois Certified Firearms Instructor) would be able to conduct the qual. I Know lots of assuming, but I think as an IL CCL Instructor I could qual LEOSA officers? Has anyone qualified LEOSA? You should call Krup with Spartan Tactical, he is/was a retired CPD and is a firearm instructor. I am sure if he doesn't do it, he could lead you in the right direction. He's also an FFL. He is active on FB if you want to send him a message. https://teamspartan.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambit Posted December 12, 2024 at 03:13 PM Author Share Posted December 12, 2024 at 03:13 PM On 12/12/2024 at 7:30 AM, ealcala31 said: You should call Krup with Spartan Tactical, he is/was a retired CPD and is a firearm instructor. I am sure if he doesn't do it, he could lead you in the right direction. He's also an FFL. He is active on FB if you want to send him a message. https://teamspartan.com/ Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richp Posted December 12, 2024 at 03:51 PM Share Posted December 12, 2024 at 03:51 PM I have qualified under the IROCC process ever since it was instituted. After qualification at one of their shoots (set up as I described earlier), the crew there sends your paperwork in to Springfield, and shortly thereafter you get a laminated card from the IROCC office indicating your status. There is an annual cost of $75 to qualify on one weapon type, and $100 for both revolver and autoloader. You have to requalify every year to maintain your status. As I understand it, few, if any states have this kind of bureaucracy attached to this law. But I will say that in my many contacts with them over the years, the IROCC folks have been friendly, responsive, and competent. If there is an alternative process involving independent instructors for individual qualification, I have never heard of it. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But if it did, sitting around the range with other folks year after year waiting to be called to the line, you'd think someone would have mentioned it. FWIW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambit Posted December 12, 2024 at 04:09 PM Author Share Posted December 12, 2024 at 04:09 PM On 12/12/2024 at 9:51 AM, richp said: I have qualified under the IROCC process ever since it was instituted. After qualification at one of their shoots (set up as I described earlier), the crew there sends your paperwork in to Springfield, and shortly thereafter you get a laminated card from the IROCC office indicating your status. There is an annual cost of $75 to qualify on one weapon type, and $100 for both revolver and autoloader. You have to requalify every year to maintain your status. As I understand it, few, if any states have this kind of bureaucracy attached to this law. But I will say that in my many contacts with them over the years, the IROCC folks have been friendly, responsive, and competent. If there is an alternative process involving independent instructors for individual qualification, I have never heard of it. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But if it did, sitting around the range with other folks year after year waiting to be called to the line, you'd think someone would have mentioned it. FWIW. That's what I am looking for an alternative to IROCC for LEOs like DOD, military etc. who only need a yearly qualification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Q Public Posted December 12, 2024 at 05:30 PM Share Posted December 12, 2024 at 05:30 PM (edited) There was a guy in town here, who did the class for retired officers. John Royster was his name, he has since passed, but he did them, for sure, as an individual. He was retired LEO. He might have just told them he was going to do a class on a certain date, and that was put on the list. I never asked about it. Edited December 12, 2024 at 05:34 PM by John Q Public Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambit Posted December 12, 2024 at 07:51 PM Author Share Posted December 12, 2024 at 07:51 PM This makes logical sense. But this is Illinois. I think any certified firearms instructor should be able to conduct an LEOSA annual qual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richp Posted December 12, 2024 at 07:55 PM Share Posted December 12, 2024 at 07:55 PM (edited) The state requires Illinois retired LE to use the IROCC process to qualify to carry under LEOSA. They have set up a system to do that on approved ranges, with approved personnel, and with issuance of official credentials. In my experience it works reasonably well -- or at least it has for the 10 years or so I've been using it. Like a lot of other things here, we sometimes have to adjust, and put up with stuff that we don't like or agree with. My gripe comes into focus when I write that check each year for $100, and realize that retirees in virtually every other state are free from this burden. Edited December 12, 2024 at 08:00 PM by richp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambit Posted December 12, 2024 at 08:10 PM Author Share Posted December 12, 2024 at 08:10 PM I might have found my answer any thoughts? Foley v. Godinez, 2016 IL App (1st) 151814, in part. Paragraph 7 "18 U.S.C. § 926C(d)(1) (2006). Or the individual can obtain two documents—a photo ID from his or her former agency stating that he or she was employed as a police officer or law enforcement officer (18 U.S.C. § 926C(d)(2)(A) (2006)) and a certification from the state or a certified firearms instructor stating that within the last year, he or she has met either the state’s active-duty standards for qualification in firearms training to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm or, if the state does not have standards, then standards set by any law enforcement agency within that state. 18 U.S.C. § 926C(d)(2)(B) (2006)." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richp Posted December 12, 2024 at 09:36 PM Share Posted December 12, 2024 at 09:36 PM Yup, and insofar as I know, in Illinois the recognized certification for retirees is issued in the form of the IROCC card, after following their process. We all know how twitchy the firearms issue is here in Illinois, particularly in Chicago. If you ever have the unfortunate occasion to be stopped by an officer and have to produce proof of your LEOSA status, they would be looking for your FOID card and IROCC card. Anything else might take you down a troublesome path; the reaction of the average street cop to a non-IROCC-compliant situation would be hard to predict. I'm not being critical of your thinking here. Maybe you're carving out new territory that provides more flexibility, in which case if you succeed, bravo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanishjames Posted December 13, 2024 at 01:47 AM Share Posted December 13, 2024 at 01:47 AM On 12/12/2024 at 2:10 PM, Gambit said: I might have found my answer any thoughts? Foley v. Godinez, 2016 IL App (1st) 151814, in part. Paragraph 7 "18 U.S.C. § 926C(d)(1) (2006). Or the individual can obtain two documents—a photo ID from his or her former agency stating that he or she was employed as a police officer or law enforcement officer (18 U.S.C. § 926C(d)(2)(A) (2006)) and a certification from the state or a certified firearms instructor stating that within the last year, he or she has met either the state’s active-duty standards for qualification in firearms training to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm or, if the state does not have standards, then standards set by any law enforcement agency within that state. 18 U.S.C. § 926C(d)(2)(B) (2006)." Call your IL state representative and ask them what they think. Maybe they'll realize how burdensome the law is, and replace the process with something simpler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyk101 Posted December 13, 2024 at 08:39 AM Share Posted December 13, 2024 at 08:39 AM On 12/12/2024 at 1:55 PM, richp said: The state requires Illinois retired LE to use the IROCC process to qualify to carry under LEOSA. They have set up a system to do that on approved ranges, with approved personnel, and with issuance of official credentials. In my experience it works reasonably well -- or at least it has for the 10 years or so I've been using it. Like a lot of other things here, we sometimes have to adjust, and put up with stuff that we don't like or agree with. My gripe comes into focus when I write that check each year for $100, and realize that retirees in virtually every other state are free from this burden. Here in Wisconsin, the last time I qualified, I did the qualifications through the Kenosha Sheriff's office on their range with their Wisconsin certified instructor. I had to mail the application and proof of qualification to Wisconsin DOJ along with $25, my certification that I completed previous LE firearms training, a letter from my Dept that I retired in good standing, a copy of my retirement ID issued by my dept, and a passport photo. Bad thing is they don't keep a file so every time I requalify, I have to send the whole package in again each time. With IROCC, I only had to send all the paperwork in the first time and just and updated application and fee each time after. I also preferred doing the Illinois qualification over the Wisconsin one but it wasn't too difficult, just had to do more different things. I too hated writing that check to IROCC but the process was simple and easy, just a bit overpriced. It ends up costing about the same in Illinois for the regular CC. Now up here, the first time you apply for CC, it is $40 and then in 5 years, only $22. No need to requalify or do a refresher course. You just have to take a class the first time or be able to provide proof of training such as a hunting class or prior LE training, etc... I ended up doing both the LEOSA and CC so that way I have a little breather in case I don't get around to renewing my LEOSA annual qualifications right away. The good thing is most of the places I travel to have constitutional carry anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojo Posted January 2, 2025 at 07:50 PM Share Posted January 2, 2025 at 07:50 PM The IROCC card or qualifying yearly with them isn’t necessary. It is a non profit that’s isn’t affiliated with the state. It exists only to provide an optional way for guys to meet the yearly qualification requirement if their PD won’t qualify them. My dept. issued a retired photo ID that doesn’t expire.. it has “firearm qualified” printed on it. The Chief decided due to “liability” concerns to no longer qualify retired guys or sign off on the IROCC form. Last year, I had the current range officer qualify me last year outside of work and provide me with written proof that I successfully completed my yearly shoot. Chief found out and won’t allow him to qualify me again. I’m an ILETSB certified firearm instructor myself and I’m sure I can qualify other people but probably can’t self qualify.. although there were a few years, while active, I did because I was the only range officer on the department at the time. I’ll probably get a civilian CCL unless I can find another ILETSB certified instructor to qualify me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richp Posted January 2, 2025 at 08:33 PM Share Posted January 2, 2025 at 08:33 PM I'm not a lawyer, and I don't intend to fuss over this. But a common sense reading of the information posted on the IROCC site and the enabling Illinois legislation suggests you may be dancing a fine line if you don't go through the IROCC program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango7 Posted January 13, 2025 at 09:28 PM Share Posted January 13, 2025 at 09:28 PM (edited) The biggest advertised benefits to IROCC are: 1) All IROCC card holders are in a database that can be accessed 24/7. This is a direct response to Richie Daley's paranoia about being unable to verify who is and isn't LE, especially from out of state. Remember, not only did he prohibit retired officers from qualifying at CPD facilities, he threatened to ignore HR218/LEOSA, stating “This law, as well-intentioned as it is, did us no service by pre-empting our right to keep our residents safe by regulating guns in the way we choose,” really should read, “This law, which promises additional security for the residents, could cause me administrative problems, and prevent me from disarming the populace in the way I choose.” An interesting aside, searching G**gle for "Richard Daley, LEOSA" or "Richard Daley, HR218" provided zero actual results. Bing, however provided actual returns. 2) Along the same lines, IROCC allows retired LEO's to qualify regardless of whether their original agency offers the service (see above). Just after Shortshanks was squawking about "liability" and issued orders to no qualify CPD retirees, IROCC and ILETSB issued a press release reminding IL LEO's from all communities that they may have been employed and sworn at the local level, but their certification was a State one, and as such they could qualify at any IROCC qual location and receive a card. While they phrased it as a manpower and availability issue for smaller or rural agencies, the timing to Daley's blathering was far from coincidental. At some point I believe that general order was rescinded, but I'm not exactly sure when, and, as Michael Moore and company found out, in 2010 - reinforced in 2018 - you have to possess a Retired LE ID card in order to participate (thanks Lawn Dart). Not complaining, even though I was denied retired creds, as that denial led to our winning Moore v Madigan 2 years later. As far as instructors, when I attended PTI back in the day, when we asked about recertification we were told that instructors for the MTU's and for local PD quals had to attend the series of LE Firearms instructor courses, which, IIRC, were each 40 hour programs that started with Police Firearms Instructor (the minimum required to certify), then progressed to Master Firearms Instructor, Patrol Rifle Instructor, Master Rifle Instructor, etc. (It was suggested to attend the 40 hour Police Tactical Firearms Course before PFI). But with that said, I have no idea if registration is done with ILETSB through the employing agency or the MTU. Even though the Annual Firearms Qualification Course of Fire is a matter of public record, and are the same for active and retired, I guess not having the mandated instruction on officer wellness and de-escalation techniques DQ's us lowly civvies. MTU - Mobile Training Unit, a training site that covers a certain geographical area of the state and offers training for LE agencies located therein, arranged like so: Edited January 13, 2025 at 09:31 PM by Tango7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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