mental health C&PD false reporting appeal

[casey212]

I understand that following inpatient mental health treatment, I must obtain a mental health cert to appeal my FOID revoked status. However, a C&PD form was also submitted by the police which contains false information. That false information has no details and is simply stated as a fact by the officer, so it is basically impossible to refute without more details which I do not have a right to. I've been told that I cannot appeal the facts of the C&PD, I can only appeal my FOID revoked status, then the C&PD will be "quashed". I still have a few questions about how this works, though.

 

• for the mental health exam to obtain a certificate, will that evaluator be provided the C&PD
  • if so, will I have the opportunity to refute the false information, and what is the burden of proof
• for the mental health exam to obtain a certificate, will it be held against me if I haven't been doing therapy
• if I obtain the certificate, can my appeal still be denied based on the C&PD
  • if so, will I be notified the reason(s) why, will I be able to appeal that, and will I be able to obtain more details in order to refute the false reporting
• if I win my appeal and my rights are restored, what assurances do I have that the false reporting in the C&PD is in fact "quashed"
  • is it possible that down the road, for example if I later apply for CCL, that C&PD will be used to deny my application
    • if yes, is there any way to appeal that or protest the false reporting
    • if no, is that mandated by law, or how is that enforced

 

It has not been 5 years yet, but I've been advised to not bother appealing before 5 years. I am no longer an Illinois resident.

[Euler]

There is no appeal process for C&PD contained in IL law, that includes no one having authority to remove it from your record. As long as there is a C&PD report on your record, you cannot have a FOID. Being committed to an inpatient facility gives you a path to get a FOID after you've been out for 5 years. A C&PD report is (at least in the law) forever. Who told you that a C&PD report can be "quashed?"

There used to be a provision in the law where the ISP could review a report and check it for veracity, disregarding it if it appeared to be unfounded. That provision in the law was removed after the July 4 shooting in Highland Park. ISP no longer has legal discretion.

Ordinarily, you should contact a lawyer. The C&PD law is egregiously unconstitutional. If the contents of the report (which you are prohibited from seeing) are demonstrably false, your case would be an excellent chance to have a court declare it facially unconstitutional. Even if the report is true, the law is still facially unconstitutional. It would just be harder to make a good case in a court.

The last good case was Weiner v Kelly. Unfortunately (for the rest of us), Weiner just wanted his FOID back. When ISP gave it back, Weiner dropped the case. The court did not order ISP to remove the report from his record. ISP has no authority to remove C&PD reports on its own, so technically ISP broke the law to give him his FOID back.

However, since you are no longer an Illinois resident, I believe you no longer have any standing to do anything.

Edited August 6, 2024 at 01:09 AM by Euler

[casey212]

On 8/5/2024 at 6:01 PM, Euler said:

There is no appeal process for C&PD contained in IL law, that includes no one having authority to remove it from your record. As long as there is a C&PD report on your record, you cannot have a FOID. Being committed to an inpatient facility gives you a path to get a FOID after you've been out for 5 years. A C&PD report is (at least in the law) forever. Who told you that a C&PD report can be "quashed?"

There used to be a provision in the law where the ISP could review a report and check it for veracity, disregarding it if it appeared to be unfounded. That provision in the law was removed after the July 4 shooting in Highland Park. ISP no longer has legal discretion.

Ordinarily, you should contact a lawyer. The C&PD law is egregiously unconstitutional. If the contents of the report (which you are prohibited from seeing) are demonstrably false, your case would be an excellent chance to have a court declare it facially unconstitutional. Even if the report is true, the law is still facially unconstitutional. It would just be harder to make a good case in a court.

The last good case was Weiner v Kelly. Unfortunately (for the rest of us), Weiner just wanted his FOID back. When ISP gave it back, Weiner dropped the case. The court did not order ISP to remove the report from his record. ISP has no authority to remove C&PD reports on its own, so technically ISP broke the law to give him his FOID back.

However, since you are no longer an Illinois resident, I believe you no longer have any standing to do anything.
 

I spoke to an attorney maybe about a year ago. I spoke to several attornerys, contacted hundreds, but he was the only one that seemed to know about FOID appeals. I think that was his focus. He said I couldn't appeal the C&PD, but if I won an appeal of my FOID-revoked status, the C&PD would be "quashed". I'm pretty sure that is the word he used. Not expunged, but the appeal if I won would supercede the C&PD so it wouldn't really matter anymore. That is what he implied, but I was looking for confirmation.

 

I have the full, unredacted C&PD form. I obtained it through FOIA from the police. It was attached to the police report. If there is any explanation in the police report about where the false information in the C&PD came from, it was redacted. I have obtained (through HIPAA) a bodycam recording of the couples therapist supervisor reporting me to police by phone, which she obtained through FOIA. So I know the false information came from her. But there is nothing about it in my medical record (after redactions to protect patient confidentiality of my ex-fiancee). And the police records (redacted for me) cannot confirm that therapist is the only source of the false reporting in C&PD. I cannot confirm whether or not my ex-fiancee reported that same false information directly to the police, or only relayed it through the couples therapist behind my back. And without further details about the accusation, it is impossible to disprove.

 

I'm pretty sure you can appeal your FOID-revoked status as an out-of-state resident. I think they even have forms specifically for that. This would be necessary because some states have restrictions if you are prohibited in any state. I don't think I would have any standing to contest the constitutionality of C&PD until I appeal my FOID-revoked status due to inpatient mental health. Otherwise, it is state law infringing on my rights, not C&PD false reporting. But the false reporting is all I really care about.

[veela]

Contact FredNikl or Michael r Donahue on this board.   I've talked to both and they're both experts.

[casey212]

On 8/6/2024 at 6:38 AM, veela said:

Contact FredNikl or Michael r Donahue on this board.   I've talked to both and they're both experts.

Michael R Donahue is an arrogant and ignorant asshole.

 

Me: So what if I appeal my FOID-revoked status then apply for a CCL...

Him: you cannot apply for an Illinois CCL if you are not an Illinois resident

Me: yes you can, I just looked it up a few days ago...

Him: I'm not going to answer your questions if you're going to disagree with me, have a nice day [click]

 

https://www.ispfsb.com/Public/CCL.aspx

Am I elgiible?

NON-RESIDENTS

• I am from a substantially similar state (Arkansas, Idaho, Mississippi, Nevada, Texas, or Virginia).

[Bubbacs]

Just curious here.  Why are you fighting for a FOID card if you are a non resident?  I've looked and maybe someone can point us both in the right direction but if you must have a DL or State ID to get a FOID then how r u going to apply?

Edited August 21, 2024 at 04:34 PM by Bubbacs

[solareclipse2]

On 8/21/2024 at 11:32 AM, Bubbacs said:

Just curious here.  Why are you fighting for a FOID card if you are a non resident?  I've looked and maybe someone can point us both in the right direction but if you must have a DL or State ID to get a FOID then how r u going to apply?

 

OP lives in Nevada, apparently a substantially similar state and could apply for a CCL. I guess they need to get the false mental health reporting issue cleared up before they could do so?

[John Q Public]

He probably was thinking FOID, or something was lost. You can get a CCL, but you may NOT get a FOID. He was probably talking about FOID when he said you can not get it as an OOS person.

[Bubbacs]

On 8/21/2024 at 12:21 PM, solareclipse2 said:

 

OP lives in Nevada, apparently a substantially similar state and could apply for a CCL. I guess they need to get the false mental health reporting issue cleared up before they could do so?

But he keeps saying appeal the FOID!  Maybe work on the mental health thing if that's what's holding him back from a CCL.  But a FOID card isn't holding him back.

[Michael R. Donahue]

Responding to comments made by Casey 212.  I have to say I find his comments about me "amusing".  I have a pretty thick skin after being in practice for 35 years. I pride myself on taking good care of my clients that I call "my people". Together we have had a great deal of success with restoring firearm privileges. I determined after spending a great deal of time on the phone that I did not want Casey 212 as one of "my people." If that makes me an "asshole" so be it.  I'll live with "asshole" but "arrogant asshole" I will not stand for. "LOL"

[casey212]

On 8/23/2024 at 7:13 PM, Michael R. Donahue said:

Responding to comments made by Casey 212.  I have to say I find his comments about me "amusing".  I have a pretty thick skin after being in practice for 35 years. I pride myself on taking good care of my clients that I call "my people". Together we have had a great deal of success with restoring firearm privileges. I determined after spending a great deal of time on the phone that I did not want Casey 212 as one of "my people." If that makes me an "asshole" so be it.  I'll live with "asshole" but "arrogant asshole" I will not stand for. "LOL"

You were wrong. I proved you wrong. You were too arrogant to consider you could be wrong. You are still too arrogant to admit that you were wrong. Anyone with such disregard for the truth and facts are certainly not "my people". But you're certainly in the right state. Might want to brush up on your practice.

[gunuser17]

Let's face it, lawyers and potential clients do not agree to work together on a case for a variety of reasons.  Sometimes, the personalities just don't match, sometimes the potential client and lawyer can't agree on strategy; sometimes the lawyer just doesn't think there is a case to be had; sometimes the costs of the case can't be justified between the potential client and lawyer; and there are many other potential reasons.  What never helps is the lawyer and the potential client attacking each other after no client relationship is established or third parties who weren't involved in the discussions jumping in to attack either the potential client or the lawyer. 

[casey212]

On 9/11/2024 at 10:22 AM, gunuser17 said:

Let's face it, lawyers and potential clients do not agree to work together on a case for a variety of reasons.  Sometimes, the personalities just don't match, sometimes the potential client and lawyer can't agree on strategy; sometimes the lawyer just doesn't think there is a case to be had; sometimes the costs of the case can't be justified between the potential client and lawyer; and there are many other potential reasons.  What never helps is the lawyer and the potential client attacking each other after no client relationship is established or third parties who weren't involved in the discussions jumping in to attack either the potential client or the lawyer. 

He literally hung up on me because I dared to question the false assertion he made. He literally cited it as the reason. I have every right to share my experience so others may learn from it. There is no amibiguity about what happened. I've talked to dozens of attorneys about this issue or other related issues, but I've never had such a negative experience. I've never heard any professional make a demonstrably false assertion like that for something covered by their profession, let alone hang up on a potential client for questioning that false assertion.

[casey212]

On 8/21/2024 at 5:15 PM, Bubbacs said:

But he keeps saying appeal the FOID!  Maybe work on the mental health thing if that's what's holding him back from a CCL.  But a FOID card isn't holding him back.

Appeal my FOID-revoked status as a resident of another state. That is a thing, and I'm pretty sure that would be required prior to taking a CCL course in Illinois, which would be required before obtaining an Illinois CCL again. I'm not worried about the mental health exam. I just need to wait until 5 years are up. And the ISP using a lie to infringe on my constitional rights is the single greatest mental health concern I have. Maybe you shouldn't talk about things you have no understanding about.

Edited September 11, 2024 at 06:09 PM by casey212

[solareclipse2]

On 9/11/2024 at 1:08 PM, casey212 said:

Appeal my FOID-revoked status as a resident of another state. That is a thing, and I'm pretty sure that would be required prior to taking a CCL course in Illinois, which would be required before obtaining an Illinois CCL again. I'm not worried about the mental health exam. I just need to wait until 5 years are up. And the ISP using a lie to infringe on my constitional rights is the single greatest mental health concern I have. Maybe you shouldn't talk about things you have no understanding about.

 

Ok. Let me try to make sense of this. 

 

1. Were you previously a resident of IL?

2. While you were a resident, did you have a FOID?

3. Are you claiming that because you moved from IL to NV, your FOID status according to the ISP is "Revoked"?

4. If the answer to #3 is yes, is that why you are saying that you need to appeal the status before applying for a CCL?

[Euler]

On September 11, 2024 at 01:54 PM CDT, solareclipse2 said:→

Ok. Let me try to make sense of this.

1. Were you previously a resident of IL?
2. While you were a resident, did you have a FOID?
3. Are you claiming that because you moved from IL to NV, your FOID status according to the ISP is "Revoked"?
4. If the answer to #3 is yes, is that why you are saying that you need to appeal the status before applying for a CCL?

Based on the opening post, he was an IL resident and had a FOID, but it was revoked for a C&PD report. He has since moved to NV.

My understanding is that C&PD reports also get forwarded to NICS, which would make him a prohibited person in NICS everywhere. That's the real reason to get a C&PD report cleared. Probably the only standing he would have to clear the C&PD report is to apply for a nonresident CCL, since he cannot get a FOID as a nonresident.

There was a similar case a few years ago, where a person with an IL felony conviction wanted his 2A rights restored. Federal law says the subject has to petition the court where he was convicted. IL law only grants courts the power to restore 2A rights as FOIDs. So the IL court said he had no standing, since he no longer lived in IL and nonresidents couldn't get FOIDs. I recall he did get his 2A rights back eventually, but it was not a straightforward task.

[casey212]

On 9/11/2024 at 1:37 PM, Euler said:

Based on the opening post, he was an IL resident and had a FOID, but it was revoked for a C&PD report. He has since moved to NV.

My understanding is that C&PD reports also get forwarded to NICS, which would make him a prohibited person in NICS everywhere. That's the real reason to get a C&PD report cleared. Probably the only standing he would have to clear the C&PD report is to apply for a nonresident CCL, since he cannot get a FOID as a nonresident.

There was a similar case a few years ago, where a person with an IL felony conviction wanted his 2A rights restored. Federal law says the subject has to petition the court where he was convicted. IL law only grants courts the power to restore 2A rights as FOIDs. So the IL court said he had no standing, since he no longer lived in IL and nonresidents couldn't get FOIDs. I recall he did get his 2A rights back eventually, but it was not a straightforward task.

At least someone can actually read. Thank you! I do not believe I have a federal prohibitor with NICS. I submitted a FOIA, I think to the FBI, years ago and it showed no federal prohibitor but a state prohibitor for IL. Donahue said there was no such thing as a state prohibitor, but I can't find the report now. I had no issues with the background check when I purchased my AR15.

 

I thought I saw a form specifically for non-residents looking to appeal their FOID-revoked status. This is also something police (local, not ISP, they don't say anything) have mentioned before. I can't find that form now, though.

 

I think I'll have to wait until my 5 years are up, then go to a risk analysis person that could perform the mental health exam. They would know the correct forms to submit, and they would need to submit the exam certificate anyway. I'll make sure the polygraph and any other evidence that may refute the false reporting is included.

 

But I assume that would only clear my FOID-revoked status. That would "quash" the false reporting on the C&PD. But since they are liable to change the rules at any time, the only way I can be sure it stays quashed is to obtain and maintain an IL CCL. Only then would I be made aware if they decided to weaponize the false reporting again (since it is on record forever), because they would need to revoke my IL CCL.