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PICA Hearing 3 of 3: 11/6/2023


mauserme

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Forgive me if this sounds...ignorant.  In regards to the language about magazines that are readily convertible to hold extra rounds past the amount defined as illegal by PICA, I totally understand why we would want ISP to be clear on their language.  Right now, I believe their sacred FAQs state that a 15 round pistol magazine (or a 10 round rifle magazine) that could accept a magazine extension is not illegal simply because it can be converted.  I also understand that with shotguns, the extension tube issue is a real big deal because it basically turns any semi-auto shotgun into a so-called assault weapon.

 

To my question, are we at all concerned that if we keep pressing the issue of magazine extensions that JCAR will just up an say, "Well, I guess that would make all magazines with removeable baseplates illegal because they can be converted"?  Or are we pressing for a definitive ruling from JCAR because the holy ISP FAQs are not going to stand it court for the first poor soul that may be brought up on that charge?  Maybe this is not the place to answer (loose lips and sinking ships and all)...

 

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On 11/6/2023 at 7:32 PM, ILgunguy said:

Forgive me if this sounds...ignorant.  In regards to the language about magazines that are readily convertible to hold extra rounds past the amount defined as illegal by PICA, I totally understand why we would want ISP to be clear on their language.  Right now, I believe their sacred FAQs state that a 15 round pistol magazine (or a 10 round rifle magazine) that could accept a magazine extension is not illegal simply because it can be converted.  I also understand that with shotguns, the extension tube issue is a real big deal because it basically turns any semi-auto shotgun into a so-called assault weapon.

 

To my question, are we at all concerned that if we keep pressing the issue of magazine extensions that JCAR will just up an say, "Well, I guess that would make all magazines with removeable baseplates illegal because they can be converted"?  Or are we pressing for a definitive ruling from JCAR because the holy ISP FAQs are not going to stand it court for the first poor soul that may be brought up on that charge?  Maybe this is not the place to answer (loose lips and sinking ships and all)...

 

 

By the letter of the law that are already illegal. Why would you want to give an administrative body power to start enforcing that on a whim while allowing them to dodge the current legal proceedings? 

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On 11/6/2023 at 9:05 PM, Dumak_from_arfcom said:

They said it, they are coming after airsoft.

 

LOL.   This is just an ever expanding s**t-show.   Any honest non-partisan judge should see this and say NOPE!    

 

Is there such a creature?  When it comes to 2A lawsuits in this state, I have yet to see one (beyond McGlynn).

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What am I missing here?

 

The ACT clearly states that the affidavit must be “executed electronically through the individual’s Firearms Owner’s Identification Card account.”

and the ACT clearly states that the affidavit must have “the affiants Firearms Owner’s Identification Card number”

 

JCAR cannot write legislation, ISP cannot write legislation yet we are now being told ”You do not need a FOID card to register”.
 

Are they simply writing rules that violate the act?

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On 11/7/2023 at 6:17 PM, Tip said:

What am I missing here?

 

The ACT clearly states that the affidavit must be “executed electronically through the individual’s Firearms Owner’s Identification Card account.”

and the ACT clearly states that the affidavit must have “the affiants Firearms Owner’s Identification Card number”

 

JCAR cannot write legislation, ISP cannot write legislation yet we are now being told ”You do not need a FOID card to register”.
 

Are they simply writing rules that violate the act?

IF JCAR and the ISP CAN NOT write laws why is the ISP writing the rules/code and why is JCAR approving or disapproving what the ISP writes?

I don't see anywhere in the constitution of Illinois where the state legislature gets to give or grant it's powers to the executive branch, or a subset of the "congress".

Also don't see anywhere that the Judicial branch is included or excluded from this process.

 

 

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On 11/7/2023 at 7:32 PM, mab22 said:

IF JCAR and the ISP CAN NOT write laws why is the ISP writing the rules/code and why is JCAR approving or disapproving what the ISP writes?

I don't see anywhere in the constitution of Illinois where the state legislature gets to give or grant it's powers to the executive branch, or a subset of the "congress".

Also don't see anywhere that the Judicial branch is included or excluded from this process.

 

 

 

https://www.alphakoncepts.com/illinois-assault-weapon-ban-explained/

 

Quote

 

Illinois AWB Effective Dates

There are multiple effective dates contained within the bill. The bill itself is effective immediately upon the signature of the Governor. Starting at the top, the Illinois State Police have been given authority to basically rewrite the law through the rule-making process. They are also given emergency rule-making authority, and this emergency authority expires one year after the Governor signs the bill. Universal background checks go into effect on July 1st, 2023. The immediate sale shall cease of 50 BMG, 50 cal rifles, and so-called “Assault weapons” upon the signature of the Governor. As of January 1st, 2024, it will be illegal to possess the banned items, unless you owned it before the governor signed AND it is registered with the state. 90 days after the governor signs the bill, the locations where one may possess the banned devices shall go into effect.

 

 

Apparently part of the bill gives emergency authority to the ISP.

 

VooDoo

Edited by Vodoun da Vinci
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On 11/9/2023 at 12:23 PM, Vodoun da Vinci said:

 

https://www.alphakoncepts.com/illinois-assault-weapon-ban-explained/

 

 

Apparently part of the bill gives emergency authority to the ISP.

 

VooDoo

Again, where in the IL constitution do you see the ISP( executive branch) having the “rule making authority GRANTED VIA THE CONGRESS”, good luck finding it. 
 

Here is the IL constitution

https://www.ilga.gov/commission/lrb/conmain.htm


Here is what the Illinois constitution states about the LEGISLATURE 

https://www.ilga.gov/commission/lrb/con4.htm


Here is what the Illinois constitution states about the EXECUTIVE branch.

https://www.ilga.gov/commission/lrb/con5.htm

 

Where in the executive BRANCH is it given  “law making authority”?

 

Edited by mab22
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It's pretty common practice for states to have a rule making process that puts new legislation into actual, enforceable practice.  But that process is supposed to do things like set up new computer systems, etc without changing the underlying law.  Like many things in Illinois, it got bastardized into fixing a mess as a way to put it into practice.  That's what's going on with PICA.

 

 

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On 11/9/2023 at 2:25 PM, mauserme said:

It's pretty common practice for states to have a rule making process that puts new legislation into actual, enforceable practice.  But that process is supposed to do things like set up new computer systems, etc without changing the underlying law.  Like many things in Illinois, it got bastardized into fixing a mess as a way to put it into practice.  That's what's going on with PICA.

 

 

It's because the congress people are LAZY @SS3S, I wish I could just delegate parts of my job that are "busy work".

 

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I'm still waiting for the answer is a Glock magazine a pistol magazine or a rifle magazine?

 

It works both in pistols and rifles. Does it matter which one you are using it in to determine which round you a limited to?

 

If so, does that same logic apply to the AR magazines? If I'm using it in a pistol AR then do I get 15 rounds? 

 

It is interesting, ISP website gives a nice clear answer when asked the question on owning a 15-round magazine. The question does not state rifle or pistol. 

 

Public Act 102-1116 states a “Large capacity ammunition feeding device means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than 10 rounds of ammunition for long guns and more than 15 rounds of ammunition for handguns. ”A 15 round magazine without an extension kit is legal.

 

They quote the law and then at the end add their own language which again does not clarify does this apply to a rifle or pistol. They just state " A 15 round magazine without an extension kit is legal."

 

 

 

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On 11/10/2023 at 8:23 PM, Euler said:


I think this is what you want.

Agenda for Nov 7 meeting (pdf)
wherein they discussed FOID rule changes (starting on page 301) proposed in
Illinois Register, Sep 29, 2023 (pdf)



Sorry, I should have been clearer, I'm looking for a video link to the meeting.  I saw a video clip of one of the legislators questioning ISP and thought there might be a link to video of that whole segment.

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On 11/11/2023 at 6:29 AM, bmyers said:

I'm still waiting for the answer is a Glock magazine a pistol magazine or a rifle magazine?

 

It works both in pistols and rifles. Does it matter which one you are using it in to determine which round you a limited to?

 

If so, does that same logic apply to the AR magazines? If I'm using it in a pistol AR then do I get 15 rounds? 

 

It is interesting, ISP website gives a nice clear answer when asked the question on owning a 15-round magazine. The question does not state rifle or pistol. 

 

Public Act 102-1116 states a “Large capacity ammunition feeding device means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than 10 rounds of ammunition for long guns and more than 15 rounds of ammunition for handguns. ”A 15 round magazine without an extension kit is legal.

 

They quote the law and then at the end add their own language which again does not clarify does this apply to a rifle or pistol. They just state " A 15 round magazine without an extension kit is legal."

 

There is another pair of firearms that have that same conundrum, the KelTec PMR-30 pistol and the CMR-30 semiautomatic rifle.  Both use the same 30 round magazines.

Are they exempt because they are rimfire (.22 Mag)?

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