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Shooting at a mall in a Dallas suburb.


mikew

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https://apnews.com/article/shooting-outlet-mall-allen-texas-a5148bc28d78c69ba0c59967427a2f85

 

ALLEN, Texas (AP) — A gunman killed eight people and wounded seven others – three critically – in a shooting at a Dallas-area mall before being fatally shot by a police officer who happened to be nearby, authorities said Saturday.

Authorities did not immediately provide details about the victims, but witnesses reported seeing children among them. Some said they also saw what appeared to be a police officer and a mall security guard unconscious on the ground.

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On 5/7/2023 at 2:08 PM, Retiredguns said:

The shooter, Mauricio Martinez Garcia is said to have a very graphic manifesto that like others, we may never see in entirety.

 

I wonder how much will be revealed, seems like law enforcement nowadays doesn't like to set the record straight on these events and instead holds back info and lets the MSM spin a narrative based on anonymous sources.

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On 5/7/2023 at 3:54 PM, Flynn said:

 

I wonder how much will be revealed, seems like law enforcement nowadays doesn't like to set the record straight on these events and instead holds back info and lets the MSM spin a narrative based on anonymous sources.

 

Particularly, this seems to be a Texas thing.

 

Cheers,

Tim

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On 5/7/2023 at 4:50 PM, soundguy said:

Particularly, this seems to be a Texas thing.

 

I would fully beg to differ that it's a "Texas thing" to label a mass shooter a "white supremacist neo-nazi" or hold back shooting details...  I would argue it seems to be the new MO in these events, even when the killer is dead and there is no risk of tainting a jury, they still refuse to release details like manifestos and other relavant details to set the record straight.

 

Since you work in MSM, curious, what is your network saying about this guy?  Are they talking about what appears to be a Texas Tango Blast prison/gang tattoo on his hand, or 'the patch' apparently on his chest that makes him an apparent hispanic white supremacist neo-nazi, or are they blaming the gun?

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On 5/7/2023 at 4:54 PM, Flynn said:

I wonder how much will be revealed, seems like law enforcement nowadays doesn't like to set the record straight on these events and instead holds back info and lets the MSM spin a narrative based on anonymous sources.

 

On 5/7/2023 at 5:50 PM, soundguy said:

Particularly, this seems to be a Texas thing.

 

On 5/7/2023 at 7:08 PM, Flynn said:

I would fully beg to differ that it's a "Texas thing" to ... hold back shooting details...

 

Real World Police on YouTube says the same thing. The Texas state version of FOIA requires petitioners to demonstrate that they already know everything before the state will release anything.

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On 5/7/2023 at 6:08 PM, Flynn said:

I would fully beg to differ that it's a "Texas thing"

 

It is a Texas Thing in regards to not releasing info, not holding press conferences, etc. There has still not been a full and accurate accounting of the Uvalde shooting. Texas seems to be less forthcoming than other jurisdictions.

 

Cheers,

Tim

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Virtue Signaling from 30 miles away.

 

NHL’s Stars cancel watch party after Texas mall shooting

 

https://apnews.com/article/playoffs-stars-kraken-outlet-mall-shooting-texas-32eccbddb195d07555a29a6964d461ad

 

DALLAS (AP) — The Dallas Stars canceled a watch party that was planned during their road playoff game Sunday night in the plaza outside their home arena, which is less than 30 miles from a Texas outlet mall where an assailant killed eight people the previous day.

While Game 3 of the NHL playoffs series went on as scheduled Sunday night in Seattle, the Stars said they opted against having the watch party outside the American Airlines Center “out of respect for the victims, families and community of Allen.”

Stars coach Pete DeBoer, speaking in Seattle during the team’s morning skate Sunday, said the team was “heartbroken” about the mass shooting.

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On 5/7/2023 at 7:10 PM, soundguy said:

 

It is a Texas Thing in regards to not releasing info, not holding press conferences, etc. There has still not been a full and accurate accounting of the Uvalde shooting. Texas seems to be less forthcoming than other jurisdictions.

 

We still don't have the manifesto from the Nashville shooter either, excuse after excuse, so TX is not unique it delaying and withholding info.  We can also look at old instances like the Vegas shooting, it took the Vegas police about 2 years to release all their documents, and it took the FBI 5+ years to release theirs.  Although TX may drag their feet and play games, they are hardly unique in doing so.

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This was not a gun free zone.  The site was an outdoor outlet mall, which means most stores are entered from the parking lot.  To prohibit open or concealed carry, licensed or not, stores are required to post the correct legal signage if they want to restrict carry.  According to my acquaintances who have been to this mall, very few of the stores were posted.  And parking lots are rarely, if ever posted. You also cannot be prohibited from carrying in your vehicle.

 

The guy just pulled up , jumped out of his car, and started shooting.  If I had been there, frankly, I would have been looking for cover, not trying to engage the shooter.

 

And I am bemused by the comments that LE is somehow withholding info about the shooter.  Quite a bit is coming out now about him, at least here locally.

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On 5/8/2023 at 4:14 AM, oohrah said:

This was not a gun free zone.  The site was an outdoor outlet mall, which means most stores are entered from the parking lot.  To prohibit open or concealed carry, licensed or not, stores are required to post the correct legal signage if they want to restrict carry.  According to my acquaintances who have been to this mall, very few of the stores were posted.  And parking lots are rarely, if ever posted. You also cannot be prohibited from carrying in your vehicle.

 

I beg to differ, it's a Simon Mall, they are gun free, even thier outdoor air ones, you could argue about how enforceable or legally binding it is or what not based on signage, but regardless it's still a gun free zone by Simon Mall policy.

 

https://www.simon.com/legal/code-of-conduct

https://www.premiumoutlets.com/outlet/allen

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On 5/8/2023 at 8:45 AM, Flynn said:

I beg to differ, it's a Simon Mall, they are gun free...

 

But how gun free are they by Texas law? Which legal no gun sign are they using: 30.07; 30.06; or the newer 30.05.

 

Quote

The “30.05” sign comes from the newly enacted Firearm Carry Act of 2021. Tex. Penal Code § 30.05(c) gives property owners a new option. This sign provides notice to exclude only those carrying without a Texas License to Carry (“LTC”) or other recognized license or permit in places governed by the general trespass statute.

 

Quote

 

Instructions for “30.05” Signage

  • This sign, known as a “30.05 sign” after the section number of the law creating it, will legally prohibit people from carrying firearms without an LTC at your establishment.

 

 

Texas seems to be a complicated and possibly confusing state.

 

Cheers,

Tim

 

Edited by soundguy
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On 5/8/2023 at 9:20 AM, soundguy said:

But how gun free are they by Texas law?

 

As I said...

 

Quote

you could argue about how enforceable or legally binding it is or what not based on signage, but regardless it's still a gun free zone by Simon Mall policy.

 

That said...

 

Quote

The “30.05” sign comes from the newly enacted Firearm Carry Act of 2021. Tex. Penal Code § 30.05(c) gives property owners a new option. This sign provides notice to exclude only those carrying without a Texas License to Carry (“LTC”) or other recognized license or permit in places governed by the general trespass statute.

 

30.05(c) is interesting in that it does not necessitate a location for the notice signage

 

Quote

(C)  a sign or signs posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, indicating that entry is forbidden;  

 

That to me is quite open to interpretation, would a general policy sign on the property stating the Code of Conduct be enough to enforce?  I'm guessijng probably, as to the best of my knowledge you don't actually need a 'valid' legal reason (short of discrimination) to demand someone leave and not tresspass on property you control.

Edited by Flynn
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On 5/8/2023 at 8:57 PM, Smallbore said:

Being ask to leave is no big deal. Not criminal. 

 

That isn't exactly the case here though, how often it's prosecuted (especially in TX) could be argued, but the qualifiers in regard to unlicensed carrry are connected with 'or' in their trespass law, meaning if it was posted and you entered with a license, that is a criminal act even without being asked to leave.  For those with a license to carry, the law is a little different, but it still considers a sign posted as written notice and only requires entry to be criminal, as it also doesn't require the second qualifier of being asked to before it becomes a criminal act, just the mere act of entry when posted becomes a criminal act.

 

 

Quote

Sec. 30.05.  CRIMINAL TRESPASS.  (a)  A person commits an offense if the person enters or remains on or in property of another, including residential land, agricultural land, a recreational vehicle park, a building, a general residential operation operating as a residential treatment center, or an aircraft or other vehicle, without effective consent and the person:

          (1)  had notice that the entry was forbidden; or

          (2)  received notice to depart but failed to do so.

     (b)  For purposes of this section:

           (1)  "Entry" means the intrusion of the entire body.

           (2)  "Notice" means:

                (A)  oral or written communication by the owner or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;

                (B)  fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders or to contain livestock;

                (C)  a sign or signs posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, indicating that entry is forbidden;

 

I would like to add the red below is clear a mud, as it doesn't say that this card or document has to be specifically handed to the person vs being displayed somewhere

 

Quote

Sec. 30.06.  TRESPASS BY LICENSE HOLDER WITH A CONCEALED HANDGUN.  (a)  A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:

          (1)  carries a concealed handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and

          (2)  received notice that entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden.

     (b)  For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.

     (c)  In this section:

          (1)  "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).

          (2)  "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.03.

          (3)  "Written communication" means:

               (A)  a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following:  "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by license holder with a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (handgun licensing law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or

               (B)  a sign posted on the property that:

                    (i)  includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;

                    (ii)  appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and

                    (iii)  is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

 

As Soundguy said "Texas seems to be a complicated and possibly confusing state." as the signage/trespass law appears to favor the land owner quite a bit and the lack of actually having to be asked to leave is a slippery slope.

 

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/docs/pe/htm/pe.30.htm#30.05

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On 5/8/2023 at 10:20 PM, JTHunter said:

How many of you have heard news reports that allege the shooter was "kicked out" of the U.S. military for "physical and/or mental problems"?


One of his final posts lamented that no psychologist would be able to fix him and his fears of what his family might say about him.

He said he once admitted his thoughts about his mental health to a commanding military officer.

Garcia, a security guard, had joined the Army in June 2008 but was quickly booted because of issues including mental health concerns, an Army rep said Monday.

Garcia was terminated after three months because of a red-flag mental-health evaluation, law-enforcement sources told ABC 30, saying the decision was specifically made “due to mental health concerns.” It was not immediately clear what those concerns entailed.

https://nypost.com/2023/05/08/texas-...pasteboard_app

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On 5/9/2023 at 9:52 AM, fxdpntc said:

One of his final posts lamented that no psychologist would be able to fix him and his fears of what his family might say about him.
He said he once admitted his thoughts about his mental health to a commanding military officer.
Garcia was terminated after three months because of a red-flag mental-health evaluation, law-enforcement sources told ABC 30, saying the decision was specifically made “due to mental health concerns.” It was not immediately clear what those concerns entailed.

 

On 5/9/2023 at 12:08 PM, Smallbore said:

Regardless of his mental state he knew right from wrong. He was simple an evil mean little man. No therapy can change that unless he wanted to change. We have too many in power just like him causing death and destruction.

 

Trouble maker question...

 

Should such an evaluation follow him beyond the military and have disqualified him from the right to keep and bear arms until he was determined to not be disqualified? Should such an evaluation follow a troubled minor into adulthood in the same way?

 

I do not have a conclusive answer or firm opinion.

I would guess it's gonna come up soon.

 

Cheers,

Tim

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Please allow me to clarify the confusion expressed above about Texas carry law.

 

If you have a Texas License To Carry (LTC) or any CHL recognized by reciprocity (including Illinois BTW), you cannot be prohibited from carrying anywhere, with two exceptions.  Those places statutorily prohibited (e.g. schools, etc.), or private property where the owner has posted the exact state prescribed signage.  Specifically the 30.06 (concealed) or 30.07 (open carry) sign.  If you do not post these signs, your corporate policy, gun buster sign or whatever you post has no force of law.  Public places, not statutorily prohibited, are not allowed to post.  Parking lots are not considered premises and must be posted separately, they rarely are, I've never seen one.  Even employers who prohibit possession cannot enforce carry in your vehicle in their parking lots.

 

So, while Simon Malls may have a corporate policy, their stores in Texas are not posted, so they are not gun free zones, especially for licensed concealed carry. 

 

The only other exception is that if a proprietor (who has not posted) discovers you are carrying, they can ask you to leave.  If you do not leave, you are considered trespassing, and that can cause the appearance of LE.

 

With Constitutional Carry, it is a bit more interesting.  The only way a proprietor can prohibit constitutional carry, is to post "no trespassing with guns signs".  Note that these signs have absolutely no bearing on a licensed carrier and no force of law on them.  If the licensed carrier is discovered, they can be asked to leave, but they cannot be prosecuted for violating the "no trespassing" sign.

 

Hope this helps

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On 5/9/2023 at 1:09 PM, soundguy said:

Should such an evaluation follow him beyond the military and have disqualified him from the right to keep and bear arms until he was determined to not be disqualified?

Should such an evaluation follow a troubled minor into adulthood in the same way?

 

In a word - yes and yes.  The military should have notified state authorities after he was drummed out of the military.  While a minor can't buy a firearm, as an adult, they should be re-evaluated before being allowed to purchase/possess a firearm.  If they pass the evaluation, no restrictions necessary.

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Doesn't appear to be much of a manifesto.  More along the angry and troubled person scenario.  We can start tracing these back to when the dems had full control and wrote the ACA, bowing to their lobbyist and financial masters, and didn't include adequate mental health benefits in either the ACA or Medicare/Medicaid.  The repubs also didn't bother to fix this when they had the chance.  It's like neither of the parties really care about the voters who keep them in their comfortable positions. 

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On 5/9/2023 at 8:16 PM, JTHunter said:

 

In a word - yes and yes.  The military should have notified state authorities after he was drummed out of the military.  While a minor can't buy a firearm, as an adult, they should be re-evaluated before being allowed to purchase/possess a firearm.  If they pass the evaluation, no restrictions necessary.


So… strict red flag laws should be enforced nationwide? The military red flag in the Allen TX case was not. The juvenile red flag in Highland Park was not. 
 

It’s gonna come up…

 

 

Cheers,

Tim

 

 

 

 

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On 5/9/2023 at 10:59 PM, soundguy said:


So… strict red flag laws should be enforced nationwide? The military red flag in the Allen TX case was not. The juvenile red flag in Highland Park was not. 
 

It’s gonna come up…

 

 

Cheers,

Tim

 

 

 

 

 

Strict mental disqualifiers should be enforced nationwide.  When an adult gets kicked out of the military for mental issues, that should disqualify him from purchasing guns.  What the hey!!! is the 4473 for if not for that?  Whackos shouldn't be allowed access to guns.  

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