SIG P320: The most dangerous handgun

[Euler]

On August 8, 2025 at 07:28 AM CDT, SiliconSorcerer said:→

Another obsessed with p320 video another different thing but has this been tested on other striker fired ?

Not a firearm in holster problem

If you check out this guy's #3 video, he's talking about point #2 in my July 31 post. He says he's been shooting P320s in competition for the past six years, yet he admits that he was unaware of how a P320 works. *sigh*

The same thing can't happen on other striker-fired pistols, because (I think) they don't have a safety that locks out magazine insertion. (I'm not familiar with all manufacturers, so maybe some have such safeties.) Could SIG remove the ability of the takedown safety to lock in place during takedown? Maybe, but (as I say in my July 31 post) it's only a problem if you put 45acp/10mm parts in a 9mm/357sig/40s&w frame. The takedown safety is an instance of SIG trying to make the P320 idiot-proof but severely underestimating some people's capacity for idiocy. (If you build an idiot trap, Mother Nature will build a bigger idiot?)

On July 31, 2025 at 03:14 PM CDT, Euler said:→

...
2. It's possible to have a working firearm with the takedown lockout engaged. Disengaging the takedown lockout requires engaging the slide lock during reassembly.

Why would someone do that? Maybe they're just used to using only an "armorer's grip" to reassemble a firearm. Maybe they think they're "outsmarting" SIG, because SIG wants/requires them to use the slide lock, and they feel good about "defeating" SIG. ("SIG can't tell me what to do.")


I couldn't find a picture of the armorer's grip on a SIG, so here it is on a different brand.

A smart person would use the firearm as intended. A stupid person might be unaware that sear engagement with the lockout engaged is marginal. It should only be an issue if they've done #1 above, because otherwise they shouldn't be able to insert a magazine.
...

[SiliconSorcerer]

On 8/9/2025 at 10:52 PM, ealcala31 said:

The majority of LE never pull their weapons from their holster for an entire year, maybe years.

I think a whole lot come home change their cloths or minimally pull their firearm put it somewhere. 

Witnessed this weekend, he returned home pulled his P320 and placed it top shelf in the coat closet either in or next to the hand safe, he has a 3 year old at home.

I'm sure some may just hang the belt and firearm over the chair like you see in movies but they also have at least yearly qualification.

 

[ealcala31]

On 8/11/2025 at 7:03 AM, SiliconSorcerer said:

I think a whole lot come home change their cloths or minimally pull their firearm put it somewhere. 

Witnessed this weekend, he returned home pulled his P320 and placed it top shelf in the coat closet either in or next to the hand safe, he has a 3 year old at home.

I'm sure some may just hang the belt and firearm over the chair like you see in movies but they also have at least yearly qualification.

 

I was referring to duty, but sure, what you're saying is accurate. How many accidental/negligent/uncommanded discharges have been reported by LE from storing their firearm at home? Or during their yearly qualification if the department requires pulling from the holster during quals?

[Euler]

ISRA jumps on the bandwagon. (Or is that the banwagon?)

ISRA said:

Effective immediately, the Illinois State Rifle Association Academy and ISRA Range have enacted a temporary ban on the use of the SIG Sauer P320 and all its variations (M17 and M18) at our facilities.

This decision was not made lightly. It is based solely on participant safety and organizational liability management. The ban will remain in place until legal matters are resolved and the firearm is cleared through independent testing or regulatory review.

We value every member’s commitment to safe, responsible firearm ownership, and we look forward to welcoming these firearms back once concerns are addressed.

I believe the operative words are "organizational liability management."

[2A4Cook]

I like Sig pistols (how many years have I had this avatar???).  I've owned tons of them, including P320s.  After reviewing and considering a lot of the evidence out there, both for and against, I've come to a personal conclusion that the design is flawed, and potentially dangerous.   After the way they handled the drop safe issue with a "voluntary upgrade program" and stealth design changes instead of a recall, I don't trust the company itself to show anywhere near as much care for customer safety as they do for their balance sheet.

[Euler]

Tom Grieve has a new video in which he analyzes the common elements in the 3 successful suits against SIG. He talked to the lawyer who brought the cases, although he wouldn't talk to Tom on camera. Watch the video, if you want. I'll summarize.

1. The cases are NOT about accidental/"uncommanded" discharges. There is no allegation that the P320 goes off on its own.
2. The trigger pull is too short. (The P320 is about 4.3mm. A Glock is about 12.5mm. The HK VP9 is about 6.1mm. For comparison, competition pistols are typically 1.5mm to 2mm.)
3. There are no external safeties. In particular, there is no trigger tab, which SIG had once advertised would be an option. (SIG ultimately never offered it.)
4. The P320 is single action. (BTW, the HK VP9 and the Walther PDP are also single action.)

So the allegation that is winning over juries is that negligent discharges are too easy with the P320.

Trigger tabs are really drop safeties, not some kind of negligence safeties, so apparently juries are getting confused about that, but lots of firearm owners get confused about that, too.

So when SIG says that anti-gunners will go after another manufacturer when they're done with the P320, it's not wrong. It's just saying it poorly.

Edited August 14, 2025 at 06:24 AM by Euler

[ealcala31]

On 8/13/2025 at 11:42 PM, Euler said:

Tom Grieve has a new video in which he analyzes the common elements in the 3 successful suits against SIG. He talked to the lawyer who brought the cases, although he wouldn't talk to Tom on camera. Watch the video, if you want. I'll summarize.

1. The cases are NOT about accidental/"uncommanded" discharges. There is no allegation that the P320 goes off on its own.
2. The trigger pull is too short. (The P320 is about 4.3mm. A Glock is about 12.5mm. The HK VP9 is about 6.1mm. For comparison, competition pistols are typically 1.5mm to 2mm.)
3. There are no external safeties. In particular, there is no trigger tab, which SIG had once advertised would be an option. (SIG ultimately never offered it.)
4. The P320 is single action. (BTW, the HK VP9 and the Walther PDP are also single action.)

So the allegation that is winning over juries is that negligent discharges are too easy with the P320.

Trigger tabs are really drop safeties, not some kind of negligence safeties, so apparently juries are getting confused about that, but lots of firearm owners get confused about that, too.

So when SIG says that anti-gunners will go after another manufacturer when they're done with the P320, it's not wrong. It's just saying it poorly.
 

I watched that yesterday. What's pretty interesting is that most gun owners will modify their Glock, HK, S&W, and Walther to have a trigger "like" the P320 out the box. 

[Bubbacs]

How is this subject still a thing?  

[Smallbore]

Extra knowledge keeps coming out. I like open discussions.

[Bubbacs]

On 8/14/2025 at 6:51 PM, Smallbore said:

Extra knowledge keeps coming out. I like open discussions.

When you say 'extra knowledge' do you mean YT click baits?  Or actual different finding than those found several years ago?

[Smallbore]

On 8/14/2025 at 9:13 PM, Bubbacs said:

When you say 'extra knowledge' do you mean YT click baits?  Or actual different finding than those found several years ago?

Each too their own.

[Euler]

A YouTuber shows that pulling the trigger and manipulating the slide can cause 12 (if I counted correctly) different striker-fired pistols to discharge (and one hammer-fired not). He does a bunch of other stuff, too. Skip ahead to about 14m17s to get to the real stuff.

Edited August 17, 2025 at 03:23 AM by Euler

[ScottFM]

On 8/13/2025 at 8:30 PM, 2A4Cook said:

I like Sig pistols (how many years have I had this avatar???).  I've owned tons of them, including P320s.  After reviewing and considering a lot of the evidence out there, both for and against, I've come to a personal conclusion that the design is flawed, and potentially dangerous.   After the way they handled the drop safe issue with a "voluntary upgrade program" and stealth design changes instead of a recall, I don't trust the company itself to show anywhere near as much care for customer safety as they do for their balance sheet.

Emphasis mine. 

 

THAT to me is the biggest issue now. It is no longer is the gun is defective or not. It is perception and marketing. SIG failed, badly. The reaction of gun ranges, public safety agencies, etc. is reflecting the lose of confidence and the willingness to go out on a limb for SIG. The P320 is now a failed product. The BEST thing they could do is stop selling it, redesigned it, and sell it as something else. P321x-PRO, M17A, M18-1, or P640 (twice as safe a P320!), etc. 

[John Q Public]

On 8/16/2025 at 10:06 PM, Euler said:

A YouTuber shows that pulling the trigger and manipulating the slide can cause 12 (if I counted correctly) different striker-fired pistols to discharge (and one hammer-fired not). He does a bunch of other stuff, too. Skip ahead to about 14m17s to get to the real stuff.

Apples and oranges. It all depends on individual pre, or take up vs getting into the actual cycle. All these firearms are different in that respect. My point is how close to the break/ how much engagement is left at that point. You could get 5-10 thou from a break on most anything and do the same thing and get a discharge. I'm still not saying Sig, but does anyone really think, this is the same across all these platforms? I think not. As was stated earlier, and I kinda laughed, stop horse died many moons. To make something that mattered, you would have to account for pre, then actual cycle, and also weight. This comparison is without merit. 

 

Please, just lock it up, what more can be said?

 

 

Edited August 17, 2025 at 06:42 PM by John Q Public

[Euler]

Air Force Global Strike Command said:→

Air Force Global Strike Command has completed a comprehensive inspection of its 7,970 M18 Modular Handgun Systems, following a directed pause on July 21, 2025.
...
The inspection process identified discrepancies with 191 weapons across the command's M18 inventory. The primary discrepancy was related to component wear. The most frequent issues centered on problems with the safety lever, striker assembly and sear. Weapons exhibiting these discrepancies were immediately tagged and are undergoing necessary repairs.

The intent of this command-wide inspection was two-fold: first, to confirm that all weapons in service are in proper working order; and second, to analyze the data regarding any reported discrepancies and usage rates.

A review of weapon discharges in AFGSC showed that none were attributed to weapons malfunction.
...
Air Force Global Strike Command Security Forces Defenders are resuming arming with M18s that have successfully passed inspection -- deeming them safe and reliable for use -- on Aug. 25, 2025.
...

It would be nice to know specifically what the inspections found with the striker safety lever, striker assembly, and sear. I notice that the release doesn't include any mention of a problem with the striker safety, although the striker safety is part of the striker assembly. There's also no mention of a problem with the FCUs (other than wear on the sear).

191 / 7970 = 2.4% (is kind of a lot)

Edited August 28, 2025 at 03:25 AM by Euler

[davel501]

On 8/27/2025 at 10:20 PM, Euler said:

It would be nice to know specifically what the inspections found with the striker safety lever, striker assembly, and sear. I notice that the release doesn't include any mention of a problem with the striker safety, although the striker safety is part of the striker assembly. There's also no mention of a problem with the FCUs (other than wear on the sear).

191 / 7970 = 2.4% (is kind of a lot)
 

 

There's the higher round counts again. I'm thinking that the reason this scares departments so much is it actually impacts the people that know what their doing. The good, switched on, shooters rather than the people that take their pistols out of the holster 2x per year to qual. 

[Euler]

ABC News said:→

Two airmen at a Wyoming U.S. Air Force base have pleaded guilty to making false statements about the deadly shooting of a third that prompted the suspension of Sig Sauer M18 pistol use at nuclear weapons sites for a month, the Air Force said in a statement Friday.
...
Details about [Brayden Lovan's] death were released for the first time Friday, including that the alleged shooter, Marcus White-Allen, had pointed the gun at Lovan's chest in a "joking manner." White-Allen after the shooting allegedly urged the other two surviving airmen to lie about what happened, according to the statement.

White-Allen, who was arrested on suspicion of involuntary manslaughter and making a false statement, was found dead on base on the morning of Oct. 8. Air Force officials have not disclosed details surrounding White-Allen's death, saying it was still under investigation.
...
The two reported hearing White-Allen's gun go off and then seeing Lovan on the ground, according to the statement.

White-Allen allegedly told [Airman Sarbjot] Badesha, "Here's the story. Tell them that I slammed my duty belt on the desk and it went off." White-Allen allegedly told [Airman Matthew] Rodriguez to tell emergency responders that White-Allen's "holster went off," according to the statement.
...

It looks like the perpetrator killed himself on October 8 (or got Epstein'd, if you want to make a conspiracy out of it). Either way, there's not going to be a trial.

[Euler]

On July 17, 2025 at 10:55 PM CDT, Euler said:→

On April 10, 2025 at 01:20 AM CDT, Euler said:→

In other news:

On June 22, 2024 at 08:18 PM CDT, Euler said:→

On June 20, a federal jury in Georgia found SIG liable. (Lang v SIG Sauer) The case had been on-going since October 2021.

After the verdict, the defense asked the judge to determine the award (i.e., rather than allow the jury to decide). The judge awarded $2.3M to Lang.

On March 7, SIG and Lang cross-appealed to the 11th Circuit.

On March 13, the 11th Circuit assigned docket 25-10810.

On May 16, SIG filed its cross-appellant brief.

On July 16, Lang filed his appellee/cross-appellant brief.

On January 2, oral argument was scheduled for February 27.