SIG P320: The most dangerous handgun

[Euler]

Washington Post

Washington Post said:

...

More than 100 people allege that their P320 pistols discharged when they did not pull the trigger, an eight-month investigation by The Washington Post and The Trace has found. At least 80 people were wounded in the shootings, which date to 2016.

...

"The number and frequency of injuries are strongly suggestive of a design flaw versus a human performance error," said Bill Lewinski, a behavioral scientist, executive director of the Force Science Institute and one of the nation's leading experts on accidental shootings. "What we're seeing is highly unusual."

...

Robert Zimmerman, a lawyer representing more than 40 clients in lawsuits against SIG Sauer over the P320, said that while understanding the precise mechanism of the P320's failure is important, the sheer number of incidents — at least nine of which have been caught on video -- confirm there is a problem. He has argued that the gun is defective without an external safety installed.

 

"The point is: This gun is susceptible to unintended discharges," Zimmerman said. "SIG made design choices that left it the most dangerous gun on the market of its kind."

...

 

This stuff goes on for a while. If a few negligent users shoot themselves, it's the firearm's fault, according to some prominent anti-gunners. The article likens the P320 cases to the Remington 700 recall a few years ago, among other things.

 

Edited April 13, 2023 at 09:51 PM by Euler

[davel501]

The sig 320 was actually dangerous. I thought they fixed them all with the "voluntary recall" though so this seems like old news. The fact that they handled this so poorly is why I will probably never own a sig product.

[SiliconSorcerer]

Consider the source, don't believe much or anything from the Washington Post. 

They were fixed, I won't carry a firearm with any type of safety, magazine, trigger, grip, lever, NADA. 

Don't want it to fire don't pull the trigger. 

 

 

[Smallbore]

How many owners who shot themselves will admit it? They now use the Baldwin defense. Especially newbies but not only newbies have difficulty keeping their trigger finger alone side the frame. Blame the manufacture, hope for a big pay day. 

[sfgdcs]

The family’s M17 and M18 have performed without any issues. 

[davel501]

On 4/24/2023 at 10:49 AM, sfgdcs said:

The family’s M17 and M18 have performed without any issues. 

 

Not the same gun. Those have manual safeties. 

[Dumak_from_arfcom]

 

The guns are mechanically safe IMO.  It isn't happening to the .mil 320s.  They have the manual safety.  They all have MIM parts. If it was a mechanical or MIM issue then the .mil guns would also be going bang.

 

Not having the trigger dingus could be the issue.  Any debris that enters the holster could cause the trigger to be pushed to the rear.  

 

I suspect at some point that the 320 guns are going to get a trigger dingus. 

[Euler]

On 4/24/2023 at 3:57 PM, Dumak_from_arfcom said:

...

I suspect at some point that the 320 guns are going to get a trigger dingus. 

 

The "dingus" is a drop safety, too. If you want one, you can have one already. (Sort of, they're out of stock.) If something gets inside the trigger guard, the safety isn't going to stop the trigger from being pulled.

 

https://www.agencyarms.com/sig-p320-compatible-drop-in-trigger

[davel501]

This is the problem that we are talking about here, right? 

 

 

[Dumak_from_arfcom]

On 4/24/2023 at 3:10 PM, Euler said:

 

The "dingus" is a drop safety, too. If you want one, you can have one already. (Sort of, they're out of stock.) If something gets inside the trigger guard, the safety isn't going to stop the trigger from being pulled.

 

https://www.agencyarms.com/sig-p320-compatible-drop-in-trigger

 

The dingus can stop the trigger from moving rearward while in a holster.  Any obstruction or debris must also fully defeat the dingus.  

The 320 lacks a dingus and has a relatively light and short trigger pull. 

[Smallbore]

On 4/24/2023 at 3:28 PM, davel501 said:

This is the problem that we are talking about here, right? 

 

 

Note this video is 5 years old.

[davel501]

On 4/24/2023 at 9:11 PM, Smallbore said:

Note this video is 5 years old.

 

See my comment from 4/13.

[Smallbore]

On 4/24/2023 at 9:23 PM, davel501 said:

 

See my comment from 4/13.

I do not see where the P320 is any more dangerous then a Glock. You abuse a P320 it may discharge. You holster a Glock it may discharge.

All single actions will fire easily. That's their intent. Over one hundred years ago John Moses saw the wisdom of two external safeties. Rifle were given external safeties. Why in blazes do people now think doing away them was smart. Once again relying on government bureaucracy (a drop test) to protect us is stupid. Common sense (horse sense) trumps expertise every time. The only truly safe way to carry most guns is with an empty chamber. Israeli carry is wise. Justifying any thing else is foolish as too many discharges have proven.

All machines are prone to failure including humans.

[davel501]

On 4/25/2023 at 7:59 AM, Smallbore said:

I do not see where the P320 is any more dangerous then a Glock. You abuse a P320 it may discharge. You holster a Glock it may discharge.

All single actions will fire easily. That's their intent. Over one hundred years ago John Moses saw the wisdom of two external safeties. Rifle were given external safeties. Why in blazes do people now think doing away them was smart. Once again relying on government bureaucracy (a drop test) to protect us is stupid. Common sense (horse sense) trumps expertise every time. The only truly safe way to carry most guns is with an empty chamber. Israeli carry is wise. Justifying any thing else is foolish as too many discharges have proven.

All machines are prone to failure including humans.

 

You mean other than the Glocks being drop safe?

[Smallbore]

On 4/25/2023 at 8:40 AM, davel501 said:

 

You mean other than the Glocks being drop safe?

Does maybe being drop safe make them safe?

[Yeti]

Here’s Tom Taylor, an EVP at Sig, throwing out the company’s talking points starting at 15:30 in a recent radio interview:

 

https://guntalk.libsyn.com/marlin-brings-back-an-iconic-lever-rifle-sig-innovations-the-science-of-bullets-gun-talk-041923-hour-2

[Max Liberty]

To my mind, the design is mechanically iffy, at least in light of information in some online videos.  In particular I'd suggest at least viewing "How can a P320s fire un-commanded?  AKA P320 fires while in its holster?" on the Grey Wolf Armory YouTube channel.  There are of course other videos where the fire control and safety mechanisms are examined.  In a nutshell, the point in this video isn't that the gun literally fires itself with no outside influence at all, but that its design is perhaps marginal.

 

Research it if curious and decide for yourself.  I sure wouldn't carry one with a loaded chamber.  But, you do you, and I'll do me.

 

Max

Edited April 26, 2023 at 12:42 AM by Max Liberty

[DoYouFeelLucky]

I've carried my P320 X-Carry frequently, and I've tried to get it to fire without a trigger pull while at my range.  It seems to be functionally solid.  I keep wondering if as the new wave of hammerless carry guns without traditional safeties has flooded the market, if we are seeing the result of people with legacy bad trigger discipline have problems with them.  The old style safeties would save them, the newer style guns not so much.  I also agree that the Israeli style of carrying with the chamber empty is a far better idea than is given credence to.  I've had to brandish my weapon twice in the last 10 years or so, and the sound of the slide racking got the desired attention and the desired result.

[illinois_buckeye]

Don’t carry a p320, usually a hellcat with manual safety or a Taurus g3c with a safety.  I keep one in but safety on.  Once had someone flash a gun at me in traffic thankfully he got off an exit and never saw them again.  I’d made the mistake of honking the horn after they nearly sideswiped me twice with my wife in the car.  At that time I did Israeli carry. After that I started carrying one in the chamber.  
 

There’s been times when I’ve gone to rack a slide and the gun jams up when trying to rack it.  What I think back to is what if that guy had hit me?  I’ll just leave it at saying it looked like there was a car full of nice young men.  I just think if he’d have hit me, number one what would be their demeanor as they exit their vehicle, two, would I have time to reach it and rack?  Three, if it had jammed then could I have cleared it in time to be of use if needed?  
 

That is a lot of what ifs.  That’s why I cat with a round in but safety on for the extra peace of mind, however if things go sideways and I’m training to get the safety off, then I don’t have to worry about if it will go bang.

[RandyP]

IMHO Sig resolved the issue with the recall. The BEST safety for EVERY firearm lies between the ears of the shooter. I have a few different handguns in my carry rotation, all with one in the chamber, most with no external safety. Cuz when the feces hits the rotary ventilator I may well need it to fire now, not after I do some manipulation I could fumble. Caveat, I am NOT in the Israeli armed forces, nor do I train at the high level they do. I'm a geezer with arthritis and will never carry in any condition other than one in the pipe.

[davel501]

On 6/9/2023 at 5:46 PM, RandyP said:

IMHO Sig resolved the issue with the recall. The BEST safety for EVERY firearm lies between the ears of the shooter. I have a few different handguns in my carry rotation, all with one in the chamber, most with no external safety. Cuz when the feces hits the rotary ventilator I may well need it to fire now, not after I do some manipulation I could fumble. Caveat, I am NOT in the Israeli armed forces, nor do I train at the high level they do. I'm a geezer with arthritis and will never carry in any condition other than one in the pipe.

 

There was no recall. Be sure to check your serial numbers. Lot's of people assume all of them got fixed.

 

P320 Voluntary Upgrade Program | SIG SAUER

[RandyP]

On 6/9/2023 at 6:20 PM, davel501 said:

 

There was no recall. Be sure to check your serial numbers. Lot's of people assume all of them got fixed.

 

P320 Voluntary Upgrade Program | SIG SAUER

Thanks for the info. I thought it was something different, but still kudos to Sig for the offer. I would have no issue owning one.

[davel501]

On 6/10/2023 at 7:26 AM, RandyP said:

Thanks for the info. I thought it was something different, but still kudos to Sig for the offer. I would have no issue owning one.

 

I went the other way. I'll likely never own a sig product after the way they handled this. I was going to buy the 320 with their optic already on it that On Target had in their case for myself for Christmas that year too. When Bruce Gray at Grayguns did the 180 and changed to they are dangerous and here is how to recreate it and sig still denied it I was done forever. 

[RandyP]

On 6/10/2023 at 11:01 AM, davel501 said:

 

I went the other way. I'll likely never own a sig product after the way they handled this. I was going to buy the 320 with their optic already on it that On Target had in their case for myself for Christmas that year too. When Bruce Gray at Grayguns did the 180 and changed to they are dangerous and here is how to recreate it and sig still denied it I was done forever. 

And THAT is why that Ice Cream franchise sells all those different flavors. IMHO we are living in the 'Golden Age' of handguns. I'm 74, been shooting for over 60 years, and marvel at the plethora of 'good' choices for reliable, safe firearms there are at ALL budget levels. I reckon we can thank the era of the "polymer wonders" as the genesis of this Golden Age. I well remember when low cost/affordable meant Saturday Night Special crapola, Not anymore....IMHO.

[2A4Cook]

Ron "do everything as cheaply as possible" Cohen.  Kimber's reputation is still hurting 18 years after he left the company.

 

Still, in this instance ... don't drop your pistol?

[Bubbacs]

Wait don’t all you guys do use a hammer smack to the rear of the slide to see if it’s safe?  Is there a weight limit on the hammers or brand?

Edited June 11, 2023 at 06:29 PM by Bubbacs

[davel501]

On 6/10/2023 at 11:23 PM, Bubbacs said:

Wait don’t all you guys do se a hammer smack to the rear of the slide to see if it’s safe?  Is there a weight limit on the hammers or brand?

 

My goto right now is a 2011 so I'm supposed to get mad if someone drops the slide on an empty chamber. I'm pretty sure taking a hammer to it unless driving a punch is against 7 different rules. Lol

[AlphaKoncepts aka CGS]

I have 2 320's and I have tried and tried to make them go off. The only way possible is to pull the trigger. Maybe I got the only two good ones?

Anywho, I just converted them to force on force trainers as I shot the heck out of one, and seldom shot the other. 

[tylerlivesnd]

First day my unit received the new M17 one of the young kids popped out the trigger assembly and couldn’t get it back in. Lots of trigger issues after frequent use. I saw one trigger drop out of one during a live range. 

[Euler]

The "trigger assembly" is the fire control module. It's certainly possible to disassemble a P320 incorrectly.