Use of force against a person shooting randomly in a residential area?

[Fuddly]

This happened recently in Grayslake. A person was supposedly firing shots into the air while walking through a Grayslake neighborhood. This block was larger single family homes with good spacing between them. I put in a link to the article.  
 

https://www.lakemchenryscanner.com/2023/01/19/man-in-custody-after-police-say-he-walked-between-houses-in-grayslake-firing-multiple-shots/

 

My question is this. If I heard shots fired, looked out my window and saw a person shooting in the air, and they were headed towards my home, am I at any point justified in firing at the person to stop them? Taking it a step further, if such a person were firing at homes (instead of in the air) while walking down my block towards my house, am I at any point justified in firing at that person?

[Smallbore]

Not an attorney.

If a guy is walking down a street shooting at my house I see him as fulfilling AOJ. He is causing immediate danger to me and my family. I will first try to secure my family, then call the police, yell out to him to stop. If he does not stop (I won't care the reason) I will launch projectiles his way until threat ceases. Distance will determined launching pad. I want all high speed particles to be stopped and contained by this idiot, no one nor anything else.

My soul desire is to protect the innocent.

This not legal advise. This is merely what I hope I will try and accomplish to protect the innocent.

I pray to our Father in Heaven that I am never in such a situation.

 

[davel501]

Agree with Smalbore, I don't want to get baited into helping some dude commit suicide but if he was shooting into a house I thought was occupied he's an active shooter. In those tight quarters you'd have to have one of those scary black rifles with the GI Joe Kung fu grip. Knowing your holds is going to be really important so he catches and stops all the projectiles. 

 

If there's an opportunity to avoid getting involved that's always best but if you're hand is forced then you have to be ready to act quickly and decisively then get the gun out of your hands so you don't get shot by responding officers or late arriving neighbors. 

[mousegun6]

On 2/4/2023 at 9:07 AM, Fuddly said:

This happened recently in Grayslake. A person was supposedly firing shots into the air while walking through a Grayslake neighborhood. This block was larger single family homes with good spacing between them. I put in a link to the article.  
 

https://www.lakemchenryscanner.com/2023/01/19/man-in-custody-after-police-say-he-walked-between-houses-in-grayslake-firing-multiple-shots/

 

My question is this. If I heard shots fired, looked out my window and saw a person shooting in the air, and they were headed towards my home, am I at any point justified in firing at the person to stop them? Taking it a step further, if such a person were firing at homes (instead of in the air) while walking down my block towards my house, am I at any point justified in firing at that person?

Hear is the Illinois statute:

 

 

 

 

(720 ILCS 5/6-4) (from Ch. 38, par. 6-4)     Sec. 6-4. Affirmative Defense. A defense based upon any of the provisions of Article 6 is an affirmative defense except that mental illness is not an affirmative defense, but an alternative plea or finding that may be accepted, under appropriate evidence, when the affirmative defense of insanity is raised or the plea of guilty but mentally ill is made. (Source: P.A. 82-553.)

 

(720 ILCS 5/Art. 7 heading) ARTICLE 7. JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE; EXONERATION

 

(720 ILCS 5/7-1) (from Ch. 38, par. 7-1)     Sec. 7-1. Use of force in defense of person.     (a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or another against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or another, or the commission of a forcible felony.     (b) In no case shall any act involving the use of force justified under this Section give rise to any claim or liability brought by or on behalf of any person acting within the definition of "aggressor" set forth in Section 7-4 of this Article, or the estate, spouse, or other family member of such a person, against the person or estate of the person using such justified force, unless the use of force involves willful or wanton misconduct. (Source: P.A. 93-832, eff. 7-28-04.)

 

(720 ILCS 5/7-2) (from Ch. 38, par. 7-2)     Sec. 7-2. Use of force in defense of dwelling.     (a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other's unlawful entry into or attack upon a dwelling. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if:         (1) The entry is made or attempted in a violent,

riotous, or tumultuous manner, and he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent an assault upon, or offer of personal violence to, him or another then in the dwelling, or

(2) He reasonably believes that such force is

necessary to prevent the commission of a felony in the dwelling.

I would advise that you and your family take cover in a defensive position inside your home and call 911. Let the professionals deal with this idiot. If he breaks into your home then you are justified to use whatever force is necessary to stop the threat. Confronting him outside your home, you face a possibility of spending the rest of your life in prison if you shoot the guy.

[Euler]

On 2/4/2023 at 10:07 AM, Fuddly said:

...

My question is this. If I heard shots fired, looked out my window and saw a person shooting in the air, and they were headed towards my home, am I at any point justified in firing at the person to stop them? Taking it a step further, if such a person were firing at homes (instead of in the air) while walking down my block towards my house, am I at any point justified in firing at that person?

 

Firing shots in the air is an imminently deadly threat to everyone, which is why warning shots are illegal everywhere (in the US). You do not have to wait for him to take aimed shots to be justified to use deadly force against him. You do not have to warn him verbally or otherwise. You are also not required to use deadly force. You can use any kind of force you want, including none, like to run away (which is why you would not be civilly liable if you didn't shoot him, but could have, and he killed someone else).

 

Yeah, cops get baited into helping someone commit suicide all the time. It doesn't mean the perp won't keep killing other people to get someone to kill him eventually. At that point, he wants to take other people with him, so he's still a lethal threat (and he could have one of those scary, high-capacity magazines full of bullets that will rip the lungs right out of you).

[Yeti]

While the question can be widely interpreted and has unlimited answers based upon theory, I am aligned with Euler if someone is shooting into MY home and I know the environment and risk.  If the person is firing into another house, it would depend.  Homeowner outside his or her home firing back at kidnappers?  Undercover officer engaging target that broke into the home?  Lots of unknowns and decision would be in the moment based on any specific knowledge of who might be in that home.  Potential empty house with no knowledge of occupants?  Probably not engaging and seeking better cover.  The only thought I can have is that I might now have enough info to make a clear choice.

[djmarkla]

On 2/5/2023 at 12:03 AM, Yeti said:

While the question can be widely interpreted and has unlimited answers based upon theory, I am aligned with Euler if someone is shooting into MY home and I know the environment and risk.  If the person is firing into another house, it would depend.  Homeowner outside his or her home firing back at kidnappers?  Undercover officer engaging target that broke into the home?  Lots of unknowns and decision would be in the moment based on any specific knowledge of who might be in that home.  Potential empty house with no knowledge of occupants?  Probably not engaging and seeking better cover.  The only thought I can have is that I might now have enough info to make a clear choice.

👍

[Sol-Invictus]

The law looks pretty clear to me. Pew pews delivered.

[AlphaKoncepts aka CGS]

Can your lawyer articulate on your behalf why you felt your or someone else's life was in threat of immediate death or great bodily harm? Firing randomly into the air is dangerous and can kill but a zealous prosecutor could make the claim there was no immediate threat.  We also know that one can use lethal force to stop a forcible felony, but reckless discharge isn't a forcible felony.  

 

I always suggest to my students this: If you don't absolutely 100% have clarity of the situation then DO NOT involve yourself in a situation that doesn't involve you. Instead, be a good witness. 100% means 100%, not 99.99%. If there is any grey area, don't shoot. 

[Euler]

On 2/9/2023 at 10:53 AM, AlphaKoncepts aka CGS said:

Can your lawyer articulate on your behalf why you felt your or someone else's life was in threat of immediate death or great bodily harm? ... reckless discharge isn't a forcible felony.  

...

 

Bullets already in flight are imminent enough. In Illinois, reckless discharge of a firearm is a Class 4 felony. It is also arguably attempted murder.

[AlphaKoncepts aka CGS]

On 2/9/2023 at 2:42 PM, Euler said:

 

Bullets already in flight are imminent enough. In Illinois, reckless discharge of a firearm is a Class 4 felony. It is also arguably attempted murder.

I said what i said. 

[davel501]

That's why juries have 6-12 people. 

[RandyX]

The way I see it, I or my family need to be in an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm.  If I can hunker down and call 911, I will do that.  I will only use deadly force to stop an "imminent" threat to myself.

 

Many of the other suggestions are good too and, yes, someone shooting in the air is a threat to everyone.  The problem for me is I live in Illinois and run the risk of a far left DA.  If you shoot and kill someone shooting in the air, I wont blame you and you need to hope I am on your jury.  But if you do get charged by a determined district attorney and don't have me or others like me on your jury you have to prove that imminent threat.

 

For me it comes down to, how sure am I to risk 20 to life in jail.  Not to mention the money and time in pre-trial. Nobody is paying me to police the neighborhood nor do I get any immunity protections like some of the police do.  

 

Anyone remember the Conceal Cary holder in Walmart standing at the Customer Service desk when an active shooter started shooting?  He could have ran right out of the entrance that was next to him.  Instead he drew his gun and went deeper into the store to find the shooter.  Had the shooter in his sites when the shooters girlfriend, who nobody knew was there, shot the hero in the head from behind.  This is the result that is even worse that 20 to life.

 

God bless ALL of the CCL holders who intervene and save lives!  Just know your risks and remember the family you may leave behind if you choose to get directly involved.