AWB Litigation

[G214me]

On 1/18/2023 at 9:21 PM, cbunt32 said:

Don't get me wrong, I welcome any win against this nonsense.

I know, the waiting sucks and so does the worrying. But the big win is coming and that's going to be epic.

[cbunt32]

On 1/18/2023 at 9:24 PM, G214me said:

I know, the waiting sucks and so does the worrying. But the big win is coming and that's going to be epic.

The waiting particularly sucks because the Smith & Wesson 5.7 looks pretty sweet. But hopefully these lawsuits take down the assault weapons ban, FOID act, and many aspects of the CCL law. Worth the wait.

[Sol-Invictus]

Yes, all these cool new weapons and I can not order any of them. 

[yurimodin]

On 1/18/2023 at 9:22 PM, gtr2009 said:

Since they went FULL AWB (and you never go FULL AWB) this seems like the best opportunity we've ever had to put a federal stop to all AWB nation wide.  If it's overturned on some silly procedural ground we lose that opportunity and I doubt they'll be this stupid again.

^^this right here......good news is hopefully we get this settled once and for all.

[powderhead]

I'm gonna bet that if we don't get an injunction this is going to be in the courts for at least three years before we see the end of it.  And I'm not confidant the the final outcome is going to be in our favor.  A lot of good people can be harmed it that amount of time.  Who wants to take my bet?

[Capt_Destro]

On 1/19/2023 at 9:14 AM, Sol-Invictus said:

Yes, all these cool new weapons and I can not order any of them. 

Shotshow is torture.

 

Zastava is finally bringing back underfolding M70s, and not that bolt on crap

[milq]

On 1/17/2023 at 5:21 PM, Bubbacs said:

I know I'm the lone opinion on this but what the heck.

I saving any and all donations to the ISRA until they actually do something.  Like file, get injunctions, go to court, bust a move or two.  Cause with their track record with many here (you know you posted before) I'm not interested in lining pockets and getting nothing back.  Best way to win the hearts, minds, wallets is to provide the 2A community with results and then I'll (we maybe) will start to cash flow again!

And yes they have funds, they have contacts, lead by example this time.

Agreed, they quit sending me mail and blocked me from the FB page after I called them out publicly and called the offices over their BS with the FOID issue. They've compromised our rights away on more than one occasion. 

[cybermgk]

On 1/19/2023 at 10:35 AM, powderhead said:

I'm gonna bet that if we don't get an injunction this is going to be in the courts for at least three years before we see the end of it.  And I'm not confidant the the final outcome is going to be in our favor.  A lot of good people can be harmed it that amount of time.  Who wants to take my bet?

Disagree.  SCOTUS is looking at all these laws and cases closely.  In NY, when the Court of appeals stayed the injunction on the new CC travesty, that the lower court did, SCOTUS said, when plaintiffs made an emergency plea to them to overturn that stay, and I paraphrase, "It's precedence that we don't step in this early, so we won't at this time, BUT the lower court made a good reasoned decision based on our rulings, to make the injunction, and the Appeals court, who as of yet, has made an unseasoned stay on that injunction, without any explanation as to why, historically has given their reasoning.  So we will give them time to do so,  BUT, if they don't in a reasonable time, then ask again, and we will intervene".

 

They are NOT happy with these post Bruen laws that directly go against Bruen flagrantly like NY carry law, or would rely on similar rulings in the past, by lower courts, that use 2 tier scrutiny, that is verboten in Bruen (These AWB laws).  All of which thumb their nose at SCOTUS.  IMHO SCOTUS is looking to make some examples of these laws and Courts that support them. 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2023 at 06:58 PM by cybermgk

[davel501]

On 1/19/2023 at 12:44 PM, cybermgk said:

Disagree.  SCOTUS is looking at all these laws and cases closely.  In NY, when the Court of appeals stayed the injunction on the new CC travesty, that the lower court did, SCOTUS said, when plaintiffs made an emergency plea to them to overturn that stay, and I paraphrase, "It's precedence that we don't step in this early, so we won't at this time, BUT the lower court made a good reasoned decision based on our rulings, to make the injunction, and the Appeals court, who as of yet, has made an unseasoned stay on that injunction, without any explanation as to why, historically has given their reasoning.  So we will give them time to do so,  BUT, if they don't in a reasonable time, then ask again, and we will intervene".

 

They are NOT happy with these post Bruen laws that directly go against Bruen flagrantly like NY carry law, or would rely on similar rulings in the past, by lower courts, that use 2 tier scrutiny, that is verboten in Bruen (These AWB laws).  All of which thumb their nose at SCOTUS.  IMHO SCOTUS is looking to make some examples of these laws and Courts that support them. 

 

 

 

^^^ This. Never forget that law is theater. 

[steveTA84]

On 1/19/2023 at 10:56 AM, Capt_Destro said:

Shotshow is torture.

 

Zastava is finally bringing back underfolding M70s, and not that bolt on crap

Forget that, did you see the PSA Stg44? 😳. But yeah, those underfolders are nice 

[Capt_Destro]

On 1/19/2023 at 2:15 PM, steveTA84 said:

Forget that, did you see the PSA Stg44? 😳. But yeah, those underfolders are nice 

 

PSA stopped shipping to my location awhile back, so I haven't really paid much attention lol. But damn that looks neat honestly. 

[steveTA84]

On 1/19/2023 at 2:22 PM, Capt_Destro said:

 

PSA stopped shipping to my location awhile back, so I haven't really paid much attention lol. But damn that looks neat honestly. 

Yes, and options are .223, .300blk, 7.62x39 and also the original 8mm kurz. MSRP $2k, but is designed to be used and abused, not a toy 

 

PSA is starting a whole new series, the Battlefield series of firearms. Working and 100% useable replicas of relic military firearms 

Edited January 19, 2023 at 08:26 PM by steveTA84

[yurimodin]

On 1/19/2023 at 2:24 PM, steveTA84 said:

Yes, and options are .223, .300blk, 7.62x39 and also the original 8mm kurz. MSRP $2k, but is designed to be used and abused, not a toy 

 

PSA is starting a whole new series, the Battlefield series of firearms. Working and 100% useable replicas of relic military firearms 

[Capt_Destro]

On 1/19/2023 at 2:24 PM, steveTA84 said:

Yes, and options are .223, .300blk, 7.62x39 and also the original 8mm kurz. MSRP $2k, but is designed to be used and abused, not a toy 

 

PSA is starting a whole new series, the Battlefield series of firearms. Working and 100% useable replicas of relic military firearms 

Might be nice in 7.62x39. I mean I'd keep the thing 30 cal for sure. But I bet the magazine curvature would look really goofy. 300 blk might be a good compromise?

Edited January 19, 2023 at 09:04 PM by Capt_Destro

[powderhead]

With all due respect, can we keep this discussion on track, which is assault weapons ban litigation.  There are other forums to talk about recent firearms coming on the market.

Thank you.

[hetzen]

When do we hear back on an injection in the ISRA case?

[Upholder]

On 1/19/2023 at 9:12 PM, hetzen said:

When do we hear back on an injection in the ISRA case?

 

The ISRA case is just getting started.  There has only been a complaint filed and a judge assigned so far.  No hearings, no responses, etc yet,  It will likely take a few weeks, minimum.

[jim123]

On 1/19/2023 at 9:14 AM, Sol-Invictus said:

Yes, all these cool new weapons and I can not order any of them. 

The rule #1...have a gun... gym shorts pocket carry...price of 3 party size pizzas delivered....

 

https://gun.deals/product/diamondback-db9-g4-9mm-310-61-black-black-stainless-steel-slide-black-polymer-grip-15865-add

[Euler]

Just a little vocabulary:

 

There are essentially 3 levels to blocking enforcement of a law.

1. Temporary restraining order
2. Preliminary injunction
3. Permanent injunction

 

A TRO stops immediate enforcement until there can be a fully-briefed hearing on a preliminary injunction. The only part of the new law that is immediate is the ban on sales. FFLs may be asking for a TRO so they can keep selling. Once there's a hearing and decision on a preliminary injunction, the TRO will be vacated.

 

A preliminary injunction results after a fully-briefed hearing prior to trial, usually because the judge thinks the state will lose at trial, anyway. Like the TRO, the idea is to maintain the status quo until the court can review the new law. Possession of mags after April 10 would be a good additional candidate for a temporary injunction, since there's unlikely to be a final decision on anything before April, but plenty of time to hold a hearing. There may or may not be a decision on registration before January next year.

 

A permanent injunction would be the result of a final decision/opinion based on the case.

 

Also, since states have deep pockets (your pockets, my pockets, everybody's pockets), if it loses it will appeal.

 

IANAL

[mab22]

On 1/19/2023 at 9:54 PM, Euler said:

Just a little vocabulary:

 

There are essentially 3 levels to blocking enforcement of a law.

1. Temporary restraining order
2. Preliminary injunction
3. Permanent injunction

 

A TRO stops immediate enforcement until there can be a fully-briefed hearing on a preliminary injunction. The only part of the new law that is immediate is the ban on sales. FFLs may be asking for a TRO so they can keep selling. Once there's a hearing and decision on a preliminary injunction, the TRO will be vacated.

 

A preliminary injunction results after a fully-briefed hearing prior to trial, usually because the judge thinks the state will lose at trial, anyway. Like the TRO, the idea is to maintain the status quo until the court can review the new law. Possession of mags after April 10 would be a good additional candidate for a temporary injunction, since there's unlikely to be a final decision on anything before April, but plenty of time to hold a hearing. There may or may not be a decision on registration before January next year.

 

A permanent injunction would be the result of a final decision/opinion based on the case.

 

Also, since states have deep pockets (your pockets, my pockets, everybody's pockets), if it loses it will appeal.

 

IANAL

So if we get any kind of TRO, Back up the truck and load up on any banned items you want to purchase while you can?

 

[Euler]

On 1/19/2023 at 11:16 PM, mab22 said:

So if we get any kind of TRO, Back up the truck and load up on any banned items you want to purchase while you can?

 

A TRO would be more for the vendors than for the customers, but if that's how you want to use it, okay. I recall that when the restraining order against CA's mag ban went into effect temporarily a while ago, there was quite the buying frenzy, and mail order places prioritized selling into CA for as long as it lasted. A similar thing happened in OR.

[gtr2009]

Good interview with Michel who is leading the forthcoming IGRA suit.

https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2023/01/19/2a-attorney-weighs-in-on-il-gun-mag-ban-n66431

 

[Tvandermyde]

We will be filing in the morning. was trying to get it done tonight but a few things slowed us down a bit as we dot "I"s and cross Ts. Understand this will be the complaint first followed by motion for injunction. And before people get too excited, we are planning more than one suit. we think the issues are to big for cramming them in a single suit and with page limitations, we don't want to short the arguments we will need to make due to page limitations. 

 

So this one first, followed by motion for injunction, then on to suit/step #2. . . once it is filed I think you guys will see the plan of attack we are laying out and that we are thinking about this in a 4 dimensional way. We ain't playing chutes and ladders here

 

I would remind you that SAF is covering all of the ISRA fees in there suit. Where as this little band of rebels is having to fund their own suit to address the issues we think important, and once filed I can talk about those more openly. Just like the way we go after the mag stuff, others here have caught on to a few issues, but like that guy use to say on thr infomercial -- but wait there's more. . . 

 

So any donation our way is appreciated.

[2A4Cook]

I would imagine Swami will file a motion to consolidate ...

[r4ndy]

Why file the suit just yet if the procedural suit forces them to start over? Would think there is no reason to tip them off on approach to the suit.

Edited January 24, 2023 at 12:50 AM by r4ndy

[mab22]

On 1/23/2023 at 5:05 PM, Tvandermyde said:

We will be filing in the morning. was trying to get it done tonight but a few things slowed us down a bit as we dot "I"s and cross Ts. Understand this will be the complaint first followed by motion for injunction. And before people get too excited, we are planning more than one suit. we think the issues are to big for cramming them in a single suit and with page limitations, we don't want to short the arguments we will need to make due to page limitations. 

 

So this one first, followed by motion for injunction, then on to suit/step #2. . . once it is filed I think you guys will see the plan of attack we are laying out and that we are thinking about this in a 4 dimensional way. We ain't playing chutes and ladders here

 

I would remind you that SAF is covering all of the ISRA fees in there suit. Where as this little band of rebels is having to fund their own suit to address the issues we think important, and once filed I can talk about those more openly. Just like the way we go after the mag stuff, others here have caught on to a few issues, but like that guy use to say on thr infomercial -- but wait there's more. . . 

 

So any donation our way is appreciated.

 

Do you have a link to where people would go to make a donation?

 

[Yeti]

On 1/23/2023 at 5:05 PM, Tvandermyde said:

I would remind you that SAF is covering all of the ISRA fees in there suit.

Great to hear you are filing!  I will be donating.

 

For what it is worth, Alan Gottlieb says that the ISRA did donate $50,000 to the SAF to support lawsuits here at about 17:50.

https://armedamericanradio.org/2023/01/23/01-22-2023-hr-1-alan-gottlieb-and-russell-stuart-talk-gun-laws-and-court-cases-in-il-and-ca/

 

Not a fan of ISRA leadership at this time but it is good to know where the $ is going.  I am sure the total bill for the SAF will be much larger and I am sure your case will be huge $$$ as well.  
 

My credit card will be hotter than my “assault barrel” after a range day from all the places to donate but this is is a battle that must be fought.

[ScopeEye]

On 1/23/2023 at 5:05 PM, Tvandermyde said:

We will be filing in the morning. was trying to get it done tonight but a few things slowed us down a bit as we dot "I"s and cross Ts. Understand this will be the complaint first followed by motion for injunction. And before people get too excited, we are planning more than one suit. we think the issues are to big for cramming them in a single suit and with page limitations, we don't want to short the arguments we will need to make due to page limitations. 

 

So this one first, followed by motion for injunction, then on to suit/step #2. . . once it is filed I think you guys will see the plan of attack we are laying out and that we are thinking about this in a 4 dimensional way. We ain't playing chutes and ladders here

 

I would remind you that SAF is covering all of the ISRA fees in there suit. Where as this little band of rebels is having to fund their own suit to address the issues we think important, and once filed I can talk about those more openly. Just like the way we go after the mag stuff, others here have caught on to a few issues, but like that guy use to say on thr infomercial -- but wait there's more. . . 

 

So any donation our way is appreciated.

"So Donation our way is appreciated."

 

Our way as in IL Carry,  SAF and or ISRA?

 

I'll be throwing more money in,  just want to direct it to where is best...

 

 

 

[gunuser17]

These are the three plaintiffs that were mentioned in the very beginning as being involved in this planned case:

Second Amendment Law Center (SALC)

https://secure.2alc.org/contribute

 

Federal Firearms Licensees of Illinois  (FFL-IL)

https://fflil.org/donate-new/

 

Aurora Sportsmen’s Club

https://aurorasc.wufoo.com/forms/m1aqqf7i1cz9u8t

[steveTA84]

Supposedly a class action is dropping tomorrow too led by Rep Dan Caulkins