AWB Litigation

[CAAWBIL]

Where can I find info on the 3 amigos? Seem to be striking out on that. Is this just 3 people that organized to file a suit? I'm looking for an example and framework to try and gather local people or at least share the process to help get people off the benches and in the fight. Thanks all

[Tvandermyde]

On 1/17/2023 at 6:23 PM, AlphaKoncepts aka CGS said:

I don't feel as if we are rushing when multiple organizations stated publicly that the law suits were ready and waiting. Seems to me they may have been exaggerating? 

To be fair had it been passed an 30 before they sent it to him and then no lawsuit day 1 that would be a fair critic

 

this is a bit different

[davel501]

On 1/17/2023 at 10:07 PM, Tvandermyde said:

To be fair had it been passed an 30 before they sent it to him and then no lawsuit day 1 that would be a fair critic

 

this is a bit different

 

I think we all prefer it takes as much time as it takes to do it right and win in court on the first try. 

[mab22]

On 1/17/2023 at 5:21 PM, Bubbacs said:

I know I'm the lone opinion on this but what the heck.

I saving any and all donations to the ISRA until they actually do something.  Like file, get injunctions, go to court, bust a move or two.  Cause with their track record with many here (you know you posted before) I'm not interested in lining pockets and getting nothing back.  Best way to win the hearts, minds, wallets is to provide the 2A community with results and then I'll (we maybe) will start to cash flow again!

And yes they have funds, they have contacts, lead by example this time.

You are not the lone opinion when it comes to ISRA.

For me, they have been a disappointment since the day I signed up.

 

 

[Upholder]

The big case has been filed in Federal court, the Southern District of Illinois

 

[Dumak_from_arfcom]

On 1/18/2023 at 12:02 AM, Upholder said:

The big case has been filed in Federal court, the Southern District of Illinois

 

That isn't Todd's group, is it?   Really, the rush to be first has me worried.  This has to be done correctly or they could weaken Bruen for everyone.  I don't fracking trust ISRA and I hope the lawyer that shall not be named isn't involved.  =

[357]

On 1/18/2023 at 2:04 AM, Dumak_from_arfcom said:

That isn't Todd's group, is it?   Really, the rush to be first has me worried.  This has to be done correctly or they could weaken Bruen for everyone.  I don't fracking trust ISRA and I hope the lawyer that shall not be named isn't involved.  =

The no rush and waiting has me worried. I think the more we wait the harder it will be to overturn and we look weak. The see you in court were empty threats. The bill was proposed more than a month ago and not much was changed and the law wasn't a surprise, lawsuits should have been filed the next day. Don't have much faith and the people representing us are divided and don't think are up to the task and not enough money. The anti freedom people have free attorneys and billions of dollars. I think we're screwed and the state knows it, I hope I'm wrong.

[steveTA84]

https://www.firearmspolicy.org/harrel

[gtr2009]

I guess you have to pick and choose what aspects of the law to challenge, but reading the ISRA brief I don't see any challenge to the shotgun ban, or threaded barrels on pistols.  You'd think since any semi-auto shotgun that holds more than 4 2.75" shells is now banned, they'd have focused on that, too, and we'd also see some hunting organizations piling into these suits.

[AlphaKoncepts aka CGS]

On 1/17/2023 at 10:05 PM, CAAWBIL said:

Where can I find info on the 3 amigos? Seem to be striking out on that. Is this just 3 people that organized to file a suit? I'm looking for an example and framework to try and gather local people or at least share the process to help get people off the benches and in the fight. Thanks all

Langley et al. 

[yurimodin]

On 1/17/2023 at 10:07 PM, Tvandermyde said:

To be fair had it been passed an 30 before they sent it to him and then no lawsuit day 1 that would be a fair critic

 

this is a bit different

Get your ducks in a row, take your time, and do this right. Ppl are bit**ing and moaning like babies. It has been signed for barely a week WITH the MLK holiday on Monday. Ppl need to take a chill pill and let you guys do what you do well(THANK YOU Todd).

 

 

[yurimodin]

On 1/17/2023 at 6:49 PM, crufflesmuth said:

We also need to stop caring. They don't care how articulate, right, or sound your arguments are - the only thing which matters to people like Donald Harmon, Emmanuel Welch and JB Pritzker is a court telling them, 'NO'. 

This is the way. The Statist religion of the left(communism) is not overcome with facts and logic but with the only currency they respect, POWER.

[Quiet Observer]

On 1/12/2023 at 3:07 PM, Dumak_from_arfcom said:

I do not find it coincidence that the CC act and AWB have been intermingled together with the FOID act.   I think it was done on purpose and that purpose is to make it harder for a judge (that probably knows nothing about firearms) to dissect.  With each of those laws intermingled together the State of IL is going to argue that vacating one will result in to much chaos in the other laws because they all work in accordance with the FOID and they'll argue vice versa.   

 

Our council is going to need to be familiar with all 3 laws in order to educate a judge so that the judge doesn't default to believing the State's argument that the sky will fall if something is repealed and put forth a ruling based on an interest balancing approach.

  

 

The judges do not need to know anything about firearms. Their decision is does, or does not, the law violate the constitutions of the state and/or the U.S. The appropriate courts will make that decision. I am sure that the lawyers hired by the 2A groups are familiar with our law, as well as those of other states, previous decisions of many courts, and the U.S. and Illinois constitutions. This is not their first rodeo.

[NakPPI]

On 1/18/2023 at 2:04 AM, Dumak_from_arfcom said:

That isn't Todd's group, is it?   Really, the rush to be first has me worried.  This has to be done correctly or they could weaken Bruen for everyone.  I don't fracking trust ISRA and I hope the lawyer that shall not be named isn't involved.  =

 

This was not Todd's group. The ISRA lawsuit is garbage honestly. It leaves a lot of arguments on the table. It's a one count 2A violation complaint. Meaning, if the court were to disagree on 2A, the case is over. They gave the Court no room to determine all of the OTHER constitutional issues in the statute that may or may not be 2A, but would still result in a win.

 

Not impressed, 1 star, would not recommend. 🙂

[speedbump]

On 1/18/2023 at 9:52 AM, yurimodin said:

Get your ducks in a row, take your time, and do this right. Ppl are bit**ing and moaning like babies. It has been signed for barely a week WITH the MLK holiday on Monday. Ppl need to take a chill pill and let you guys do what you do well(THANK YOU Todd).

 

 

 

Agreed

[357]

On 1/18/2023 at 11:08 AM, NakPPI said:

 

This was not Todd's group. The ISRA lawsuit is garbage honestly. It leaves a lot of arguments on the table. It's a one count 2A violation complaint. Meaning, if the court were to disagree on 2A, the case is over. They gave the Court no room to determine all of the OTHER constitutional issues in the statute that may or may not be 2A, but would still result in a win.

 

Not impressed, 1 star, would not recommend. 🙂

Pathetic and to be expected from them. Compromise and carve out is what they do best. Acting like they're doing something, wouldn't be surprised if they're controlled opposition. Need a change in leadership.

[G214me]

On 1/18/2023 at 11:08 AM, NakPPI said:

 

This was not Todd's group. The ISRA lawsuit is garbage honestly. It leaves a lot of arguments on the table. It's a one count 2A violation complaint. Meaning, if the court were to disagree on 2A, the case is over. They gave the Court no room to determine all of the OTHER constitutional issues in the statute that may or may not be 2A, but would still result in a win.

 

Not impressed, 1 star, would not recommend. 🙂

I wish Richard "sit down at the table " Pearson would stay out of the way.

[Matt B]

Well apparently the ISRA had a good draw for a judge and got a Trump appointee who was opposed by anti gun groups. So at least they have a good start.

[Pies72618]

On 1/18/2023 at 7:32 AM, gtr2009 said:

I guess you have to pick and choose what aspects of the law to challenge, but reading the ISRA brief I don't see any challenge to the shotgun ban, or threaded barrels on pistols.  You'd think since any semi-auto shotgun that holds more than 4 2.75" shells is now banned, they'd have focused on that, too, and we'd also see some hunting organizations piling into these suits.

I missed the 4-2.75" shell restriction in the law. Would you mind pointing me to the section? I know there is concern that some shotguns chambered for (or adapted to use) mini mags could an issue if they hold more than 10. Benelli SBE3 Turkey shotguns are out due to pistol grips (and other pistol grip turkey shotguns). 

 

Appreciate any clarification.

[mousegun6]

On 1/18/2023 at 6:56 AM, steveTA84 said:

https://www.firearmspolicy.org/harrel

Thanks for posting this Steve. I read the complaint and I think it's a great start.

[gtr2009]

On 1/18/2023 at 4:46 PM, Pies72618 said:

I missed the 4-2.75" shell restriction in the law. Would you mind pointing me to the section? I know there is concern that some shotguns chambered for (or adapted to use) mini mags could an issue if they hold more than 10. Benelli SBE3 Turkey shotguns are out due to pistol grips (and other pistol grip turkey shotguns). 

 

Appreciate any clarification.

6 mini shells will fit in a shotgun that can hold 4 2.75" shells. As far as I can tell, the law does not define "round" as any specific kind of round, so a 1.75" shell is just as much a round as a 2.75" shell.  The law also doesn't say the shotgun has to cycle, it only speaks to how many rounds the magazine can hold.  Not to mention - if the AR15 parts theory holds true that would also seem to apply to shotguns that meet the magazine criteria.

[gtr2009]

Also does DeVore's lawsuit suck?  If the law is enjoined in state court on procedural grounds does that make the federal cases moot?  If so they'll (the clowns) just do it again and no precedent can be created.  Seems like at best it'd be a pyrrhic victory and a waste of everyone's time.

[gunuser17]

If DeVore is successful in obtaining a TRO or preliminary injunction, that will not moot the federal cases.  The law is still on the books and the FFLs would still be not want to order new AR inventory since they could still get stuck with it if the injunction were lifted.  More importantly, all the Illinois House would have to do is reintroduce and pass a new bill identical to the current challenged law following the legislative steps in proper order.  The senate then passes the bill in proper order and the Gov signs.  So, in my mine, the Devore case only delays the inevitable and, perhaps, slows down the legislative process in the future.  But with a super majority, does anyone doubt that any bill the democrats want will be passed?

[Flynn]

On 1/18/2023 at 6:58 PM, gtr2009 said:

Also does DeVore's lawsuit suck?  If the law is enjoined in state court on procedural grounds does that make the federal cases moot?  If so they'll (the clowns) just do it again and no precedent can be created.  Seems like at best it'd be a pyrrhic victory and a waste of everyone's time.

 

No it would not moot any other cases as the law still exist, the fact the court may pause it to be enforced doesn't change the fact it still exist.

[cbunt32]

Also, Devore's lawsuit only applies to the 860 or so plaintiffs named in the suit. Doesnt help the rest of us.

[Pies72618]

On 1/18/2023 at 6:26 PM, gtr2009 said:

6 mini shells will fit in a shotgun that can hold 4 2.75" shells. As far as I can tell, the law does not define "round" as any specific kind of round, so a 1.75" shell is just as much a round as a 2.75" shell.  The law also doesn't say the shotgun has to cycle, it only speaks to how many rounds the magazine can hold.  Not to mention - if the AR15 parts theory holds true that would also seem to apply to shotguns that meet the magazine criteria.

We are using what the gun is chambered for. If the semi auto shotgun says chambered for 2.75/3/3.5 and is 5+1 using 2.75, it's good.  If it's like some semi auto shotguns that are chambered for 1.75, 2.75, or 3 (for example some Mossbergs), you may have issues. I'm not worried about a 5+1 2.75" chamber causing issues. If the buyer modifies the gun to accept minis that's on them. No different than an owner replacing a 10 round mag with a 30 round magazine--that's on them. 

 

I'm not advising anyone to follow what we are doing.  But after discussing with our legal folks I'm not too concerned. I won't be selling any semi autos that are factory designed to hold more than 5. 

[steveTA84]

On 1/18/2023 at 8:32 PM, cbunt32 said:

Also, Devore's lawsuit only applies to the 860 or so plaintiffs named in the suit. Doesnt help the rest of us.

If you’re in the county where one of the many plaintiffs resides, you might have some options. Either way, IF there’s a sort of win on Friday, it will set off a chain reaction (just a prediction)

[G214me]

On 1/18/2023 at 8:32 PM, cbunt32 said:

Also, Devore's lawsuit only applies to the 860 or so plaintiffs named in the suit. Doesnt help the rest of us.

Devore's lawsuit getting a win will be the first step in the whole mess collapsing. It will let everyone know where the ban is going ( down the bowl ), It will show the sheriffs are correct and that JB gas bag is a fool trying to play dictator. Commie Rauol will certainly know he's in for an embarrassing fail if he can't even pull this one off, and it'll be a morale boost for us. In the end we'll be free from this garbage just like the 860 plaintiffs.

[cbunt32]

On 1/18/2023 at 9:19 PM, G214me said:

Devore's lawsuit getting a win will be the first step in the whole mess collapsing. It will let everyone know where the ban is going ( down the bowl ), It will show the sheriffs are correct and that JB gas bag is a fool trying to play dictator. Commie Rauol will certainly know he's in for an embarrassing fail if he can't even pull this one off, and it'll be a morale boost for us. In the end we'll be free from this garbage just like the 860 plaintiffs.

Don't get me wrong, I welcome any win against this nonsense.

[gtr2009]

On 1/18/2023 at 7:28 PM, Flynn said:

 

No it would not moot any other cases as the law still exist, the fact the court may pause it to be enforced doesn't change the fact it still exist.

I shouldn't have used the word enjoined, I meant enjoined and then overturned.  If that happens, there is no law anymore.  Seems kind of a waste of time - who cares how they pass the laws, they'll figure out some other corrupt sneaky underhanded method if they can't do it again like this.  I can't figure out why they bother with such idiocy when they have a super majority anyway.

 

Since they went FULL AWB (and you never go FULL AWB) this seems like the best opportunity we've ever had to put a federal stop to all AWB nation wide.  If it's overturned on some silly procedural ground we lose that opportunity and I doubt they'll be this stupid again.