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This needs to be said, so I'll say it


JDW

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On 1/12/2023 at 8:28 AM, Felixd said:

Everything stated so far is cogent and valid. From these things we need to develop marketing strategies that will counter the emotional rhetoric of those who oppose us. The media and leftists portray us as blubbering sexist and racist wackos in pickup trucks or super right flag wavers who want the country to return to 1950. It’s time we develop our image to compliment a sound strategy for the future.
 

This may leave a bad taste for some on our side, but change is needed. The cost of doing what we’ve been doing, and coming up short, is too great. We need to recognize that just telling your elected official of your position is not enough. We need one organization with one mission, with one strategy, and one pool of funds. Our diffused approach is not working. We need to create strong, pointed, political power that can be brought to bear as needed. Because the political landscape has changed in Illinois, If we don’t change we’ll always be at the mercy of a court to bail us out. We need to shape the political landscape not react to it. 

Agreed, coordinated effort and coming together as one team is needed, but our side needs to grow up and not act like petulant children.  

 

When the gun dealer bill was gaining traction, we had two camps for the pro gun side....one who correctly wasn't going to negotiate, and the other who sat at the table and helped negotiate and caused a setback by allowing them a "win" with the gun dealer licensing act.  

 

It was only until the last couple weeks that I've seen progress and unity in the gun groups.  The biggest challenge is getting people to prioritize what is important.  A great example would be, and I'm just making up a scenario here, but one group is totally focused on doing away with our suppressor ban.  While you'd be challenged to find a single gun owner who would oppose it, there are many other things that take precedence.  So the gun groups say "hey, we want that too, but we have to focus on this first so that we open the door to making that challenge significantly easier".  What normally follows is the other group stamps their feet and throws the baby out with the bathwater.  They go on social media and start calling everyone Fudds, and basically doing nothing helpful.  If they stopped acting like children for a moment and took the time to understand the strategy of why their pet project isn't first on the list, we'd get a lot further.  

 

In the grand scheme of things, usually the people that I'm pointing out here are the ones who literally do nothing....they don't donate, they don't make calls.....they do absolutely nothing but complain.  I'm sorry, but if you're not doing anything to help, you need to sit this one out because hearing a childlike tantrum being thrown just makes us look more like the meme the other side has turned us into.  

 

Just wanted to add:  one of the biggest challenges is getting all the powers that be with our various pro gun orgs onto the same page and putting their own egos aside.  While I believe our odds of winning these challenges is upwards of ninety something percent, how we chip away at other things requires unity in our pro gun orgs otherwise these scumbag politicians will find another way to weasel in some language that has us right back in court.  Court costs mean nothing to them because their legal fees come from our taxes.  Their goal would be to make it too costly to continue court challenges.  But like that check that city of Chicago had to cut to the NRA after winning that court challenge over a decade ago, I'm looking forward to seeing the same from the state of Illinois to every gun group after the courts rule in our favor.  

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On 1/12/2023 at 8:46 AM, GunCollector said:

Also, where are the manufacturers in supporting legal efforts?  They just lost 12M potential customers!!

Manufacturers are exempted. They might have spent a couple of $$$ twisting a few IL Senators at the very end but it's business as usual for them. Just don't ship to IL! Working with PSA for 3yrs was profitable but was also the biggest pain in the a$$ I had. With that said, it is easier to get rid of the headache IL customers had become and conduct business with friendlier state governments and FFL Dealers where you're not worried about the political climate every year.

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On 1/12/2023 at 8:09 AM, Vodoun da Vinci said:

The worst thing we can do as gun owners is threaten "from my cold dead hands" and insinuate that Politicians need to be hanged and such.

 

This is why many of these whack jobs want US disarmed.....violent rhetoric and extremist epithets make the gun community look scary to people not familiar with this culture. We are, US gun owners, our own worst enemies at times.

 

This 100%!!  I've written before about the fact that I've had to avoid associating with gun rights groups in the past and absolutely cringe when the weekly ISRA bulletin comes out because of the assumption in both places that by receiving this message, I must belong to the smallest, most extreme group of conservatives one can imagine.  I'm an independent, not a die-hard conservative, and I can take only so much rhetoric that assumes that because I believe in gun rights, I must also believe in: all forms of conservative Christian ideology (extreme pro-life, gay-bashing etc.), COVID conspiracies, Donald Trump/stop-the-steal, anti-mask/anti-vax, anti-semitism, bigotry etc. etc..  

Very few if any of us here likely believe in all of those things, but I routinely see one or more of those assumptions made amongst our community (not just on IC) with absolute derision for anyone who dares disagree.  This is to say nothing of the fact that the largest growth in firearm owners and potential gun supporters in the last several years is amongst genuinely left-wing democrats who are starting to recognize some of the things we've been saying for years, and we have people on our side saying if you've ever voted democrat, you're a traitor to the U.S.A.  

 

So, I would suggest that a little empathy and understanding, and as many have said, setting aside our differences to focus on our commonality will go a long way.  I've personally had many conversations with liberal friends that were cordial and civil wherein they often conclude with, "I have to actually agree with a lot of what you're saying, but you're also the only person who's ever tried talking to me about this instead of shouting and threatening me!".  Look around your LGS, and you're likely to find at least one person there who looks a little uncomfortable and intimidated.  When I talk to them, I find they're often relieved just to not have to fake agreement with another fist-pounding, conspiracy-laden conservative diatribe.

 

Let's let go of drawing lines around everything and start making real connections with people who could be on our side if we would only let them.  

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On 1/12/2023 at 10:11 AM, TargetCollector said:

So, I would suggest that a little empathy and understanding...

 

Let's let go of drawing lines around everything and start making real connections with people who could be on our side if we would only let them.  

 

Yep!

To win here, we need the support of everyone.

 

Cheers,

Tim

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On 1/12/2023 at 10:11 AM, TargetCollector said:

 

This 100%!!  I've written before about the fact that I've had to avoid associating with gun rights groups in the past and absolutely cringe when the weekly ISRA bulletin comes out because of the assumption in both places that by receiving this message, I must belong to the smallest, most extreme group of conservatives one can imagine.  I'm an independent, not a die-hard conservative, and I can take only so much rhetoric that assumes that because I believe in gun rights, I must also believe in: all forms of conservative Christian ideology (extreme pro-life, gay-bashing etc.), COVID conspiracies, Donald Trump/stop-the-steal, anti-mask/anti-vax, anti-semitism, bigotry etc. etc..  

Very few if any of us here likely believe in all of those things, but I routinely see one or more of those assumptions made amongst our community (not just on IC) with absolute derision for anyone who dares disagree.  This is to say nothing of the fact that the largest growth in firearm owners and potential gun supporters in the last several years is amongst genuinely left-wing democrats who are starting to recognize some of the things we've been saying for years, and we have people on our side saying if you've ever voted democrat, you're a traitor to the U.S.A.  

 

So, I would suggest that a little empathy and understanding, and as many have said, setting aside our differences to focus on our commonality will go a long way.  I've personally had many conversations with liberal friends that were cordial and civil wherein they often conclude with, "I have to actually agree with a lot of what you're saying, but you're also the only person who's ever tried talking to me about this instead of shouting and threatening me!".  Look around your LGS, and you're likely to find at least one person there who looks a little uncomfortable and intimidated.  When I talk to them, I find they're often relieved just to not have to fake agreement with another fist-pounding, conspiracy-laden conservative diatribe.

 

Let's let go of drawing lines around everything and start making real connections with people who could be on our side if we would only let them.  

Well said and I agree.

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On 1/12/2023 at 8:09 AM, Vodoun da Vinci said:

Been here going on 9 years now.....don't/didn't participate in a lot of discussions until this recent crises because of the "tone" of many discussions and many Forumites who want to turn everything into a Hate Speech of some kind (or insinuate if not say outright that people and politicians who disagree with them should be visited with violence) and *this* kind of stuff is *why* a lot of these people want US disarmed.

 

In general. firearm forums have not done the gun owning community any favors by letting folks who own firearms threaten, posture, bully, and act like the very thugs we want to defend ourselves against. This forum seems a lot more focused on making gun owners and firearms enthusiasts look more sane and centered lately and that's why I'm back. The worst thing we can do as gun owners is threaten "from my cold dead hands" and insinuate that Politicians need to be hanged and such.

 

This is why many of these whack jobs want US disarmed.....violent rhetoric and extremist epithets make the gun community look scary to people not familiar with this culture. We are, US gun owners, our own worst enemies at times.

 

It needed to be said and I said it. It's much better than it was a few years ago and I thank Mauserme, Molly B and the rest for setting the "tone" and hope to participate more. Fellow Firearms Enthusiasts, this is not the time in history nor the circumstances to intimate extremist viewpoints. Think what you want but guard your tone and we'll have much better luck convincing people outside our gun culture that this current situation will not solve any problems but will likely make things worse. Please guard your "tone" and choose your words carefully.

 

Any person who has showed up on this forum with the rhetoric you refer to has been exited from said forum swiftly. This forum is built on responsible, legal, and proper opposition. That's why this is the only forum I'm on. I've seen far too many yahoos in YouTube comments with the rhetoric you speak of. It's useless and indeed gives firearms owners a bad rep. I have always stressed being respectful, articulate, and polite when communicating with reps and other officials. Using any other tone will get you put on ignore instantly. 

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On 1/12/2023 at 9:41 AM, ealcala31 said:

Manufacturers are exempted. They might have spent a couple of $$$ twisting a few IL Senators at the very end but it's business as usual for them. Just don't ship to IL! Working with PSA for 3yrs was profitable but was also the biggest pain in the a$$ I had. With that said, it is easier to get rid of the headache IL customers had become and conduct business with friendlier state governments and FFL Dealers where you're not worried about the political climate every year.

This goes back to the Springfield Armory and Rock River Arms carve out. There's simply no denying it. Those guys were looking big picture years ago. Of course the SA owner denied it, but i never believed a single word he's said since. that's my opinion. 

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On 1/12/2023 at 10:56 AM, JDW said:

 

Any person who has showed up on this forum with the rhetoric you refer to has been exited from said forum swiftly. This forum is built on responsible, legal, and proper opposition. That's why this is the only forum I'm on. I've seen far too many yahoos in YouTube comments with the rhetoric you speak of. It's useless and indeed gives firearms owners a bad rep. I have always stressed being respectful, articulate, and polite when communicating with reps and other officials. Using any other tone will get you put on ignore instantly. 

Amen! You can respectfully say no, not one more compromise. That is why I have had a problem with ISRA. I no longer want or desire to hear " We had to, or it could have been worse" We compromised, and it got worse. We have to stand strong. We are dealing with disingenuous people that will keep disrespecting folks that compromise.  

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I pretty much agree with what all of you are saying.  I've been viewing this forum for well over a decade, but didn't register for many years, and I still hardly post.  I do contribute some money, but it's not a lot.  Overall I am guilty of taking more than I give back, but unfortunately I'm just a regular (typical?) gun owner without any real expertise, so I don't have a lot of value to really give.  I think a lot of folks are reluctant to have much visibility - sort of like when pollsters ask if people own guns, how many are wary and reticent to be truthful.   

 

Some of the issues raised here speak to the true grass roots level of the 2A movement - it is fractured because it is home-grown.  We have seen what happens with the big organizations -they can become self-serving and lose touch with the true direction.  That's one great thing about Illinois Carry - they stay on target!  I think at this point, for me, the best thing to do is watch the lawsuits evolve and try to support those who are fighting for us with as much cash as possible.

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Your post assumes something.

 

This assumes the politicians in the state of IL are listening to their constituents and not to the LWW groups that pad their campaign contribution accounts.

 

So you have a leftocrat politician who thinks one way and one way only on issue #4.

He submits a bill about issue #4 which supports his view. 

He has cronies who donated [VERY LARGE SUMS OF MONEY] to his campaign who support issue #4, who agree with his view.

How many constituents OPPOSING issue #4 does it take for this politician to say "uncle" and yank the legislation or vote against it?

 

Now imagine that a supermajority of politicians are like this in the IL house?  IL Senate?

 

This is why we get steamrolled a lot.

 

This is why we get all these unconstitutional laws passed.

 

 

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On 1/12/2023 at 11:02 AM, JDW said:

This goes back to the Springfield Armory and Rock River Arms carve out. There's simply no denying it. Those guys were looking big picture years ago. Of course the SA owner denied it, but i never believed a single word he's said since. that's my opinion. 

💯

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They were going to do this anyway. They have been emboldened by the now exposed 2 tiers of American Just-Us and their ability to "fortify" elections. On top of that this is a massive temper tantrum against Bruen and RvW being overturned.

 

Dems have had both houses and the Governors mansion before but they didn't do it because they actually had to worry about elections.

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While I’m trying to pay attention to this issue, more important things are taking priority. I found out a couple of days ago that friend died in a diving (scuba) accident. Hit me hard. I even decided not to dive this weekend because my head is not in the right place. 
 

Lots of people have a ton going on in their lives that make doing more than keeping up with the mainstream news difficult. 

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On 1/12/2023 at 12:03 PM, yurimodin said:

They were going to do this anyway. They have been emboldened by the now exposed 2 tiers of American Just-Us and their ability to "fortify" elections. On top of that this is a massive temper tantrum against Bruen and RvW being overturned.

 

Dems have had both houses and the Governors mansion before but they didn't do it because they actually had to worry about elections.

 

Exactly this. Anyone who thinks anything peaceful we could have done would have made a difference is fooling themselves. Our politicians in IL are not servants they are primarily corrupt, hypocritical and self interested. We are just their ATM. 

 

This ban has been a step in the overall confiscation plan and because of the absolute power position the dems have in this state and the fortunate luck of a crisis (Highland Park) they saw a window to enact and they did. 

 

Witness slips don’t hold any sway anymore if they ever did.

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On 1/12/2023 at 12:24 PM, Marie said:

While I’m trying to pay attention to this issue, more important things are taking priority. I found out a couple of days ago that friend died in a diving (scuba) accident. Hit me hard. I even decided not to dive this weekend because my head is not in the right place. 
 

Lots of people have a ton going on in their lives that make doing more than keeping up with the mainstream news difficult. 

Sorry for your loss!

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Not to hijack the thread, but as a long-time lurker (not sure if I'm a record holder at this point or not), I just want to say this.

 

Over the years I've learned a lot from the tremendous resource that is this forum. When I joined, I learned about the Illinois Bill -> Law process from this forum. I've been filling out witness slips for years based on all the calls to action. Regardless of the topic I was always learning. I've also learned to listen to the adults in the room, and ignore some of the more colorful language. I'm by no means the smartest or most knowledgeable one here, but to any new folks, I offer some free advice.

 

1) We live in a digital world, don't post anything that you wouldn't want a jury to judge you on taken out of context (hopefully it never comes to that).

 

2) As a very wise person once told me "You were born with 2 ears, and 1 mouth. Use them proportionately."

 

Sorry for being long-winded. Back to your scheduled programming.

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There have been a number of great points made in the responses to my post. I feel like it got many of us thinking and that alone is a good move in the right direction, IMO. I want to make it clear, my intent was only to try and get more of us involved. Speaking from my own experience over the years spending time at various shooting ranges and out at our club, I've met people from every walk of life. The only troubling thing I've seen during all those many range trips is a nano percentage of people acting completely irresponsibly. I stress a NANO percentage. Other than that, regardless of our backgrounds or politics, I've had nothing but great and meaningful conversations with hundreds of people I had never met before. I do agree, to an extent with what some have said. We were doomed from the get go on this, regardless. It's a hot button issue. That said, I still believe that there is power in numbers. I'm an optimist. :)  I'm also fully aware of how very busy people are just trying to get by day to day. If I came across in any way that led you to think I was dismissive about that, I  apologize. I've made my point. I've read every response and will continue to read them and give thought to any that follow. Between all of us, I'm confident that in the long run, we'll be okay. As Todd has stated, this will take time. Thanks to everyone who's taken the time to respond. I appreciate all of you, more than you know. Have a good rest of the week. 

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On 1/12/2023 at 10:11 AM, TargetCollector said:

 

This 100%!!  I've written before about the fact that I've had to avoid associating with gun rights groups in the past and absolutely cringe when the weekly ISRA bulletin comes out because of the assumption in both places that by receiving this message, I must belong to the smallest, most extreme group of conservatives one can imagine.  I'm an independent, not a die-hard conservative, and I can take only so much rhetoric that assumes that because I believe in gun rights, I must also believe in: all forms of conservative Christian ideology (extreme pro-life, gay-bashing etc.), COVID conspiracies, Donald Trump/stop-the-steal, anti-mask/anti-vax, anti-semitism, bigotry etc. etc..  

Very few if any of us here likely believe in all of those things, but I routinely see one or more of those assumptions made amongst our community (not just on IC) with absolute derision for anyone who dares disagree.  This is to say nothing of the fact that the largest growth in firearm owners and potential gun supporters in the last several years is amongst genuinely left-wing democrats who are starting to recognize some of the things we've been saying for years, and we have people on our side saying if you've ever voted democrat, you're a traitor to the U.S.A.  

 

So, I would suggest that a little empathy and understanding, and as many have said, setting aside our differences to focus on our commonality will go a long way.  I've personally had many conversations with liberal friends that were cordial and civil wherein they often conclude with, "I have to actually agree with a lot of what you're saying, but you're also the only person who's ever tried talking to me about this instead of shouting and threatening me!".  Look around your LGS, and you're likely to find at least one person there who looks a little uncomfortable and intimidated.  When I talk to them, I find they're often relieved just to not have to fake agreement with another fist-pounding, conspiracy-laden conservative diatribe.

 

Let's let go of drawing lines around everything and start making real connections with people who could be on our side if we would only let them.  


Gun rights people are usually more conservative than democrats.  

Liberals tend to be liberals first and move and vote lockstep.    

Classic Liberals (which you seem to be judging from your post) have all but vanished among modern day democrats as that party has moved further and further left.  

Elections matter. Money to win elections matters even more. We are in this position because we lost to many elections in a row to the wrong people who either don't have the will to stand up against their party, or don't like guns.  Now the deck is stacked against us.  

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I've given money to NRA and SAF and have learned to regret both donations. Mainly due to their alignment with Trump which was at odds with their stated missions. I remember a SAF newsletter apologizing for Trump's bumpstock ban claiming he was just given bad information, instead of the truth that Trump is simply not aligned on 2nd amendment issues. Their other newsletters cozying up to MTG (the AOC of the right) really put another bad taste in my mouth. NRA again promoted Trump, and had Wayne using the NRA as a personal piggy bank.  When I was reading the NRA-ILA's feed they seemed more interested in sharing memes rather than starting legal battles.

 

Being burned in the past, I'll donate to an organization that gets a legal challenge filed first.

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