Any News on the ATF and Braces??

[SiliconSorcerer]

I never gave this much thought before but it you have a (or several ) fiala (a single shot 22) 

 

[defaultdotxbe]

On 1/16/2023 at 1:43 PM, SiliconSorcerer said:

I never gave this much thought before but it you have a (or several ) fiala (a single shot 22) 

 

A few specific pistols with detachable stocks are exempted as C&R firearms, the Fiala is one of them.

https://www.atf.gov/file/128116/download

[SiliconSorcerer]

On 1/16/2023 at 2:46 PM, defaultdotxbe said:

A few specific pistols with detachable stocks are exempted as C&R firearms, the Fiala is one of them.

https://www.atf.gov/file/128116/download

Thanks, I know I (may) have a small pile of them.  I also collect weird 22's. 

I could have possibly machined a 22 completely maybe 20+ years ago but if I had such a thing it would be ghost, so I think it must have been just a dream. 

 

[Upholder]

Word from SHOT show where the ATF was asked point blank:  If they take too long to do the background check as part of the pistol brace amnesty registration, and it reaches the 88 day limit and is automatically closed... they will take the submission materials and start an enforcement action.  It's a trap.

 

Here's an interview with the GOA lawyer that asked the question going over the full scenario:

 

 

[JDW]

@Upholder a YT channel called 2aEDU siad there are a number of traps in the language. It's long and he whines a lot, but he makes some excellent points. Like bump stocks I never bought any pistol braces and don't own any rifles with a barrel shorter than 16". This still infuriates me that a non legislative part of the government can turn millions of law abiding citizens into felons at the stroke of a pen. There's nothing legal about this Pistol Brace deal One day it's perfectly legal and approved, the next day it's not. 2a EDU also brings up some interesting takes on the language in the new rules. Well worth the time investment for anyone who owns one or cares. I watched it because I've seen him break down language before and for a non lawyer he does an amazing job. IMO, anyway...LOL

Edited January 20, 2023 at 02:18 AM by JDW
added a word

[davel501]

Heads up for people thinking about registering. The news out of shot show is that the ATF got caught not thinking this all the way through by a GOA lawyer. He remembered that after 88 days a background check is automatically considered failed and that given the volume most people would come back with failed background checks. He asked the ATF reps there and they confirmed that in case of that expired background check they would begin enforcement actions. Now remember, by submitting the amnesty form 1 you are including all of the information that ATF needs to convict you for having an illegal SBR should that background check fail.

 

Will be interesting to see how this plays out. Hoping one of the lawsuits will save the early participants from any negative consequences. The early advice to wait and see how this evolves before doing anything definitely seems like the best advice.

[defaultdotxbe]

On 1/20/2023 at 12:45 PM, davel501 said:

Heads up for people thinking about registering. The news out of shot show is that the ATF got caught not thinking this all the way through by a GOA lawyer. He remembered that after 88 days a background check is automatically considered failed and that given the volume most people would come back with failed background checks. He asked the ATF reps there and they confirmed that in case of that expired background check they would begin enforcement actions. Now remember, by submitting the amnesty form 1 you are including all of the information that ATF needs to convict you for having an illegal SBR should that background check fail.

 

Will be interesting to see how this plays out. Hoping one of the lawsuits will save the early participants from any negative consequences. The early advice to wait and see how this evolves before doing anything definitely seems like the best advice.

Form 1s regularly take longer than 88 days as it is, so clearly the time to run the background check is only a portion of that. I doubt the load the background check system will be any higher than it is now as they process any new Form 1s

[davel501]

On 1/20/2023 at 1:32 PM, defaultdotxbe said:

Form 1s regularly take longer than 88 days as it is, so clearly the time to run the background check is only a portion of that. I doubt the load the background check system will be any higher than it is now as they process any new Form 1s

 

You gotta do you. I'm just making sure everyone is informed.

[Euler]

The ATF rule on pistol braces (2021R-08F) was published in the Federal Register today (Tuesday). So the 120-day clock starts now.

 

From the ATF website:

 

This rule is effective the date it is published in the Federal Register.  Any weapons with “stabilizing braces” or similar attachments that constitute rifles under the NFA must be registered no later than 120 days after date of publication in the Federal Register; or the short barrel removed and a 16-inch or longer rifle barrel attached to the firearm; or permanently remove and dispose of, or alter, the “stabilizing brace” such that it cannot be reattached; or the firearm is turned in to your local ATF office. Or the firearm is destroyed.

[defaultdotxbe]

I still find it odd they demand you dispose of or alter the brace if you choose to remove it, but don't demand you dispose of or alter the short barrel if you decide to remove that instead.

[Upholder]

The Armed Attorneys in Texas recently put out this video where they discourage destruction after removal, as the ATF says, it's just a part.  You don't want to keep them in the same safe, etc.. constructive possession and all that, but in another safe at a separate location in the house or at another property, etc should be fine depending on your risk tolerance.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4E-xzsUkI0

 

[Plinkermostly]

Ya got to put a 'part' in a safe???

[Flynn]

On 2/1/2023 at 1:36 PM, Plinkermostly said:

Ya got to put a 'part' in a safe???

 

In regards to 'constructive possession' it just can't be laying around, readily accessable and in the same general location (or even building) a seperate safe that you don't have access to in the same building is one way to potentially avoid that charge, as is having them in a seperate location away from the firearm they attach to.

 

This 'constructive possession' cat and mouse game is nothing new, they use it all the time in drug bust, they find some drugs in the home, they then go into the kitchen find some baggies, find some plastic wrap, find some aluminum foil and find your digital food scale, now they can add an intent to distribute charge to that drug find under constructive possession since it was all found in the same location...  This happens all too often!  I personally know people that have been caught up and got several frivolous extra charges over constructive possession, in many cases the prosecutor uses those as leverage to get a plea, other times it gets more ugly as I suspect it would when the ATF is involved.

[Stuffgeek]

Can we even register a brace in IL without being a CCR?

Then I still have to register the weapon with IL?? What the hey!!!

 

 

[defaultdotxbe]

On 2/10/2023 at 9:55 AM, Stuffgeek said:

Can we even register a brace in IL without being a CCR?

Then I still have to register the weapon with IL?? What the hey!!!

 

 

Don't quote me on since there was a lot of confusion when it was passed but IIRC you only need a CCR for <26in OAL. <16in barrel with >26in OAL doesn't need CCR.

 

In any case I would hope the ATF would take a pending CCR application along with the form 1 and let it play out as long as everything is filed within 120 days. 

[davel501]

On 2/10/2023 at 10:59 AM, defaultdotxbe said:

Don't quote me on since there was a lot of confusion when it was passed but IIRC you only need a CCR for <26in OAL. <16in barrel with >26in OAL doesn't need CCR.

 

In any case I would hope the ATF would take a pending CCR application along with the form 1 and let it play out as long as everything is filed within 120 days. 

 

A pistol with a 10.5" barrel is at 29" OAL (extended brace to end of barrel). There aren't a ton of good working options under 26" that would be subject to the ATF insurrection. There may be some 300 blackouts with short enough barrels but the ballistics of 223/556 get really bad as you get shorter. 

[defaultdotxbe]

On 2/10/2023 at 11:59 AM, davel501 said:

 

A pistol with a 10.5" barrel is at 29" OAL (extended brace to end of barrel). There aren't a ton of good working options under 26" that would be subject to the ATF insurrection. There may be some 300 blackouts with short enough barrels but the ballistics of 223/556 get really bad as you get shorter. 

Assuming we are only talking about braced ARs. Other pistols are a different store, I believe a CZ Skorpion with a folding brace comes in at 25.5in. A Micro Draco AK would be even shorter. 

Edited February 10, 2023 at 06:10 PM by defaultdotxbe

[yurimodin]

ppl are going hardcore now.....saw this in one of my FB groups earlier  

[once0217]

On 2/10/2023 at 11:59 AM, davel501 said:

 

A pistol with a 10.5" barrel is at 29" OAL (extended brace to end of barrel). There aren't a ton of good working options under 26" that would be subject to the ATF insurrection. There may be some 300 blackouts with short enough barrels but the ballistics of 223/556 get really bad as you get shorter. 

Any rifle with a barrel less than 16" with a stock is a rifle (unless the Muzzle device is permanently attached.) OAL doesn't matter unless you're looking at "firearms" which is its own classification

When you measure OAL its from the end of the buffer tube to the end of the threads on the muzzle unless its pin and welded. Which puts you under 26 with a 10.5 barrel. An 11.5 barrel is about a 16th under 26 as well. Muzzle devices and braces/stocks do not factor in to OAL.

[davel501]

On 2/10/2023 at 3:05 PM, once0217 said:

Any rifle with a barrel less than 16" with a stock is a rifle (unless the Muzzle device is permanently attached.) OAL doesn't matter unless you're looking at "firearms" which is its own classification

When you measure OAL its from the end of the buffer tube to the end of the threads on the muzzle unless its pin and welded. Which puts you under 26 with a 10.5 barrel. An 11.5 barrel is about a 16th under 26 as well. Muzzle devices and braces/stocks do not factor in to OAL.

 

Sorry meant "brace". 

 

"When you are measuring the OAL of your SBR, for your ATF Form 1 or your ATF Form 4 you will need to measure the total length of your SBR with the stock fully extended.  If you have any removable muzzle devices you will need to remove them, when measuring your SBR.  Since the muzzle device is removable, the muzzle devices are not considered to be a part of the OAL of your SBR. "

 

https://www.nationalguntrusts.com/blogs/nfa-gun-trust-atf-information-database-blog/is-the-oal-of-an-sbr-measured-with-the-stock-fully-extended-or-collapsed

[once0217]

On 2/10/2023 at 4:31 PM, davel501 said:

 

Sorry meant "brace". 

 

"When you are measuring the OAL of your SBR, for your ATF Form 1 or your ATF Form 4 you will need to measure the total length of your SBR with the stock fully extended.  If you have any removable muzzle devices you will need to remove them, when measuring your SBR.  Since the muzzle device is removable, the muzzle devices are not considered to be a part of the OAL of your SBR. "

 

https://www.nationalguntrusts.com/blogs/nfa-gun-trust-atf-information-database-blog/is-the-oal-of-an-sbr-measured-with-the-stock-fully-extended-or-collapsed

I was referring to measuring pistols/"firearms". You're correct on the SBR measuring. Pistols are measured without anything on the buffer.

[cybermgk]

 

[bmyers]

It was nice to see two IL Representatives on the brief. 

 

[dukemason]

On 3/1/2023 at 12:11 PM, bmyers said:

It was nice to see two IL Representatives on the brief. 

 

 

I agree. Miller is my Rep.