Credit card industries to track firearm and ammo sales.

[modeler1945]

On 9/14/2022 at 6:52 PM, mauserme said:

 

...buying an automatic rifle or...

 

One can dream!

[Flynn]

Rumor is some independent gun stores are now installing 'independently owned' ATMs inside their stores so customers have the option to get cash advances and pay with cash.

[Yas]

Glockmeister in this mornings email offers this

Quote

We understand your frustration surrounding recent announcements regarding how firearm purchases will be categorized by credit card companies.
If you're uncomfortable using a credit card to order from us online, we'll be accepting personal checks, cashier's checks, money orders, and ACH payments for all online orders going forward.
Heck, we'll even take an envelope full of cash if you send one (though we don't recommend it).
For more info regarding how we handle money orders and checks, click here.

 

[cnwfan3]

Does anyone know when this actually takes effect?

 

I also see it says Visa, Mastercard and American Express, does that mean Discover is not participating in this?  It may be time to break out the Discover card for all online gun and ammo purchases.

[Dumak_from_arfcom]

On 9/15/2022 at 9:00 AM, Flynn said:

Rumor is some independent gun stores are now installing 'independently owned' ATMs inside their stores so customers have the option to get cash advances and pay with cash.

Emily Miller wrote that Maxons is going to be installing an ATM.   

I don't see how that will work.  Most ATMs only allow a few hundred max withdrawl per transaction and have a per day limit well under the price of a firearm. 

[Flynn]

On 9/15/2022 at 2:00 PM, Dumak_from_arfcom said:

I don't see how that will work.  Most ATMs only allow a few hundred max withdrawl per transaction and have a per day limit well under the price of a firearm. 

 

There is a two factors to that, what your bank allows (you can set and adjust this with a call) and what the ATM allows.  I would guess any store that has one of these ATMs installed will request it has a much higher daily limit than your run of the mill machines, and then anyone that wants to use it should call their bank in advance and make sure they have a high enough daily withdrawl limit.

 

I ran into this issue when buying a car with cash years ago on a Sunday out of state, hit my daily limit instantly, called the debit card number, bumped my daily limit up, then proceeded to hit up several ATMs in town until I got what I needed 🤣  Most banks have a $300-$500 daily limit by default to help with losses when cards are stolen, but you can adjust that with a call to the bank, I have mine set much higher after that car experience, as the $500 it was set at in todays world is chump change, especially when out of town on vacation doing things and many tourist attractions appreciate cash, especially for tips.

 

Beyond that, small ammo purchases and many accessories will still be able to be bought with many peoples normal limits.

[mab22]

On 9/15/2022 at 9:46 AM, Yas said:

Glockmeister in this mornings email offers this

 

Nice!  No more money for the CC companies for firearm sales, a new cash economy will be born. 
BLEEP ‘em!

 

 

[mauserme]

On 9/15/2022 at 1:00 PM, Dumak_from_arfcom said:

Emily Miller wrote that Maxons is going to be installing an ATM.   

I don't see how that will work.  Most ATMs only allow a few hundred max withdrawl per transaction and have a per day limit well under the price of a firearm. 

 

Get $200 or $300 as a cash down payment and bring the balance when you pick it up..  

[Black Flag]

On 9/15/2022 at 9:00 AM, Flynn said:

Rumor is some independent gun stores are now installing 'independently owned' ATMs inside their stores so customers have the option to get cash advances and pay with cash.

I heard of other kinda stores doing some similar thing.

[alco0203]

On 9/15/2022 at 12:06 PM, cnwfan3 said:

I also see it says Visa, Mastercard and American Express, does that mean Discover is not participating in this?  It may be time to break out the Discover card for all online gun and ammo purchases.

 I'm curious too. I have a Discover I use frequently though not exclusively and would happily make it exclusive to avoid any of this nonsense.

[ragsbo]

I heard a rumor that this was being done at the "request" of ATF or some other government agency since they could not do it themselves.

[mauserme]

I heard there were some NY senators behind the request, but who really knows for sure.

[Bubbacs]

Hear it from a friend who, heard it from a friend who, heard it was what’s his name!

[MagSlap]

“We do not believe private companies should serve as moral arbiters,” Visa said. “Asking private companies to decide what legal products or services can or cannot be bought and from what store sets a dangerous precedent. Further, it would be an invasion of consumers’ privacy for banks and payment networks to know each of our most personal purchasing habits. Visa is firmly against this.”

 

....But we are implementing it anyway because the ATF/politicians asked nicely.

Hugz N Kisses, VISA

 

 

[mab22]

On 9/19/2022 at 4:52 PM, mauserme said:

I heard there were some NY senators behind the request, but who really knows for sure.

Fake a hontas  was one!
 

[grainderson]

So glad I have a Discover card although I wouldn't be surprised if they're on board as well even if not mentioned directly in Warren's letter or the news articles.

[mab22]

Now there are occurrences of transaction blocks, and you thought this was harmless “categorization”.

Nope, they did that so they could block transactions they DON’T LIKE. What’s next fossil fuels, Gold, Silver?
Trust me when I say this is ahead of the curve. 

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/gun-shops-and-customers-claim-credit-card-firms-restrict-purchases
 

Quote

Gun rights advocates warned that a new change to the credit card industry to add a firearm and ammunition-specific Merchant Category Code (MCC) for gun stores wasn't about tracking guns necessarily, but could lead to the denial of lawful firearms purchases by law-abiding citizens.

In September, Visa, Mastercard, and American Express all said they would adopt the MCC code to categorize sales at gun shops; months later, several social media posts of alleged gun stores and customers claim they experienced card issues.   

Twitter account "Battlecock Tactical" tweeted, "Federal Firearms License [gun shop] in a Facebook group shared this. Looks like the doomers accurately called how that new firearms merchant code would go down." 

 

Battlecock Tactical's images show what appears to be a retail POS system at an FFL that reads $913.70 transaction was "declined." The error code on the merchant's computer read: 

"Transaction declined: Charge declined RESTRICTED CARD Customer bank does not allow this card to be used at this type of merchant." 

 

[soundguy]

This discussion is pretty interesting but deserves more information before I approach the edge of the cliff.

 

I would like to know how many incidents of this type have occurred in the gun world. So far, I am finding one in my short search. The bank involved, Forcht Bank in Kentucky, claims the image floating around is photo shopped, a false image. They go on to say "we have a business banking client that is one of the top 10 largest online firearm retailers in the US. And we have a great relationship with them and they are also aware of the false information being passed around about our bank.”

 

Two things about this are a bit queer:

 -So far there is only one report

 -The bank involved is from Kentucky

Someone should check with Bud's or KY Guns.

 

 

UPDATE from The Gateway Pundit

Quote

 

An MCC code is a Merchant Category Code. It is used to map business industries (like computer repair, dental, and insurance agencies) to a four-digit code (like 7379, 8021, and 6300 respectively). Occasionally, a customer’s issuing credit card bank will block transactions if the credit card is used at an establishment they deem inappropriate for the type of credit card. As a possible example, HSA medical cards tend to be restricted cards, and would likely receive an invalid service code (62) if used at a movie theater.

 

As another example, occasionally there is no MCC code that adequately describes a merchant’s business type, in which case your merchant account is assigned a generic MCC code of 7299. Some issuers will block customer transactions for businesses with a generic 7299 MCC code.

 

If you receive an invalid service code (62), you may want to check that your MCC code on file for your merchant account is accurate for your business industry.

 

 

Cheers,

Tim

 

 

 

 

 

 

[solareclipse2]

On 12/10/2022 at 8:29 AM, soundguy said:

This discussion is pretty interesting but deserves more information before I approach the edge of the cliff.

 

I would like to know how many incidents of this type have occurred in the gun world. So far, I am finding one in my short search. The bank involved, Forcht Bank in Kentucky, claims the image floating around is photo shopped, a false image. They go on to say "we have a business banking client that is one of the top 10 largest online firearm retailers in the US. And we have a great relationship with them and they are also aware of the false information being passed around about our bank.”

 

Two things about this are a bit queer:

 -So far there is only one report

 -The bank involved is from Kentucky

Someone should check with Bud's or KY Guns.

 

 

UPDATE from The Gateway Pundit

 

 

Cheers,

Tim

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 It's good that the HSA card is mentioned because I actually had that happen a few times specifically with my HSA card shopping at places that sell things both HSA approved and non-HSA approved. I was buying HSA approved items but the transaction was still declined. The first time was trying to buy IFAKs from somewhere online that also sells guns. The second was at Walgreens but not at the pharmacy. 

 

I also did some google searching and the error seems to come up a lot with certain types of debit cards and banks that are what I would consider "banks" and really just "card issuers" that seem to have all sorts of crazy terms. 

[Yeti]

Coming soon:

 

Exclusive-Discover to enable tracking of purchases at gun retailers from April (msn.com)

[John Q Public]

Cash, I will also not accept D cards, nor use/keep them after this.

[MrTriple]

These changes won't last more than a few years. Like with the attempts to remove gun content off of social media, they will fail. The culture has shifted too far in a pro-gun direction.

 

Not only that, but this'll simply become another front in the culture war, particularly at a time when people are increasingly tired of this sort of stuff and demanding political action on the matter.

[Dumak_from_arfcom]

 

I believe that some amount of CC purchase tracking has been going on for a long time based on a phone call I got in 1996.  

 

I had used a new credit card I got from a local bank to buy a 92FS at a Sports Authority. It was the first time I purchased anything using that card.

A couple weeks later I got a call from a woman who didn't say who she was, but she knew a bunch of details about my purchase - and asked if what I purchased was a firearm. When I told her I wasn't going to answer any questions until she told me her name and who she worked for she hung up.  About a week after I paid off the CC balance I received a hand signed letter from the bank president that stated my account was closed after a recent review of my transaction history. 
    

[RECarry]

On 2/18/2023 at 7:13 PM, Dumak_from_arfcom said:

 

I believe that some amount of CC purchase tracking has been going on for a long time based on a phone call I got in 1996.  

 

I had used a new credit card I got from a local bank to buy a 92FS at a Sports Authority. It was the first time I purchased anything using that card.

A couple weeks later I got a call from a woman who didn't say who she was, but she knew a bunch of details about my purchase - and asked if what I purchased was a firearm. When I told her I wasn't going to answer any questions until she told me her name and who she worked for she hung up.  About a week after I paid off the CC balance I received a hand signed letter from the bank president that stated my account was closed after a recent review of my transaction history. 
    

Mind disclosing which bank?  The cowards waited until you paid off the balance, eh?

[DoYouFeelLucky]

Having spent a lot of time in my work diving into the intricacies of point-of-sale systems and credit card transaction data, there are some rather simple things that firearms stores can do to make their efforts less than accurate.

[Dumak_from_arfcom]

On 2/18/2023 at 7:23 PM, RECarry said:

Mind disclosing which bank?  The cowards waited until you paid off the balance, eh?

 

It was a small community bank in Gurnee that merged or was acquired by other banks.   I think it was flattened to make way for a car dealership. 

Thinking about it some, I believe the woman on the phone knew I had purchased a gun but was after other details.  I'll never know if it was a nosey anti-gun bank manager worried about fraud, or if some manager at Sports Authority was trying to clear up paperwork. The timing of my account getting closed after that phone call always creeped me out.  /tinfoil  

[BobPistol]

On 9/11/2022 at 11:32 AM, MrTriple said:

I'm gonna get chewed out for saying this, but I think people are overreacting.

 

Totalitarianism never comes in one fell swoop if done without violence.

It always comes gradually.

 

[MrTriple]

On 2/19/2023 at 1:08 AM, BobPistol said:

Totalitarianism never comes in one fell swoop if done without violence.

It always comes gradually.

 

...except that this'll eventually get reversed, likely once some state AGs file suit, or an enterprising young political figure from a certain swing state turns it into a political issue.

 

This isn't 2000 anymore.

[Skolnick]

On 9/20/2022 at 1:35 PM, MagSlap said:

“it would be an invasion of consumers’ privacy for banks and payment networks to know each of our most personal purchasing habits. Visa is firmly against this.”

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/?sh=2d0051c66686

 

How Target Figured Out A Teen Girl Was Pregnant Before Her Father Did

Feb 16, 2012

 

(Note: Going by the date above,  it was 11 years ago when they had, and employed, this ability

 

[Pole] ran test after test, analyzing the data, and before long some useful patterns emerged. Lotions, for example. Lots of people buy lotion, but one of Pole’s colleagues noticed that women on the baby registry were buying larger quantities of unscented lotion around the beginning of their second trimester. Another analyst noted that sometime in the first 20 weeks, pregnant women loaded up on supplements like calcium, magnesium and zinc. Many shoppers purchase soap and cotton balls, but when someone suddenly starts buying lots of scent-free soap and extra-big bags of cotton balls, in addition to hand sanitizers and washcloths, it signals they could be getting close to their delivery date ...

 

“Then we started mixing in all these ads for things we knew pregnant women would never buy, so the baby ads looked random. We’d put an ad for a lawn mower next to diapers. We’d put a coupon for wineglasses next to infant clothes. That way, it looked like all the products were chosen by chance.

 

“And we found out that as long as a pregnant woman thinks she hasn’t been spied on, she’ll use the coupons. She just assumes that everyone else on her block got the same mailer for diapers and cribs. As long as we don’t spook her, it works.”

 

And the moral of the story is, as long as you don't know what they are doing and get spooked, it works!

[DoYouFeelLucky]

On 2/19/2023 at 10:41 AM, Skolnick said:

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/?sh=2d0051c66686

 

How Target Figured Out A Teen Girl Was Pregnant Before Her Father Did

Feb 16, 2012

 

(Note: Going by the date above,  it was 11 years ago when they had, and employed, this ability

 

[Pole] ran test after test, analyzing the data, and before long some useful patterns emerged. Lotions, for example. Lots of people buy lotion, but one of Pole’s colleagues noticed that women on the baby registry were buying larger quantities of unscented lotion around the beginning of their second trimester. Another analyst noted that sometime in the first 20 weeks, pregnant women loaded up on supplements like calcium, magnesium and zinc. Many shoppers purchase soap and cotton balls, but when someone suddenly starts buying lots of scent-free soap and extra-big bags of cotton balls, in addition to hand sanitizers and washcloths, it signals they could be getting close to their delivery date ...

 

“Then we started mixing in all these ads for things we knew pregnant women would never buy, so the baby ads looked random. We’d put an ad for a lawn mower next to diapers. We’d put a coupon for wineglasses next to infant clothes. That way, it looked like all the products were chosen by chance.

 

“And we found out that as long as a pregnant woman thinks she hasn’t been spied on, she’ll use the coupons. She just assumes that everyone else on her block got the same mailer for diapers and cribs. As long as we don’t spook her, it works.”

 

And the moral of the story is, as long as you don't know what they are doing and get spooked, it works!

Eleven years ago all of this intelligence was gleaned via BI tools from Target's customer database and purchasing transaction data.  Now that data is married with digital tracking from various ad networks (both closed and open gardens) to expand the intelligence to determine what you want to, or need to be influenced to, purchase next.  If you want to make sure you firearm and ammo purchases are not widely visible, don't take your phone, and pay with cash you withdrew at least 6 months ago.  Also borrow your buddies copy of Guns & Ammo to do your research and do not do any research on the internet.  You probably shouldn't go through a toll booth either.  On second thought have your buddy give you a ride.