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ISP is revoking for OLD clear & present danger reports (hundreds, possibly thousands)


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Agree that ISP may decide to not honor the FOIA request but the confidential language won’t work as authority to do so especially when the person about whom the report was filed is seeking its existence. We shall see whether this is a quick fight or a drawn out battle. We get the C&PD as part of the business record when conducting an administrative hearing so for ISP to say it won’t be disclosed in one case and disclose it in another case works against them. 

Edited by FredNickl
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On 8/24/2022 at 11:33 AM, vk60187 said:

How does the process of CPD work for a household that has multiple FOID card holders?

 

C&PD reports are filed on individuals, whether they have FOIDs or not, not locations. If cops get called to a domestic dispute, they could file reports on every party involved. Whether they actually do or not is probably arbitrary.

 

If you're really asking what happens for revocations, there are several reasons why a FOID could be revoked. A C&PD report is only one of them. If the FOID of one of several people is revoked, it's simply like that person never had a FOID. Such people with any firearms under their control have to dispose of them to other people with FOIDs (or the cops).

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On 8/24/2022 at 1:37 PM, IH8IL said:

So how is this legal without due process?

The same way red light and speed cameras are legal and you don’t go to real court with an elected or appointed “real” judge who is operating under the actual judicial branch, and ALL the rules of law and the constitution apply. 

That’s the how this state views due process. It’s a “kind” of due process. 


 

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On 8/25/2022 at 7:52 AM, mab22 said:

The same way red light and speed cameras are legal and you don’t go to real court with an elected or appointed “real” judge who is operating under the actual judicial branch, and ALL the rules of law and the constitution apply. 

That’s the how this state views due process. It’s a “kind” of due process. 


 

"Due process" is what the government defines it to be heavily based on the "interest of the state". 

So put another way. This is the outcome of the marxist lie of the greater good for the greater number. Too many stupid lazy people support this lie. 

Votes have consequences.

 

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What's the end game here for ISP?   There seems to be a wide net being cast without clear information to gun owners.   You wake up suddenly "non-compliant" having your 2A right stripped.   Then ISP goes and takes guns from non-criminals so they can put it out a story that "X" number of firearms were seized.   What a time.

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On 8/25/2022 at 11:20 AM, MHR89 said:

What's the end game here for ISP?   There seems to be a wide net being cast without clear information to gun owners.   You wake up suddenly "non-compliant" having your 2A right stripped.   Then ISP goes and takes guns from non-criminals so they can put it out a story that "X" number of firearms were seized.   What a time.

Honestly this all began with the CCL law that provided a means of non-adjudicated foid revocation criteria.   It's beyond mind blowing to consider how much power ISP is granted and is acting as a very reaching executive agency, exerting de facto judicial powers and pushing even legislative muscle considering the "emergency" rule that Pritzker most recently somehow magically granted the ISP.  Not Sure you can even call it due process when a single agency seemingly has total authority to dictate who they deem *worthy* to exercise their 2A rights.  Icing on the cake is the laughable approach they take to indefinitely handling foid appeals, yet will instantly revoke it so easily and quickly.  How is it considered affording due process when so many people get their FOID cards revoked suddenly and cannot even determine why and when??  

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On 8/25/2022 at 11:48 AM, hceuterpe said:

Honestly this all began with the CCL law that provided a means of non-adjudicated foid revocation criteria.   It's beyond mind blowing to consider how much power ISP is granted and is acting as a very reaching executive agency, exerting de facto judicial powers and pushing even legislative muscle considering the "emergency" rule that Pritzker most recently somehow magically granted the ISP.  Not Sure you can even call it due process when a single agency seemingly has total authority to dictate who they deem *worthy* to exercise their 2A rights.  Icing on the cake is the laughable approach they take to indefinitely handling foid appeals, yet will instantly revoke it so easily and quickly.  How is it considered affording due process when so many people get their FOID cards revoked suddenly and cannot even determine why and when??  

Its the FOID that keeps all this going on. Without the FOID, there would be none of this nonsense with report it to agency A so agency B can investigate and DECIDE wether to investigate and or yank someone’s constitutional right without ANY hearing with that person present, because someone filed a “complaint”.
 

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On 8/25/2022 at 9:03 AM, Smallbore said:

"Due process" is what the government defines it to be heavily based on the "interest of the state". 

...

 

Due process is mediated by the judicial branch. Anything that takes place without the involvement of the judicial branch isn't due process.

 

On 8/25/2022 at 12:20 PM, MHR89 said:

What's the end game here for ISP?  ...

 

TL;DR: Ass-covering

 

C&PD reports are red flag petitions on steroids, because they are specifically designed to avoid judicial review. Previously there were two things that stopped a C&PD report from causing a FOID to be revoked:

  1. A C&PD report on someone without a FOID would be ignored, because there were no firearms to seize. That's been changed so that C&PD reports now also mean that the subjects of such reports can never have a FOID.
  2. The ISP had established itself as an arbiter for C&PD reports. If it seemed that a C&PD report had been filed without reasonable cause, the ISP would rule it void and do nothing.

Now a C&PD report is an automatic FOID revocation, no questions asked. ISP is also applying that change of criteria and procedure retroactively. Based on the (unconstitutional) law, Crimo (July 4 shooter) should have never gotten a FOID. ISP doesn't want to be in any way responsible for another person who shouldn't have access to weapons getting access to weapons.

 

There is absolutely a way to enact such restrictions constitutionally. A C&PD report should instead trigger a judicial hearing on mental competence. If a prosecutor can't substantiate the report, the process ends. If a judge determines that the subject is mentally diseased or deficient, typically based on an actual psychological evaluation rather than the opinion of a random cop, then there is already lots of law and legal precedent to deal with it.

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AAANNDDD we have some hints directly from ISP 

https://qctimes.com/news/state-and-regional/crime-and-courts/illinois-state-police-stepping-up-foid-enforcement/article_60a1831c-2896-51f7-9c8a-49b84c1dc8d5.html

Quote

He also said law enforcement "can't do it alone," adding that medical professions, educators and family members can make "clear and present danger" reports if they believe someone is a threat.


 

A few articles on this - Should be enough people involved to get a suit going. 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/illinois-state-police-put-over-1000-individuals-into-e2-80-98compliance-e2-80-99-following-firearm-blitz/ar-AA114fgR


https://www.msn.com/en-US/news/us/nearly--southern-illinoisans-have-to-give-up-their-firearms-after-gun-rights-revoked/ar-AA114k5V?amp;amp;amp;amp;ICID=ref_fark

 

 

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On 8/26/2022 at 5:10 PM, mab22 said:

...

Quote

[Illinois State Police Director Brendan F. Kelly] also said law enforcement "can't do it alone," adding that medical professions, educators and family members can make "clear and present danger" reports if they believe someone is a threat.

...

 

Kelly is wrong about family members. Cops, physicians, school administrators, and mental health professionals can file reports, not family members. Nevertheless, I am unamazed that the highest-ranking law enforcement official in Illinois lacks a basic understanding of the law he is charged with enforcing.

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On 8/26/2022 at 5:55 PM, MHR89 said:

What if medical professionals aren't filing C&PD reports, and ISP is just revoking any FOID under a C&PD for anyone that has even seen a mental health professional blanketing under 430 ILCS 65/8 (f)?   HIPAA violation?  

 

Presumably there has to be an actual C&PD report to claim it as the justification for a revocation.

 

To get a FOID or CCL, applicants waive their HIPAA privacy protections. Since you agreed to it, it's not a violation, although it's a click-through agreement, which alone could make for some interesting legal arguments (e.g., whether it's coercive).

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I'm starting to see YouTube videos about this issue, one yesterday and one today. I'm sure there are others. Unfortunately they get the same things wrong that I've seen on Reddit (and to a lesser extent here): they mistakenly identify Clear & Present Danger as IL's implementation of a "red flag" law, and they mistakenly claim it came into existence after the July 4 shooting.

 

It's nice that the problem is finally getting wider visibility, but if the problem is misunderstood, there's not going to be much, if any, progress.

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From Cook County Sheriffs Dept FOIA request:

 

Your request mentioned:

Looking for information regarding a CLEAR and PRESENT DANGER prohibitor that has caused a FOID revocation.

 

Please be advised that the CCSO conducted a diligent search based on the information you provided. However, no records were found in response to your request.

 

We spoke to our Cook County Sheriff Police Department and it found no records regarding placing you on a clear and present danger list or any records related to the letter you received from the Illinois State Police regarding the revocation of your FOID card.

 

My revocation letter clearly states C&PD COOK COUNTY from July 27, 2022.   The only time I have spent outside of Cook County is driving through other counties - more or less.    I have done a separate FOIA with State Police directly.

 

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Just received response to FOIA request from IDHS. 
 

I should seek my mental health record file at a location I received treatment.

So nothing useful since I did not receive any treatment. 

 

The Illinois Department of Human Services received your request related to your mental health records.  Please note, the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) applies only to requests for public records.  The fastest way for you to access information in your own case file is through a request to inspect and copy the file at location where you received treatment.  You can IDHS Office Locations you by using the Office Locator tool at IDHS: Office Locator (state.il.us).  You can also call the DHS Customer Help Line at (800) 843-6154/(866) 234-5553 (TTY).  Staff are available 8:00 am - 5:00 pm, Monday through Friday except state holidays to answer your questions.  If you did not receive mental health services at an IDHS Office Location, please contact your provider directly. 

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On 8/30/2022 at 3:52 PM, AlexK said:

Just received response to FOIA request from IDHS. 
...

...  Please note, the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) applies only to requests for public records.  ...

 

This is pretty much the response I expected for a FOIA request. Maybe the thing to do is to ask IDHS what the procedure is to obtain your non-public IDHS records (and then do that). Ideally it won't take a lawsuit to subpoena them.

 

ETA: "Kafkaesque" is a word that comes to mind. "Byzantine" works, too.

 

Edited by Euler
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Received response to my FOIA request from ISP that additional time is needed to respond to my request, so they pushed forward the FOIA response due date. 

They checked these three reasons:

__X __ The requested records have not yet been located and additional time is needed to complete the search.

__X__ The requested records require examination and evaluation to determine if the documents are exempt from disclosure and/or must be redacted.

__X__ The requested records cannot be provided within the prescribed time frame without causing an undue burden or interfering with the operation of the Department.

 

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