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ISP is revoking for OLD clear & present danger reports (hundreds, possibly thousands)


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For years, I would get one call a month from a potential client who was revoked for Clear & Present Danger. Within the past 3 days, I've had 10 calls for this reason. At least one was based on a C&PD report likely filed 2 years ago, and two of them were for reports likely filed 1 year ago. The rest are similar, if we can determine the timing at all. Some don't recall a single interaction with police that could have ended in a C&PD report being filed. Extrapolating numbers, I am guessing that ISP revoked hundreds (if not many more) in the past week.

 

Just FYI for anyone that gets a revocation notice this week - make sure you consider every interaction you've had for the past 2 years when trying to determine the reason ISP revoked you.

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There was recently a Reddit thread of someone asking about a revocation because of a Clear and Present Danger report with no apparent underlying event. Of course, there could be details not disclosed that make a big difference, but allegedly the only recent interaction with police was a traffic violation.

 

Were these revocations for which you're getting calls now filed before the people had FOIDs?

 

I've posted elsewhere in these forums, but it seems to me that it is an abridgement of due process when someone other than a judge (i.e., a physician, clinical psychologist, qualified examiner, law enforcement official, or school administrator) can "adjudicate" a person with having a mental disability, resulting in the suspension of a constitutionally protected civil liberty.

 

430 ILCS 65 said:

Sec. 1.1. For purposes of this Act:

...

"Adjudicated as a person with a mental disability" means the person is the subject of a determination by a court, board, commission or other lawful authority that the person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, mental impairment, incompetency, condition, or disease:

(1) presents a clear and present danger to himself, herself, or to others;

...

...

...

Sec. 8.1. Notifications to the Illinois State Police.

...

(d) If a person is determined to pose a clear and present danger to himself, herself, or to others:

(1) by a physician, clinical psychologist, or qualified examiner ...

(2) by a law enforcement official or school administrator ...

...

...

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On 8/7/2022 at 4:12 PM, THE KING said:

Wait,  WHAT

 

I thought the ISP said they didn't keep those reports.  

 

Isn't that what they said in reference to the Highland Park shooter or am I missing something 🤔 

 

Illinois Right to Keep and Carry > Pritzker executive order regarding FOID

 

... although it wasn't an executive order. It was an emergency rule. Meanwhile IDHS keeps them forever, so ISP probably just asked them for a copy of old records.

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On 8/7/2022 at 9:25 PM, DoYouFeelLucky said:

Seems like how the kid was able to get through the system should be investigated.

 

It's already known.

 

ISP didn't keep records of Clear and Present Danger reports for people who didn't have FOIDs. IOW Clear and Present Danger reports were only used to revoke FOIDs, not to deny applications for new FOIDs.

 

Crimo didn't have a FOID when the police filed a Clear and Present Danger report on him, so ISP didn't keep it. Then Crimo applied for a FOID and got it.

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Just got an email today that FOID and CCL were revoked due to C&PD. I have no idea what this is about and hope that letter will provide more information like when apparent event happened. I had no interaction with police, other that a traffic stop, also no interaction with medical professionals other that regular doctor visits. I have no idea what to do other than going to official route and appealing this. I was hoping that someone here has an advice.

Thanks! 

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From what I am seeing, my best guess is that a lot of these C&PD reports that local law enforcement sent in will probably NOT show that the person was an actual clear and present danger. My best guess -- until I get my hands on the actual reports -- is that local law enforcement used the reports to 'get back' at certain individuals or may have just filed a report for everyone that had a gun. IF that happened, it would be a good idea to research whether a civil rights suit of some kind could be filed for egregious and inappropriate submitting of C&PD reports. Interesting.

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On 8/12/2022 at 12:10 PM, FredNickl said:

... local law enforcement used the reports to 'get back' at certain individuals or may have just filed a report for everyone that had a gun. IF that happened, it would be a good idea to research whether a civil rights suit of some kind could be filed for egregious and inappropriate submitting of C&PD reports. ...

 

I agree that it seems like a good reason to change the law (have the law changed) so that reports require a full hearing before civil liberties can be suspended, otherwise its a formalization of "arbitrary and capricious" (if not malicious). Even then, it still burdens less affluent people more.

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On 8/12/2022 at 5:15 PM, AlexK said:

I had an encounter with police 5 years ago, but I highly doubt they had a reason to file C&PD. Still waiting for letter to come in the mail, hopefully it will at least provide a date. 

 

The guy in the Reddit topic I posted above included an image of the letter he (or his friend) got. It did not include a date of the incident that generated the clear & present danger report.

 

vkrspnaxc0e91.jpg?width=1024&auto=webp&s

 

The person affected got a ticket at a traffic stop in June, but paid the ticket. The letter was dated July 14. There was no police interaction between then and the arrival of the letter (according to the post). The only thing that makes sense to me is that, on July 8, ISP "discovered" an old Clear & Present Danger report, possibly filed by Cook County SO.

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On 8/12/2022 at 5:38 PM, Euler said:

 

The guy in the Reddit topic I posted above included an image of the letter he (or his friend) got. It did not include a date of the incident that generated the clear & present danger report.

 

vkrspnaxc0e91.jpg?width=1024&auto=webp&s

 

The person affected got a ticket at a traffic stop in June, but paid the ticket. The letter was dated July 14. There was no police interaction between then and the arrival of the letter (according to the post). The only thing that makes sense to me is that, on July 8, ISP "discovered" an old Clear & Present Danger report, possibly filed by Cook County SO.

Insane, so looks like the latter won’t provide any more information for me. Can’t wait to get out of this state 

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(edit - From what I understand it’s the Illinois department of public health that notifies the state police of the CPD. So I guess you would FOIA IDPH for the filed record, which probably won’t have the reporter on it, to find out what the issue is. Good ol’ Illinois bureaucratic move, go fight the ISP when IDPH has the details)
1. It sounds like you are NOT notified if a clear and present danger report has been filed against you. ( what country is this, is there a constitutional amendment addressing this type of thing?)


2. it’s sounding like you don’t get a day in court to defend your standing as NOT a danger, or that a judge found you a danger. ( would there be a constitutional amendment that is involved here)

 

3. It’s not just the police that can file one of these. I wouldn’t be surprised if a family member, ex vindictive spouse, angry neighbor, DMV worker, etc can file one of these and you’ll never know till the state wants your firearms for something you know nothing about. The law was added in 2013 when the CCL license was added, probably got over looked, or hidden in some state park chemical waste clean up act, the IL congress likes to hide laws from its subjects.
Note “school administrator”, don’t want to disagree with a school admin, your loco if you disagree, and they remain anonymous. 
from https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/documents/043000650K1.1.htm

Quote
 "Clear and present danger" means a person who:
        (1) communicates a serious threat of physical 
    
violence against a reasonably identifiable victim or poses a clear and imminent risk of serious physical injury to himself, herself, or another person as determined by a physician, clinical psychologist, or qualified examiner; or
        (2) demonstrates threatening physical or verbal 
    
behavior, such as violent, suicidal, or assaultive threats, actions, or other behavior, as determined by a physician, clinical psychologist, qualified examiner, school administrator, or law enforcement official.

 

 

also, you don’t have to register, but you can kind of just fill out the form online, look at the option report but not register. No one would abuse that would they. 

https://foid2.dhs.illinois.gov/foidpublic/foid/pages/public/clinicianPublicInfo.jsp

 


From a form provided, my emphasis added - https://isp.illinois.gov/StaticFiles/docs/FSB/FOID Appeal Forms/ClearAndPresentDanger.pdf

 

Quote

The identity of the person reporting under this Section shall not be disclosed to the subject of the report. The physician, clinical psychologist, qualified examiner, law enforcement official, or school administrator making the determination and his or her employer shall not be held criminally, civilly, or professionally liable for making or not making the notification required under this subsection, except for willful or wanton misconduct. (430 ILCS 65/8.1)


My guess is this fell through the cracks somehow and that it’s being abused like everything else in this failed state.

 

 

Edited by mab22
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Is the personal information in witness slips public?   anti-gun zealots could be using those to identify gun owners and fill out fraudulent clear and present danger reports. 

Do reporting officials have to provide their information/credentials, and does the state check those credentials and verify the person who submitted the report actually did so? Or do they just assume every report they get is authentic and take action? Leaving it up to the FOID holder to prove a negative with little or no provided information.  

I can think of a dozen ways this could be abused.   

Edited by Dumak_from_arfcom
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On 8/14/2022 at 2:02 PM, Dumak_from_arfcom said:

Is the personal information in witness slips public?  ...

Do reporting officials have to provide their information/credentials ...

 

Witness slip filer name and (if you provide it) organization is completely public. I believe address, phone number, etc., is available to legislators and staff, in case they want to talk to you about it.

 

Reporters do have to provide identifying information. What I've seen from the site, they don't need logins, which suggests reports can be forged. ISP says it verifies and validates all reports before it acts on them. I'm skeptical. "Revoke the FOID first; investigate later, if you get around to it" seems more likely to me, especially since July 4.

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On 8/14/2022 at 3:31 PM, Dumak_from_arfcom said:

The PDF states that reports must be filed within 72 hours of an incident.  

I'm willing to bet these aren't old reports that ISP has been sitting on. 

 

The reports were probably filed within 72 hours of their respective incidents, but ISP neither acted on them nor kept them. Now it has asked IDHS for old reports and is acting on them.

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On 8/12/2022 at 3:52 PM, FredNickl said:

Since last week, I've not talked to 30 folks that had C&PD revocations this month. The longest 'look back' window that ISP is using is about 4 years, which is absolutely insane.

How did the folks you talk to knew how far ISP looked back? Was there a date when C&PD was filled on their revocation letter? 

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Dates are rarely included on the revocation letter; I've only seen that 1-2 times this month. Most of the time it is just a frustrating discussion trying to think about all possible interactions over the past 5 years that could have triggered a local LEO filing a C&PD report. Very frustrating. Sometimes no events can be remembered. We have been filing FOIA requests with ISP and local police agencies. Too soon to have gotten responses yet.

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I have a good friend that just received the notification of revocation and the letter did not list an incident or a location. He was told it would be included in the revocation letter and it was not. The FSB call center told him they cannot tell him why. 

 

He is retaining an attorney. The only thing that could possibly be in his history is a PTSD diagnosis from his military service. He is not 100% ptsd per the VA. His provider is writing up a letter that he is not a clear and present danger and he has never shown any indication of being that way in his history. 

 

If this ends up being tied to his PTSD diagnosis that will prevent many vets from seeking care. 

 

If his attorney cannot get an answer to why this was done by the end of next week he is going to his state rep and the media. 

 

 

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On 8/19/2022 at 9:19 AM, FredNickl said:

... We have been filing FOIA requests with ISP and local police agencies. ...

 

On 8/19/2022 at 11:56 AM, jazzemt said:

I have a good friend that just received the notification of revocation ... The FSB call center told him they cannot tell him why. 

... 

If his attorney cannot get an answer to why this was done by the end of next week he is going to his state rep and the media.

 

C&PD reports are protected information. FOIAs and state reps can't help. Neither gets anyone access to protected information. (I'm willing to be proven wrong on that.) I'd even be willing to bet a subpoena won't be enough. ISP would just redact everything, assuming it pretends to respond.

 

The C&PD law basically gives the executive the power to suspend a person's civil liberties extra-judicially and in absentia for "crimes" so secret not even they are allowed to know what the crimes are, when they occurred, or who made the accusation. I'm convinced that a lawsuit will be required to strike down the C&PD law. Maybe the media will give the issue enough coverage to get the attention of a lawyer who's willing to take it as far as it needs to go (US Supreme Court?). We absolutely appear to have plenty of people suffering harm for a case. C&PD reports are a 6A issue, which ironically would usually have "ACLU" written all over it. I can't imagine that the ACLU would take up this cause, but maybe I just lack sufficient imagination.

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On 8/19/2022 at 3:21 PM, Euler said:

 

 

C&PD reports are protected information. FOIAs and state reps can't help. Neither gets anyone access to protected information. 

You got a cite for this? Unless the statute or administrative rule exempts C&PD from FOIA, then they are fair game. I'll share on here whether I start to get responses, and if I get objections from ISP (or local), I'll fight those.

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On 8/19/2022 at 4:24 PM, FredNickl said:

You got a cite for this? Unless the statute or administrative rule exempts C&PD from FOIA, then they are fair game. I'll share on here whether I start to get responses, and if I get objections from ISP (or local), I'll fight those.

 

First, there's the FOID Act that says it's confidential.

 

430 ILCS 65/8.1 said:

...

(d) ... Any information disclosed under this subsection shall remain privileged and confidential, and shall not be redisclosed, except [to share the information with NICS] ... The identity of the person reporting under this Section shall not be disclosed to the subject of the report. ...

...

 

Second, the classification of government records is overwhelmingly an executive prerogative. Other than that 5 ILCS 140/7(1) has a list of things exempt from IL FOIA. Remembering that school administrators are some of the people who can file C&PD reports and that the identities of all reporters are specifically protected by the FOID Act, some of the exceptions to IL FOIA that I think might apply are:

 

5 ILCS 140/7(1) said:

...

(b) Private information, unless disclosure is required by another provision of this Act, a State or federal law or a court order.

(b-5) Files, documents, and other data or databases maintained by one or more law enforcement agencies and specifically designed to provide information to one or more law enforcement agencies regarding the physical or mental status of one or more individual subjects.

...

(d) Records in the possession of any public body created in the course of administrative enforcement proceedings, and any law enforcement or correctional agency for law enforcement purposes, but only to the extent that disclosure would:

...

(iv) unavoidably disclose the identity of a ... persons who file complaints with or provide information to administrative, investigative, law enforcement, or penal agencies ...

...

(vi) endanger the life or physical safety of law enforcement personnel or any other person ...

...

(d-5) A law enforcement record created for law enforcement purposes and contained in a shared electronic record management system if the law enforcement agency that is the recipient of the request did not create the record, did not participate in or have a role in any of the events which are the subject of the record, and only has access to the record through the shared electronic record management system.

...

(ll) Records concerning the work of the threat assessment team of a school district.

 

So it looks like a court order (subpoena) should do the trick. I look forward to hearing how the battle goes.

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