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Proposal to make ghost guns illegal introduced in IL House


guzzimike66
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Sadly, I don't see this not being passed in Illinois.  THough as described in the article, if true "The transfer, purchase, manufacture, importation and possession of ghost guns illegal" go against established court decisions.  I.E. the ability of Americans to manufacture their own firearms.

 

Though, if it only makes completed, un-serialized firearms   illegal, and not the parts, as mentioned, then it's a toothless virtue signal.  as long as the person puts any serial number on their finished firearm, it is no longer a 'ghost gun'. 

 

And, if they do include parts, imho , a lot depends on the verbiage.  What constitutes it being illegal?  A slab of metal can be machined into an upper or lower, or slide.  At what point in that process is it illegal.  What about replacement parts for non ghost guns?  Those are drop in ready.   The whole parts direction is so Unconstitutional, I can't see, with a legitimate court it ever standing.

 

But, completed, working firearms without a serial number would be a harder court battle.  The only way it has ANY teeth, is if whomever builds said firearm, has to 'register' whatever serial number they put on it OR have to request one from some government agency.  Either one requires a defacto registry.  And THAT is fightable in court.  The other possibility, is making the person file a form with an FFL.  It's not as if we haven't seen Illinois force FFLs to become fill-in State agencies for record keeping, before.  So that's a real possibility.

 

Otherwise, it's no different than having none, if a LAC just stamps whatever on their finished firearm.

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On 3/29/2022 at 10:04 AM, cybermgk said:

...

Though, if it only makes completed, un-serialized firearms   illegal, and not the parts, as mentioned, then it's a toothless virtue signal.  as long as the person puts any serial number on their finished firearm, it is no longer a 'ghost gun'. 

 

...

 

There is a provision allowing an FFL to serialize the firearm and record it's ownership.

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Last night the Joilet Captain was interviewing on Fox32 related to "ghost guns."  He pushed the fact that close to 30% of all seized guns were in fact ghost.  He went on to tell how they've had to start a data collection specifically for them.  When asked what was being recorded he mentioned specifically the make/model/size and color of the gun.  Hard to say for sure but I'd think he's lumping guns with S/N's scratched off with an actual ghost gun.  Rhetorical but, why can't they be honest when speaking?  And why can't any of them make shooting someone more illegaller as opposed to going after ghosts..

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On 3/29/2022 at 2:37 PM, Jeffrey said:

Last night the Joilet Captain was interviewing on Fox32 related to "ghost guns."  He pushed the fact that close to 30% of all seized guns were in fact ghost.  He went on to tell how they've had to start a data collection specifically for them.  When asked what was being recorded he mentioned specifically the make/model/size and color of the gun.  Hard to say for sure but I'd think he's lumping guns with S/N's scratched off with an actual ghost gun.  Rhetorical but, why can't they be honest when speaking?  And why can't any of them make shooting someone more illegaller as opposed to going after ghosts..

 

Seems like an easy way to clean up a stolen gun. Buy an 80% lower, finish it, swap everything over and boom, it's a clean gun.  Will it survive a class where you use 1-2k rounds over a couple of days? Probably not but you won't catch a felony for a defaced serial number.

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On 3/29/2022 at 2:37 PM, Jeffrey said:

He pushed the fact that close to 30% of all seized guns were in fact ghost.  He went on to tell how they've had to start a data collection specifically for them.  When asked what was being recorded he mentioned specifically the make/model/size and color of the gun.  Hard to say for sure but I'd think he's lumping guns with S/N's scratched off with an actual ghost gun. 

 

That's been my criticism for ages... police & politicians say "ghost gun" but don't clarify if the gun(s) in question had the serial removed/defaced or was built on a virgin frame or receiver. They also like to say stuff like "we have seen a 400% increase in recovered ghost guns" but don't provide actual numbers. If 3 were recovered last year and 12 this year that's 400%, but if 1,000 total guns were recovered that's barely 1% of the total and not nearly the pandemic portrayed.

 

Per WGN news in 2020 11,258 were recovered in Chicago but only 139 were so-called "ghost guns", or 1.23% of the total.
https://wgntv.com/news/chicagocrime/ghost-guns-seized-by-chicago-police-steadily-rising-as-biden-administration-plans-to-target-them/

 

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On 3/29/2022 at 1:57 PM, IH8IL said:

You can’t just serialise it. They want a 4473 to go with it. They just don’t want any guns off of the books. If it was for the reasons they describe, why wouldn’t they let us grandfather any we have and let us put a serial number on it without “recording it”.

 

And how are you suppose to serialize something you may have serialized previously? On a P80 Glock clone there is only 1 place to do it so if I have already had my personal serial put on frame(s) there's no way to remedy that. Am I supposed to destroy it?

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I'd agree that this legislation is going nowhere.

 

The problem isn't really the unserialized frames, anyway. The (smaller) problem is that (some) "kits" that are sold to complete the frames are actually stolen guns. How many are stolen guns with the serialized parts disposed? It's tough to say, but it's not a problem that legislation is going to fix. Parts kits composed of brand new parts (e.g., for ARs) from manufacturers are common and legitimate. Parts kits of used parts (e.g., for Glocks) from somebody's basement may or may not be.

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On 3/29/2022 at 3:46 PM, guzzimike66 said:

 

And how are you suppose to serialize something you may have serialized previously? On a P80 Glock clone there is only 1 place to do it so if I have already had my personal serial put on frame(s) there's no way to remedy that. Am I supposed to destroy it?

I’m just going by what they are writing. They don’t want you to serialise it. They want an ffl to do it and “record” and by that they probably mean a 4473 in your name. 

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On 3/29/2022 at 2:37 PM, Jeffrey said:

Last night the Joilet Captain was interviewing on Fox32 related to "ghost guns."  He pushed the fact that close to 30% of all seized guns were in fact ghost.  He went on to tell how they've had to start a data collection specifically for them.  When asked what was being recorded he mentioned specifically the make/model/size and color of the gun.  Hard to say for sure but I'd think he's lumping guns with S/N's scratched off with an actual ghost gun.  Rhetorical but, why can't they be honest when speaking?  And why can't any of them make shooting someone more illegaller as opposed to going after ghosts..

You mean the guy they hired from chicago. Yeah, were gonna just believe him and take his word for it. Sorry, they are just planting the seeds for not having any guns not tied to a 4473. Why do you think they were so hard on for “universal background checks”? It was never about reducing crime but just taking away from the 2nd amendment cake.

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While we all understand that this proposal is meaningless in stopping illegal activity, examining the practicality shows it even more.  Are they planning to build a very expensive database that generates real time serial numbers that must be used and can’t be accidentally replicated by someone else?  A secure live system with immediate response built by the same rocket scientists that can’t print unique FOID cards with the right markings in a several month window? Otherwise every FFL can just just use the same “DUMBILPOLS1” serial number or something more clever on every gun every time or some other coordinated action.  There will 100,000 recorded with that number and described as “black homemade gun” in the 4473 every year?  Another 100,000 described as “black homemade AR-47 assault sniper weapon with that thing that folds up” every year with the serial number “SUCKITIL2”?  Boy, that will stop all crime instantly… all the so called “ghost guns” can be instantly traced back to the true sources of crime then! Oh wait…no?

 

I wonder how some of our so called “leaders” in government can sustain themselves for a full term as they aren’t even smart enough to chew food…

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Sounds like they effectively want a database of who has what.  Isn’t it in 2024 that even to sell a gun private sale that they want you to go through an FFL in this state?  Now they want you to register any unregistered guns?  Sounds like what I’d do if I were getting ready to create a database.  But then what is the next step?  
 

However criminals aren’t going to follow laws about sales or registering their guns, just saying.  I mean really, if you were a bank robber and a bunch of guns would you register them?  So what good are their laws going to actually do?

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On 3/30/2022 at 12:12 AM, IH8IL said:

Make the law abiding people criminals? 

To where people either hand in their guns or they can arrest the person and say they are justified because someone was dangerous and had illegal weapons?

 

 Don’t get me wrong, if laws make sense that’s one thing, but effectively criminalizing activities that were previously legal and treating people who abided fully by the previous law as though they are criminals just doesn’t seem effective.  We’ve got so many gun laws on the books.  How about we hire swarms of good cops and let them do their thing?  

Edited by illinois_buckeye
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The Rules Committee is like a big holding tank.

 

New House bills go to the Rules Committee where they wait to be assigned to other committees.  Some never are.  Some get assigned and are never heard.  Others are referred to the floor but never pass.  These all get referred back to Rules eventually while the more successful ones keep moving through the system.

 

 

 

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On 3/30/2022 at 1:12 PM, SiliconSorcerer said:

 

Are just so stupid they don't realize any gun over 10 years and 1 day old is a ghost gun and if you make it difficult to sell it just encourages people to never sell it legally again? 

 

 

 

No sell, only buy. Also microcenter regularly has coupons for $100 3D printers if you're near one. 

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----> IF <---- I owned any firearms over 10 years old it was already sold legally and the paperwork was destroyed completely legally. 

Who has it now I have no clue, would I go out of the way to put that 12 year firearm back on the books (if I had one), my response would be censored.

If I had any Sig's I suspect I probably would have purchased several in the 70's and 80's and they would still be some of the best guns you could own. 

 

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On 3/29/2022 at 3:04 PM, davel501 said:

 

Seems like an easy way to clean up a stolen gun. Buy an 80% lower, finish it, swap everything over and boom, it's a clean gun.  Will it survive a class where you use 1-2k rounds over a couple of days? Probably not but you won't catch a felony for a defaced serial number.

 

There is no reason you can't complete many of the 80% paperweights into guns that will easily survive 1000s or rounds...  With basic machining skills and half way decent equipment completing an 80% AR lower into something that is every bit as well made as a commericial offing isn't that hard...   There are P80s that have 1000s of rounds through them as well..

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On 3/30/2022 at 6:08 PM, Flynn said:

 

There is no reason you can't complete many of the 80% paperweights into guns that will easily survive 1000s or rounds...  With basic machining skills and half way decent equipment completing an 80% AR lower into something that is every bit as well made as a commericial offing isn't that hard...   There are P80s that have 1000s of rounds through them as well..

With basic machining skills you could turn a block of metal into an AR or a 1911. That's not what we're talking about here. These are polymer framed handguns completed with a 12v Dewalt at the kitchen table. 

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On 3/30/2022 at 9:19 PM, davel501 said:

With basic machining skills you could turn a block of metal into an AR or a 1911. That's not what we're talking about here. These are polymer framed handguns completed with a 12v Dewalt at the kitchen table. 

 

The bill is indiscriminate in banning receivers made of any material but, regardless of the material, trying to finish it at your kitchen table isn't really feasible.  That's the hyperbole of the anti's.

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On 3/30/2022 at 9:36 PM, mauserme said:

 

The bill is indiscriminate in banning receivers made of any material but, regardless of the material, trying to finish it at your kitchen table isn't really feasible.  That's the hyperbole of the anti's.

 

I had it wrong, it was a kitchen counter (looks like a sink to the right) and he used a dremel too. I would have hand filed it because I always overshoot...like how he drilled through into his gun case. I would have done that too. 🤣

 

 

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