mauserme Posted January 21, 2022 at 12:03 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 12:03 PM https://www.advantagenews.com/news/local/granite-city-news/bill-to-fund-micro-stamped-firearms-for-police-advancing-at-illinois-statehouse/article_c39b5b72-793e-11ec-b88d-774d9e87fdea.html Bill to fund micro-stamped firearms for police advancing at Illinois statehouse By Andrew Hensel - Illinois Radio Network A bill filed last year that would create grants for microstamping law enforcement firearms has been scheduled for a second reading in the Illinois House. ... "Microstamping for guns is so that law enforcement can trace a gun that was used in a shooting," Ford said. "So every gun will have a fingerprint so to speak,". The legislation would use tax dollars to create the funding for the distribution of the micro-stamped firearms to law enforcement officers, but Ford said if everything goes smoothly, lawmakers could see it expand to other gun owners. "We use microstamping to trace shootings, and if we get it approved through law enforcement, then maybe we should expand it to other gun owners," Ford said. ... (emphasis added) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solareclipse2 Posted January 21, 2022 at 01:46 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 01:46 PM Isn't microstamping that thing California mandated for all new firearms to be on their roster? And I thought because microstamping doesn't actually exist, it's why California doesn't have any new firearms on its roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illinois Sucks Posted January 21, 2022 at 02:03 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 02:03 PM They want to "fingerprint" your gun so it would be easier to trace a gun that was used in a shooting. What would the point of this be if they don't do anything to the person using the gun to commit crime? Oh.. yeah. it's to slide funds to their cronies who have bribed them to enact these laws. With the side benefit of making it harder and more expensive for law abiding citizens to purchase guns to defend themselves against people who vote for a living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odinson Posted January 21, 2022 at 02:12 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 02:12 PM I thought ballistics did this already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davel501 Posted January 21, 2022 at 02:32 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 02:32 PM I'm interested to see how they implement this in a firearm. It's a risky move to start with the police where someone will die if these cause malfunctions vs duck hunters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illinois Sucks Posted January 21, 2022 at 03:41 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 03:41 PM On 1/21/2022 at 8:32 AM, davel501 said: I'm interested to see how they implement this in a firearm. It's a risky move to start with the police where someone will die if these cause malfunctions vs duck hunters. It makes sense to adopt in for the "government" first so they don't have civilian pushback. Then once "working", require it for everyone for the "safety of the officers".. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solareclipse2 Posted January 21, 2022 at 03:48 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 03:48 PM On 1/21/2022 at 9:41 AM, Illinois Sucks said: It makes sense to adopt in for the "government" first so they don't have civilian pushback. Then once "working", require it for everyone for the "safety of the officers".. I said the same about "smart guns". Until it's issued to every law enforcement agency and our fighting forces and is good enough for them then it's not good enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davel501 Posted January 21, 2022 at 03:58 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 03:58 PM On 1/21/2022 at 9:48 AM, solareclipse2 said: I said the same about "smart guns". Until it's issued to every law enforcement agency and our fighting forces and is good enough for them then it's not good enough for me. Yep! The police should have to beta test anything that is required. They also should not be able to possess any weapons in any manner that is inconsistent with the way that the average voter of their jurisdiction would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagSlap Posted January 21, 2022 at 04:18 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 04:18 PM On 1/21/2022 at 9:58 AM, davel501 said: Yep! The police should have to beta test anything that is required. They also should not be able to possess any weapons in any manner that is inconsistent with the way that the average voter of their jurisdiction would. Struts out the door to pick up some flash bangs and an MRAP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybermgk Posted January 21, 2022 at 04:26 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 04:26 PM [sigh] EVEN if the tech worked flawlessly, it is useless for the stated purpose. WELL over 90% (depending on locale) of gun homicides are committed related to the drug trade and/or gang related activity. Again, well over 90% of those who have been incarcerated for a gun homicide, or gun related crime or shooting, say they used an illegally obtained gun. Microstamping, again, if it worked flawlessly, is only of use, if the person responsible for the shooting, legally bought the firearm, and thus there is a record somewhere associating that person to that microstamp. But, as we see, that is a tiny percentage of homicides. AND, that is assuming those few don't disappear, when this becomes a thing. Otherwise it is just an expensive means to match a shell casing to a firearm. It's not even as good of evidence as current ballistics matching which at least can match some fired projectiles to a gun. A matched shell at a scene is circumstantial evidence at best. "But, it will at least capture straw purchasers" some might counter. Doubtful. The only straw purchasers that matter in this regard, are those doing so to sell illegally by design. For this to stem that flow, assumes extremely stupid criminals in this regard. It assumes they wouldn't be smart enough (if not already doing this) and 'laundering' the guns. IOW, that they don't or wouldn't start selling first, illegally to a 'distributor' that then sells them individually on the black market. Of course, those that buy in other states that have no microstamping idiot laws, wouldn't have to change their ways at all. ALL of that assumes, that the criminal element doesn't just disable the microstamping and conduct business as usual. "But, we'll make that illegal". So is the illegal selling and using of guns, let alone homicide. If just making it illegal worked, you wouldn't need microstamping, now would you.? The only people this would 'catch', is the rare person, whom until the incident, were law abiding, and defended themselves, and fled the scene (fleeing the scene makes them no longer law abiding, not the defense of self), or the already slam dunk cases of law abiding owners killing a family member in a heat of the moment thing. In other words, it is a useless thing. Do I have to even mention the close to half a billion firearms already out there, without microstamping? Put microstamping in, and all you will do is make those MORE of a theft target, upping those crimes even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davel501 Posted January 21, 2022 at 04:29 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 04:29 PM On 1/21/2022 at 10:18 AM, MagSlap said: Struts out the door to pick up some flash bangs and an MRAP It's not illegal to own an MRAP and, heck, flash bangs are just fancy fireworks. Regular people can buy much bigger with the right paperwork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikew Posted January 21, 2022 at 05:19 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 05:19 PM On 1/21/2022 at 10:26 AM, cybermgk said: ALL of that assumes, that the criminal element doesn't just disable the microstamping and conduct business as usual. "But, we'll make that illegal". So is the illegal selling and using of guns, let alone homicide. If just making it illegal worked, you wouldn't need microstamping, now would you.? Not sure why criminals would even bother with the microstamping one way or another? Think the markings would implicate anyone but the first legal purchaser? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagSlap Posted January 21, 2022 at 05:19 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 05:19 PM New gov gun law Another gazillion dollars. No evidence to support it would actually 'work'. Every schmoe with a tool box... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagSlap Posted January 21, 2022 at 05:25 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 05:25 PM Can't wait to see collected brass from a range to be sprinkled at random crime scenes... Or just toss out handfuls onto the the expressways around chicago... Or any random street around chicago.... Or...anywhere.... Derp...derp...derp.... Look at me! I'm a 'law maker!!' Herp..derp..derp... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davel501 Posted January 21, 2022 at 05:31 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 05:31 PM I have to wonder what that stamp would look like after the brass has been reloaded 2-3 times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauserme Posted January 21, 2022 at 06:12 PM Author Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 06:12 PM On 1/21/2022 at 11:31 AM, davel501 said: I have to wonder what that stamp would look like after the brass has been reloaded 2-3 times. Or if you reload brass picked up at the range. Brass stamped with multiple identifiers can't be very useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odinson Posted January 21, 2022 at 06:21 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 06:21 PM On 1/21/2022 at 8:12 AM, Odinson said: I thought ballistics did this already. Oh this nonsense stamps the casing. Never mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou Posted January 21, 2022 at 06:26 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 06:26 PM On 1/21/2022 at 12:12 PM, mauserme said: Or if you reload brass picked up at the range. Brass stamped with multiple identifiers can't be very useful. Nobody in their right mind actually believes this will have any effect on reducing gang violence. The ACTUAL purpose is so the the politicians can claim they “did something.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davel501 Posted January 21, 2022 at 06:51 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 06:51 PM On 1/21/2022 at 12:12 PM, mauserme said: Or if you reload brass picked up at the range. Brass stamped with multiple identifiers can't be very useful. Thinking about how this would have to work, it would be moving object, like an extractor. You'd have to be able to take it out and clean it or replace it when it wears out. What's to stop people from switching the numbers or taking the device out altogether? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kipp Jones Posted January 21, 2022 at 07:26 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 07:26 PM Sounds like Ford advocated for civilians to have guns with the same features as law enforcement government. Ok, then that applies to suppressors and fully automatic weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stats Posted January 21, 2022 at 07:55 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 07:55 PM On 1/21/2022 at 9:58 AM, davel501 said: Yep! The police should have to beta test anything that is required. I really do not think that there is an agency of the state that would be able to pull off such an large technological undertaking. For example, in a recent audit of the ISP, it found that they still had computers using Windows 7 (Released 2009), lost computers with "sensitive" information, and did not have a project management office. Additionally, the ISP was dinged for not getting its vehicles maintained properly- oil changes and other maintenance. So if they cannot get some basic operational procedures down pat, I would suggest that any cutting edge technologies would be challenging, at best. The audit can be found here: https://www.auditor.illinois.gov/Audit-Reports/Compliance-Agency-List/ISP/FY20-ISP-Comp-Full.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagSlap Posted January 21, 2022 at 08:04 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 08:04 PM Thats easy enough... They can just 'sweep' funds from FOID/CCL coffers... Its not like they havent done it before...right? RIGHT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobPistol Posted January 21, 2022 at 08:23 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 08:23 PM On 1/21/2022 at 7:12 AM, Odinson said: I thought ballistics did this already. SHHHHHHHHHHHHH! How are they supposed to enrich cronies this way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Posted January 21, 2022 at 09:22 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 09:22 PM Someone should ask the authors what group of people the target for this proposal is geared towards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikew Posted January 21, 2022 at 10:35 PM Share Posted January 21, 2022 at 10:35 PM On 1/21/2022 at 12:51 PM, davel501 said: Thinking about how this would have to work, it would be moving object, like an extractor. You'd have to be able to take it out and clean it or replace it when it wears out. What's to stop people from switching the numbers or taking the device out altogether? Typically, it's coming from two places: the bolt face and the business end of the firing pin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euler Posted January 22, 2022 at 03:00 AM Share Posted January 22, 2022 at 03:00 AM HB2769 Amendment 4 said: (5 ILCS 100/5-45.21 new) Sec. 5-45.21. Emergency rulemaking; Illinois Criminal Justice Information Authority. To provide for the expeditious and timely implementation of the Microstamping Funding Program Act, emergency rules implementing the Microstamping Funding Program Act may be adopted in accordance with Section 5-45 by the Illinois Criminal Justice Information Authority. The adoption of emergency rules authorized by Section 5-45 and this Section is deemed to be necessary for the public interest, safety, and welfare. This Section is repealed one year after the effective date of this amendatory Act of the 102nd General Assembly. If I understand correctly, the "Act" authorizes the Illinois Criminal Justice Information Authority to establish funding for a microstamp program, which doesn't necessarily create, test, or issue microstamping firearms. I believe that the ICJIA doesn't do anything other than apply for federal grants and shuffle money from grants to various law enforcement agencies. Presumably if law enforcement agencies wanted to issue or test microstamping firearms, they'd ask ICJIA for funds to buy them and/or test them (whatever "testing" means). There still have to be agencies which want to issue microstamping firearms to their personnel and presumably personnel who want to carry them. If we as private individuals buy firearms that have been issued to police by their departments, will we be accused of using "police-style" weapons? With some police personnel having trouble with P320 adoption (although still an extreme minority, I think), why should we trust the outcome of some other (extremely small) weapon adoption? I'm not sure this bill does anything, even if it passes, other than waste whatever money it manages to control, especially since there are no microstamping firearms. No number of emergency rules are going to summon them into existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauserme Posted January 22, 2022 at 01:34 PM Author Share Posted January 22, 2022 at 01:34 PM The statement of legislative findings in SB2769 makes clear their intention to make this a broader mandate. This is confirmed by Representative Ford's statements quoted above. 7 Section 5. Legislative findings. The General Assembly 8 finds that: 9 Law enforcement makes an arrest in only 35% of firearm 10 homicides and 21% of firearm assaults when the victim was 11 Black or Hispanic. Microstamping is a powerful crime-solving 12 tool that can help law enforcement quickly solve gun crimes. 13 Microstamping is a reliable ballistics identification tool, 14 and can greatly enhance traditional ballistics analysis and 15 the current National Integrated Ballistics Information Network 16 (NIBIN) system by providing a direct link between a spent 10200HB2769ham004 - 2 - LRB102 13208 RLC 32263 a 1 cartridge case and a firearm. 2 The leads generated from fired cartridge cases, bearing 3 microstamps found at crime scenes, have the potential to help 4 law enforcement solve gun-related crimes while limiting 5 negative interactions with law enforcement, especially in 6 minority communities. While this crime-solving technology 7 exists, firearm manufacturers have not yet produced 8 microstamp-ready firearms. 9 It behooves the State to install a program in partnership 10 with law enforcement to bring microstamp-ready firearms into 11 use in Illinois. The purpose of this bill is to create a market for “microstamp ready” firearms where no such market would exist on it's own. It is to provide a financial incentive to develop a product, get that product into law enforcement use even to a small degree, then argue that if law enforcement uses it there's no reason to not require it of regular gun owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felixd Posted January 22, 2022 at 04:20 PM Share Posted January 22, 2022 at 04:20 PM So what friend of a Socialist Democratic Party member is in the micro stamping business? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikew Posted January 22, 2022 at 04:57 PM Share Posted January 22, 2022 at 04:57 PM On 1/22/2022 at 10:20 AM, Felixd said: So what friend of a Socialist Democratic Party member is in the micro stamping business? Tell me the patents aren't soon to expire... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikew Posted January 22, 2022 at 05:06 PM Share Posted January 22, 2022 at 05:06 PM Overall, try to envision the long term consequences of this. Remember hearing about car theft, and how easy it was to steal a car in the past? And over several decades we now have cars that are hard to steal without the key. Because of surveillance cameras and tracking devices, one reason to steal a car is to be able to commit crimes without a trace back to the criminal. And now car theft has gone from a crime against unattended property to a crime against people. And the license plates, VIN, hidden serial numbers, OnStar, etc, only tie the car to whom it was stolen from. Now think about microstamping... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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