Euler Posted November 22, 2021 at 09:39 PM Share Posted November 22, 2021 at 09:39 PM I thought there was a topic for this case, but I can't find it if there is. The suit was brought in the Eastern Wisconsin Federal District Court, which is the jurisdiction where Armslist is incorporated. The estranged husband of Sara Schmidt was a prohibited person. He bought a firearm from a listing on Armslist, then used the firearm to kill her and himself. Webber, representing the estate of Sara Schmidt, sued Armslist for her wrongful death, claiming that Armslist, by its design, assisted the sale of a firearm to Schmidt's estranged husband and failed to investigate him as a potential buyer to prevent the sale. Armslist moved to dismiss the lawsuit on two grounds: (1) the Communications Decency Act provides "safe harbor" immunity to web sites regarding content posted by others; and (2) Armslist was uninvolved in the actions of Schmidt's husband. Webber moved to have the case removed to the Western Pennsylvania Federal District Court, which is the jurisdiction where the events of the case took place. The judge rejected the defendant motion to dismiss the case based on the CDA (citing the CDA's safe harbor intent was to provide protection only for defamation, obscenity, and copyright infringement, as per the CA7 precedent) and plaintiff motion to remove the case to Pennsylvania. He granted the defendant motion to dismiss based on Armslist "being too remote" from the actions of Schmidt's husband. Decision (PDF) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawman Posted November 22, 2021 at 11:09 PM Share Posted November 22, 2021 at 11:09 PM Actually, it was dismissed on causation grounds. The court stated that even if the Plaintiff had proved causation, the court would still have dismissed the complaint on public policy grounds as the alleged negligence was too remote from the injury. The actions of the killer constituted a superseding cause, alleviating the Defendants of liability. (Order at pgs 20-21.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauserme Posted November 23, 2021 at 02:16 AM Share Posted November 23, 2021 at 02:16 AM I'm sure we can all agree that this is an interesting case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euler Posted July 23, 2022 at 10:30 PM Author Share Posted July 23, 2022 at 10:30 PM The case has been appealed to the 7th Circuit. ED Wisc docket CA7 docket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunuser17 Posted July 24, 2022 at 01:25 AM Share Posted July 24, 2022 at 01:25 AM 06/21/2022 32 NOTICE: Attorney John D. Kimball for Appellants Erin Bauer and Estate of Paul Bauer in 21-3207 will not be available for oral argument June 30-July 15 / August 1, 2, 4-5, 8-30 / September 1-2, 14-17, 22-23 / October 7-21 / November 14 through December 23, 2022.. [32] [7243438] [21-3198, 21-3207] (Kimball, John) [Entered: 06/21/2022 10:35 AM] 07/08/2022 33 Argument set for Tuesday, September 13, 2022, at 9:30 a.m. in the Main Courtroom, Room 2721, of the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit, 219 S. Dearborn Street, Chicago, Illinois. Each side limited to 15 minutes. [33] [7247063] [21-3198, 21-3207] (LCP) [Entered: 07/08/2022 04:12 PM] 07/14/2022 34 Received argument confirmation from Brian A. Sutherland for Appellees Armslist, LLC and Jonathan Gibbon in 21-3198, 21-3207. [34] [7248393] [21-3198, 21-3207] (Sutherland, Brian) [Entered: 07/14/2022 09:44 PM] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euler Posted August 4, 2022 at 02:04 AM Author Share Posted August 4, 2022 at 02:04 AM Argument set for Tuesday, September 13, 2022, at 9:30 a.m. in the Main Courtroom, Room 2721, of the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit, 219 S. Dearborn Street, Chicago, Illinois. Docket extract from PACER: General Docket Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals Court of Appeals Docket #: 21-3198 Docketed: 11/24/2021 Nature of Suit: 3360 Other Personal Injury Richard Webber v. Armslist, LLC, et al Appeal From: Eastern District of Wisconsin Fee Status: Paid Case Type Information: 1) civil 2) private 3) - Originating Court Information: District: 0757-1 : 1:20-cv-01526-WCG Trial Judge: William C. Griesbach, District Court Judge Date Filed: 10/01/2020 Date Order/Judgment: Date NOA Filed: 11/10/2021 11/23/2021 05/18/2022 27 Motion filed by Appellant Richard Webber in 21-3198 to extend time to file appellant reply brief. [27] [7236961] [21-3198, 21-3207] (Kimball, John) [Entered: 05/18/2022 11:49 AM] 05/18/2022 28 Order issued GRANTING motion to extend time to file appellants' reply brief. [27] Appellants' joint consolidated reply brief, if any, is due on or before 06/15/2022 for Appellants Richard Webber, Erin Bauer and Estate of Paul Bauer. CMD [28] [7237089] [21-3198, 21-3207] (FP) [Entered: 05/18/2022 02:58 PM] 06/15/2022 29 Submitted appellant reply brief by John D. Kimball for Appellant Richard Webber in 21-3198, Appellants Erin Bauer and Estate of Paul Bauer in 21-3207. [29] NOTE: Access to this entry is limited to counsel of record. Once the document is approved by the court, it will be filed onto the court's docket as a separate entry which will be open to the public. [7242620] [21-3198, 21-3207] (Kimball, John) [Entered: 06/15/2022 10:55 AM] 06/15/2022 30 Appellant's reply brief filed by Appellant Richard Webber in 21-3198, Appellants Erin Bauer and Estate of Paul Bauer in 21-3207. Paper copies due on 06/22/2022. Electronically Transmitted. REMINDER: Hearing notices are mailed shortly before the date of oral argument. Please note that counsel's unavailability for oral argument must be submitted by letter, filed electronically with the Clerk's Office, no later than the filing of the appellant's brief in a criminal case and the filing of an appellee's brief in a civil case. See Cir. R. 34(b)(3). The court's calendar is located at http://www.ca7.uscourts.gov/cal/argcalendar.pdf. Once scheduled, oral argument is rescheduled only in extraordinary circumstances. See Cir. R. 34(b)(4), (e). [30] [7242649] [21-3198, 21-3207] (LCP) [Entered: 06/15/2022 11:48 AM] 06/17/2022 31 Paper copies of appellant reply brief filed by Appellant Richard Webber in 21-3198, Appellants Erin Bauer and Estate of Paul Bauer in 21-3207. [31] [7243114] [21-3198, 21-3207] (LCP) [Entered: 06/17/2022 10:36 AM] 06/21/2022 32 NOTICE: Attorney John D. Kimball for Appellants Erin Bauer and Estate of Paul Bauer in 21-3207 will not be available for oral argument June 30-July 15 / August 1, 2, 4-5, 8-30 / September 1-2, 14-17, 22-23 / October 7-21 / November 14 through December 23, 2022.. [32] [7243438] [21-3198, 21-3207] (Kimball, John) [Entered: 06/21/2022 10:35 AM] 07/08/2022 33 Argument set for Tuesday, September 13, 2022, at 9:30 a.m. in the Main Courtroom, Room 2721, of the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit, 219 S. Dearborn Street, Chicago, Illinois. Each side limited to 15 minutes. [33] [7247063] [21-3198, 21-3207] (LCP) [Entered: 07/08/2022 04:12 PM] 07/14/2022 34 Received argument confirmation from Brian A. Sutherland for Appellees Armslist, LLC and Jonathan Gibbon in 21-3198, 21-3207. [34] [7248393] [21-3198, 21-3207] (Sutherland, Brian) [Entered: 07/14/2022 09:44 PM] 07/26/2022 35 Received argument confirmation from Jonathan Lowy for Appellant Richard Webber in 21-3198, Appellants Erin Bauer and Estate of Paul Bauer in 21-3207. [35] [7250640] [21-3198, 21-3207] (Kimball, John) [Entered: 07/26/2022 02:26 PM] 07/28/2022 36 Argument set for Tuesday, September 13, 2022, at 9:30 a.m. in the Main Courtroom, Room 2721, of the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit, 219 S. Dearborn Street, Chicago, Illinois. Each side limited to 15 minutes. [36] [7251230] [21-3198, 21-3207]--[Edited 07/28/2022 by MAN to include updated procedures pursuant to General Order 22-002] (MAN) [Entered: 07/28/2022 03:29 PM] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euler Posted September 19, 2022 at 12:05 AM Author Share Posted September 19, 2022 at 12:05 AM Oral arguments were held on September 13. Audio (mp3) 07/28/2022 36 Argument set for Tuesday, September 13, 2022, at 9:30 a.m. in the Main Courtroom, Room 2721, of the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit, 219 S. Dearborn Street, Chicago, Illinois. Each side limited to 15 minutes. [36] [7251230] [21-3198, 21-3207]--[Edited 07/28/2022 by MAN to include updated procedures pursuant to General Order 22-002] (MAN) [Entered: 07/28/2022 03:29 PM] 09/02/2022 37 Received argument confirmation per argument email form for Attorney Brian A. Sutherland for Appellees Armslist, LLC and Jonathan Gibbon in 21-3198, 21-3207. [37] [7258386] [21-3198, 21-3207] (SK) [Entered: 09/02/2022 12:04 PM] 09/06/2022 38 Received argument confirmation per argument email form for Attorney Jon Lowy for Appellant Richard Webber in 21-3198, Attorney Jon Lowy for Appellants Erin Bauer and Estate of Paul Bauer in 21-3207. [38] [7258558] [21-3198, 21-3207] (SK) [Entered: 09/06/2022 09:14 AM] 09/13/2022 39 Case heard and taken under advisement by panel: Joel M. Flaum, Circuit Judge; Michael B. Brennan, Circuit Judge and Michael Y. Scudder, Circuit Judge. [39] [7260181] [21-3198, 21-3207] (KRA) [Entered: 09/13/2022 01:11 PM] 09/13/2022 40 Case argued by Jon Lowy for Appellant Richard Webber and Brian A. Sutherland for Appellees Armslist, LLC and Jonathan Gibbon in 21-3198, Jon Lowy for Appellants Erin Bauer and Estate of Paul Bauer and Brian A. Sutherland for Appellees Armslist, LLC and Jonathan Gibbon in 21-3207. [40] [7260188] [21-3198, 21-3207] (KRA) [Entered: 09/13/2022 01:15 PM] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euler Posted February 14, 2023 at 10:16 PM Author Share Posted February 14, 2023 at 10:16 PM Mostly still just waiting for the ruling ... 01/26/2023 41 Filed notice of change of address for Jonathan Lowy. [41] [7287313] [21-3207, 21-3198] (Lowy, Jon) [Entered: 01/26/2023 11:33 AM] 01/26/2023 42 Motion filed by attorney Jill Lipman Beck to withdraw as counsel for Appellant Richard Webber in 21-3198 and Appellants Estate of Paul Bauer and Erin Bauer in 21-3207. [42] [7287316] [21-3198, 21-3207]--[Edited 01/26/2023 by HTP to reflect attorney motion filed.] (Beck, Jill) [Entered: 01/26/2023 11:37 AM] 01/26/2023 43 ORDER re: Withdrawal of appearance of Jill Lipman Beck. [42] The motion is GRANTED and attorney Jill Lipman Beck may withdraw from further representation of appellants Richard Webber, Erin Bauer and the Estate of Paul Bauer in this matter. Attorney John D. Kimball shall continue to serve as counsel of record for appellants Richard Webber, Erin Bauer and the Estate of Paul Bauer. CDH [43] [7287479] [21-3198, 21-3207] (PS) [Entered: 01/26/2023 04:18 PM] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molly B. Posted June 14, 2023 at 07:14 PM Share Posted June 14, 2023 at 07:14 PM We can get good rulings from the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit . Quote Brady Bunch Loses a Significant Appeal: Yesterday, Monday, June 12, 2023, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit affirmed the prior dismissal of two lawsuits filed against Armslist.com by the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Wisconsin. In other words, Armslist won at the lower court and its victory was affirmed by a higher court. The two lawsuits were Webber v. Armslist and Bauer v. Armslist, both of which have been covered here at Bearing Arms before. First, a quick recap: Webber v. Armslist was filed by the estate of Sara Schmidt, a victim of domestic violence who was murdered by her estranged husband in 2018. Bauer v. Armslist was filed by the estate of Paul Bauer, a Chicago Police Commander who was killed by a four-time convicted felon. Both perpetrators were prohibited persons who bought their guns from private sellers via ads posted on Armslist.com. Armslist is like Craigslist. It exists because other large market players like Craigslist, eBay, etc. do not allow listing guns. Allowing what are essentially classified ads, which are not abused by the overwhelming majority of website visitors, does not make Armslist culpable for the actions of the miniscule number of criminals who use their website. Armslist has a massive disclaimer that notifies every visitor that they must follow all federal, state, and local laws. Beyond this, there is nothing they can do. Once a private seller and a buyer get in touch with each other, ensuring the legality of the transaction is upon them, not on Armslist. Affirming the dismissal of the cases, the U.S. Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals said the following: “The plaintiffs assert that the defendants designed the website to encourage and assist individuals in circumventing federal and state law regulating firearms. The defendants argue that the plaintiffs have failed to state a claim upon which relief can be granted because publishing third-party offers to sell firearms does not establish tort or other liability under Wisconsin law... The district court dismissed the negligence claim in both cases, concluding that the plaintiffs failed to plausibly allege the website’s design caused the deaths. The remaining claims were also dismissed, and in Bauer, Gibbon was dismissed from the lawsuit for lack of personal jurisdiction... The defendants ask us to affirm the dismissal of the plaintiffs’ claims, either on the merits under Wisconsin law or as preempted by the Communications Decency Act (CDA), 47 U.S.C. § 230. The CDA precludes a website from being “treated” as the “publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider.” § 230(c)(1). We agree with the defendants that the district court lacked personal jurisdiction over Gibbon. We also affirm the district court’s dismissal of the plaintiffs’ negligence and other state law claims against Armslist LLC. Because we affirm on the state law claims, we decline to rule on the preemption issue.” The ruling was entirely within the bounds of Wisconsin State Law and the federal Communications Decency Act was not even touched upon... The Firearms Policy Coalition noted this blurb in the ruling about the attempted blame-shifting: "These provisions no more endorse illegal activity than a 'swim at your own risk' sign placed at a hotel pool endorses using the pool to drown another." ... https://bearingarms.com/ranjit-singh/2023/06/13/brady-center-loses-two-more-lawsuits-against-armslist-com-n71400 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euler Posted June 14, 2023 at 07:33 PM Author Share Posted June 14, 2023 at 07:33 PM Just a reminder: The arguments were back in September. This decision was baking for 9 months. The decision was a 3-judge panel: Flaum, Brennan, and Scudder. There could be en banc yet. Meanwhile the appellants (i.e., Webber et al.) are ordered to pay Armslist's legal bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
springfield shooter Posted June 14, 2023 at 07:53 PM Share Posted June 14, 2023 at 07:53 PM On 6/14/2023 at 2:33 PM, Euler said: ......The decision was a 3-judge panel: Flaum, Brennan, and Scudder...... Nominated by Reagan, Trump, and Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euler Posted July 2, 2023 at 07:15 AM Author Share Posted July 2, 2023 at 07:15 AM On June 26, plaintiffs (i.e., Webber) filed a petition for the case to be reheard en banc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euler Posted July 19, 2023 at 03:26 AM Author Share Posted July 19, 2023 at 03:26 AM On July 2, 2023 at 02:15 AM, Euler said:→On June 26, plaintiffs (i.e., Webber) filed a petition for the case to be reheard en banc. On July 13, the Circuit Court denied the plaintiffs' petition to rehear the case en banc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsoldier321 Posted July 19, 2023 at 04:37 AM Share Posted July 19, 2023 at 04:37 AM Thank you Euler for keeping the threads updated with legal status and changes as these cases move along....I know you are doing that for multiple court cases right now, it is very much appreciated. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molly B. Posted July 21, 2023 at 03:48 PM Share Posted July 21, 2023 at 03:48 PM I second that applause and gratitude! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euler Posted July 21, 2023 at 10:10 PM Author Share Posted July 21, 2023 at 10:10 PM I'm awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euler Posted July 22, 2023 at 01:39 AM Author Share Posted July 22, 2023 at 01:39 AM On July 21, the Circuit court notified the District court that the dismissal of the case was affirmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euler Posted October 24, 2023 at 09:19 PM Author Share Posted October 24, 2023 at 09:19 PM It's been more then 90 days without a petition for certiorari. That makes this case all the way dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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