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Suggestions for starting Home-based FFL


lurker501
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I'm in the middle of trying to start a home-based FFL. The FFL type I'm attempting to get is a Type 7. A large part would be Transfers, then sales by request, and finally some simple manufacturing (completing 80% and getting them stamped)

I have already created an LLC, gotten my EIN and Illinois Tax ID number (which they suggested making my primary business "retail") and have a complete e-commerce site through GoDaddy (not published yet)

 

I'm about to get my application in to the ATF, but I need to confirm that the Village of Bartlett (Cook county side) will not have an issue with what is technically a "Manufacturing FFL license"

I don't plan on setting up a machine shop in my garage, just working with my home woodworking tools to do any work.

 

The very nice lady at the Village Zoning department asked me to submit the Home Occupation form and she would show it to the Village lawyers to get approval before moving on.

She asked me to be descriptive about what I will be doing for the business.

 

Does anyone have any advice on this whole process or changes to the below description that I'm submitting.

 

 

 

 

Thanks!

 

Rick

 

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Thanks you for responding mab22, I have tried to find an attorney that is familiar with FFLs and LLCs, I have even contacted the NRA and NRA-ILA and was not able to get help. I have contacted Shaw Law, LTD in Waukegan, IL and he referred me to Michael Danforth in Barrington, which has not returned my calls. I then did some more research and found David G. Sigale in Wheaton. Unfortunately I have not been able to get any attorney to respond.

If anyone has suggestions, I would love to hear them.

 

Thanks.

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If the ATF believes you are going to get a FFL to make $$$, you got it. Before I submitted my FFL, I contacted the business licensing woman and asked if they would issue me a home occupation business license for selling firearms. With a few rumbles, she said yes. They required the ATF issue the license 1st, where ATF's policy is the opposite. Don't be discouraged, my ATF IOI guy said this happens all the time and he issued me the FFL 1st. I took it to my village and in 1 week, I got the signatures from: fire chief, police chief, business manager, and my business licensing woman. Now the 07, I tried this year to get my 07/02 and the business licensing woman and business manager were on board. The police chief joined the crowd and it turns out that Oak Lawn has an ordinance that only allows FFL 01 & 03s within village limits. Crash and burn. Read Bartlett's ordinance and make sure they don't have the same provision as Oak Lawn. There is a good possibility that your town might only allow a FFL 01. Don't waste your time with getting an SOT 03, IL law prohibits FFL 01 dealers from selling NFA items.
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  • 1 month later...

Short update: 

David Sigale did return my call and we came to an agreement on retaining his services.  He helped me construct the details on the form and am hoping to hear from the village by Tuesday or Wednesday.

I will update this thread occasionally through my journey.

 

Thank you everyone for your suggestions and help 

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  • 5 months later...

Alright folks, it was a long time coming but I'm finally up and running my home based FFL business.  I am about to do my first 2 transfers this week (pending background checks of course)

 

I  have set up relationships with a few distributors also to do "per request" (non-inventory) sales.  Unfortunately some distributors will not work with me because I live on the Cook County side of Bartlett.  Distributors such as Palmetto State Armory will not do business with me because of Cook County's anti 2A "Assault Weapon" ban.

I work part time at Cabela's and they are also in Cook County, but Hoffman Estates is a Home Rule village and they have verbiage in their codes that Cook County's ban does not apply to them.

 

I spoke to a Deputy Chief in the Bartlett Police department and he said that when the county ban went into effect in 2018, the village said they would not put anything in their codes banning any weapons.  In effect, they are not against ARs.

But this apparently is not enough, it needs to be codified that Bartlett will not accept Cook County's ban.

 

I spoke to one of the code officials and they said that it might help if I can get pro 2A groups behind me to get this verbiage placed into the Bartlett code.  The difficult thing is that Bartlett is in 3 different counties, so a small section of Bartlett is in Cook County.

 

If anyone knows of any pro 2A groups in Bartlett, It might help my case.

 

This is the section of the Hoffman Estates code that I'm talking about:

 

"Sec. 8-7-6. - Firearms, airguns and explosive toys.

 

A.

It is intended that this Section shall pre-empt all Cook County licensing or other regulatory schemes for firearms, and firearms dealers. As provided in Article VII, Section 6(c) of the State of Illinois Constitution of 1970, if a county ordinance conflicts with an ordinance of a municipality, the municipality ordinance shall prevail within its jurisdiction.

B.

It is specifically intended that this Section shall pre-empt the Cook County Firearms Dealer's License Ordinance as now in effect or as may be hereafter amended, and the Cook County Assault Weapons and Assault Ammunition Ban Ordinance as now in effect or as may be hereafter amended.

C.

License Required. No person shall engage in the business of selling, or to commercially sell, loan or give away to any person within the Village, any pistol, revolver, derringer, shotgun, rifle or other weapon of like character without securing a license so to do.

D.

Regulations. The applicant shall comply with all applicable regulations of the Police Department.

(Ord. No. 4238-2011, § 3(Exh. A), 5-2-11)"

 

Thanks.

 

Ricardo Garcia

Full Metal Arms, LLC

www.fullmetal-arms.com

 

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On 2/14/2022 at 6:30 PM, lurker501 said:

Alright folks, it was a long time coming but I'm finally up and running my home based FFL business.  I am about to do my first 2 transfers this week (pending background checks of course)

 

I  have set up relationships with a few distributors also to do "per request" (non-inventory) sales.  Unfortunately some distributors will not work with me because I live on the Cook County side of Bartlett.  Distributors such as Palmetto State Armory will not do business with me because of Cook County's anti 2A "Assault Weapon" ban.

I work part time at Cabela's and they are also in Cook County, but Hoffman Estates is a Home Rule village and they have verbiage in their codes that Cook County's ban does not apply to them.

 

I spoke to a Deputy Chief in the Bartlett Police department and he said that when the county ban went into effect in 2018, the village said they would not put anything in their codes banning any weapons.  In effect, they are not against ARs.

But this apparently is not enough, it needs to be codified that Bartlett will not accept Cook County's ban.

 

I spoke to one of the code officials and they said that it might help if I can get pro 2A groups behind me to get this verbiage placed into the Bartlett code.  The difficult thing is that Bartlett is in 3 different counties, so a small section of Bartlett is in Cook County.

 

If anyone knows of any pro 2A groups in Bartlett, It might help my case.

 

This is the section of the Hoffman Estates code that I'm talking about:

 

"Sec. 8-7-6. - Firearms, airguns and explosive toys.

 

A.

It is intended that this Section shall pre-empt all Cook County licensing or other regulatory schemes for firearms, and firearms dealers. As provided in Article VII, Section 6(c) of the State of Illinois Constitution of 1970, if a county ordinance conflicts with an ordinance of a municipality, the municipality ordinance shall prevail within its jurisdiction.

B.

It is specifically intended that this Section shall pre-empt the Cook County Firearms Dealer's License Ordinance as now in effect or as may be hereafter amended, and the Cook County Assault Weapons and Assault Ammunition Ban Ordinance as now in effect or as may be hereafter amended.

C.

License Required. No person shall engage in the business of selling, or to commercially sell, loan or give away to any person within the Village, any pistol, revolver, derringer, shotgun, rifle or other weapon of like character without securing a license so to do.

D.

Regulations. The applicant shall comply with all applicable regulations of the Police Department.

(Ord. No. 4238-2011, § 3(Exh. A), 5-2-11)"

 

Thanks.

 

Ricardo Garcia

Full Metal Arms, LLC

www.fullmetal-arms.com

 

 

So does, "C", mean no private transfers?

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On 2/15/2022 at 10:20 AM, Talonap said:

 

So does, "C", mean no private transfers?

So who did you speak to with Palmetto? I am a FFL 01 in Oak Lawn and I signed up with Palmetto about 2yrs ago. I got a sales rep and buy dealer direct. They did make me sign some liability forms for being home-based in Cook County but that was it. PM me on IC, call, or text if you need some assistance, 312-217-3863. 

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On 2/15/2022 at 2:39 PM, ealcala31 said:

So who did you speak to with Palmetto? I am a FFL 01 in Oak Lawn and I signed up with Palmetto about 2yrs ago. I got a sales rep and buy dealer direct. They did make me sign some liability forms for being home-based in Cook County but that was it. PM me on IC, call, or text if you need some assistance, 312-217-3863. 

I spoke to John (didn't get his last name)

Also, it's in their terms and conditions.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/help-center/terms-and-conditions.html#firearm-shipments

 

image.thumb.png.31c2f0711f4652fe400c454add6d3b90.png

 

 

 

Magazine restrictions

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Ammunition

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image.png.2e7eb22383a4969b41d68db54184ec7f.png

 

 

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Let's ignore that their magazine policy is wrong for second, they're not just shipping to residents of any of those cities, towns, counties, etc they're shipping to an FFL. Shipping to an FFL in any of those places isn't any sort of violation. It's just a bad policy. I'm still salty that they palmed my magazine from my pistol. I know that went in somebodies backpack when nobody was looking.

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On 2/15/2022 at 5:03 PM, solareclipse2 said:

Let's ignore that their magazine policy is wrong for second, they're not just shipping to residents of any of those cities, towns, counties, etc they're shipping to an FFL. Shipping to an FFL in any of those places isn't any sort of violation. It's just a bad policy. I'm still salty that they palmed my magazine from my pistol. I know that went in somebodies backpack when nobody was looking.

Unfortunately, I had a customer that I was going to do a transfer for and this is the email they received from PSA Compliance:

 

Quote

From: Compliance <compliance@palmettostatearmory.com>
Date: Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 6:54 AM
Subject: Order # 12110236211
To:*****************


Hello! 


Our company policy prohibits us from shipping semi-automatic rifles, AR/AK style firearms; semi-automatic shotguns with one of more of the following: only a pistol grip without a stock attached, a grip for the non-trigger hand, a folding/telescoping/thumbhole stock, a fixed magazine exceeding 5 rounds, the ability to accept a detachable magazine, a revolving cylinder, or any shotgun (not solely semi-auto) with a fixed magazine exceeding 5 rounds; or semi-automatic pistols with two or more of the following: a grip for the non-trigger hand, a folding/telescoping/thumbhole stock, barrel shroud, muzzle brake/compensator, or the ability to accept a detachable magazine outside of the pistol grip. 

 

This policy applies residents of Cook County or FFL located within Cook County; to reiterate, this includes both the customer’s billing address zip code and the zip code of the address of the FFL selected for the transfer. If the billing address and/or shipping address on your order is a Cook County address, your order will be cancelled in 5 business days if not resolved beforehand. You will need to provide proof of residency via driver’s license or a bill. 


***Since both of the above apply to you, you will need to both submit evidence that you are not a Cook County resident, and select another FFL- one not located in Cook County. 

  

If you are a Law Enforcement Officer with the intent to use this weapon in the line of duty, please provide a copy of your credentials and a letter on department letterhead signed by your department's superior officer stating that the firearm will be used for duty purposes. PSA only recognizes City Police Officers, County Sheriff Deputies, and State Police (including Highway Patrol) as L.E.O’s. 

  

If you are a Federal Firearms License holder, your web order will still be cancelled but you can continue your purchase through our Dealer Sales program. Please call John or Breadon in our Dealer Sales Department at 803-724-6655 or email dealer.sales@palmettostatearmory.com for more detailed information.   ***Please do not contact dealer sales unless you are an FFL holder*** 

   

We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you. 

  

Best regards,
Compliance Department
Palmetto State Armory
P: 803-724-6950
F: 803-788-7979 

 

 

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On 2/15/2022 at 8:51 PM, lurker501 said:

Unfortunately, I had a customer that I was going to do a transfer for and this is the email they received from PSA Compliance:

 

 

 

Usually being both wrong and stupid is a bad combination but somehow PSA makes it work for them probably because of the pure volume they do. 

 

On 2/15/2022 at 10:27 PM, davel501 said:

Might be a blessing. PSA is not well regarded. Chad at School of the American Rifle has had some crazy autopsies on them. 

 

If your customer wants something high quality but still affordable have them look at https://sonsoflibertygw.com. They'd still want to call first to see if they'll ship it. 

 

What "autopsies" did he do? Do you have links? 

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On 2/15/2022 at 10:27 PM, davel501 said:

Might be a blessing. PSA is not well regarded. Chad at School of the American Rifle has had some crazy autopsies on them. 

 

If your customer wants something high quality but still affordable have them look at https://sonsoflibertygw.com. They'd still want to call first to see if they'll ship it. 

I have to say SOLGW should not even be put in the same sentence as Palmetto. SOLGW is very good $hit, approved for many LE departments. PSA leads the budget build groups, but because they are cheap, they sell...

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On 2/17/2022 at 4:17 PM, ealcala31 said:

I have to say SOLGW should not even be put in the same sentence as Palmetto. SOLGW is very good $hit, approved for many LE departments. PSA leads the budget build groups, but because they are cheap, they sell...

 

There are LEs carrying PSAs as duty weapons. LE use is not a good metric since cost is the primary driver. The vast majority of LE firearms are shot once per year, using the minimum number of rounds needed to qualify. I know a couple of LE fire instructors that want to change to qualifying 2x per year to get their folks to clean their guns more. It's crazy that the lawmakers give so much in the way of extra rights to LEOs (current and former) like they are firearms experts. What about the rest of us that actually go to the range?

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On 2/17/2022 at 4:52 PM, davel501 said:

 

There are LEs carrying PSAs as duty weapons. LE use is not a good metric since cost is the primary driver. The vast majority of LE firearms are shot once per year, using the minimum number of rounds needed to qualify. I know a couple of LE fire instructors that want to change to qualifying 2x per year to get their folks to clean their guns more. It's crazy that the lawmakers give so much in the way of extra rights to LEOs (current and former) like they are firearms experts. What about the rest of us that actually go to the range?

I disagree, Most LE Approved firearms are typically reliable firearms that have been tested under many adverse conditions. I have a few lists from CPD and a few other departments and they had over a dozen or so firearms from the most budget to Daniel Defense. I have personally sold & referred a few AR15 duty weapons to CPD and they gave me a list of which ones they could purchase. As far as training, that has nothing to do with the make of the firearm but everything to do with the laziness of the LEO. I took a Sig P-Series class and the Sig instructor told us of a few P226s that were jamming in a few different departments. Why, owned for 10+ years and only shot during qualifications, never cleaned or lubed. He couldn't believe that an LEO would take any weapon for duty under those negligent conditions. I have a customer who is one of Chicago's firearm instructors, we talked about this and he admitted that CPD shoots terrible. Many fail the 1st time around, go practice, and barely pass the 2nd time around. He said most of them are quite alright with that. I can tell you I wouldn't be...

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CPD is one department. PSA and Springfield don't go to the trouble of having LE and IOPs for nothing. There are whole departments running Saints. I've yet to see a Saint that was even properly staked. 

 

Even milspec, as much as that is held up as a standard, is the minimum that the military will take delivery of. There are companies selling the rifles the military won't take into the civilian market for more than they charge the military. 

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On 2/17/2022 at 10:49 PM, davel501 said:

CPD is one department. PSA and Springfield don't go to the trouble of having LE and IOPs for nothing. There are whole departments running Saints. I've yet to see a Saint that was even properly staked. 

 

Even milspec, as much as that is held up as a standard, is the minimum that the military will take delivery of. There are companies selling the rifles the military won't take into the civilian market for more than they charge the military. 

Last time I will hijack your OP Ricardo, but quality of ARs and other products should start another thread. You are correct CPD is one dept, but most decently ran departments do have standards, I should hope most firearm purchasers to have standards as well. In 3yrs of business, I realized people want new firearms CHEAP, I would rather have a quality used firearm instead. That is just me! But more to your mil-spec viewpoint, I have the same viewpoint as mil-spec, whatever. I listened to a podcast with a Brownell's rep and recently Brownell's got some parts, I believe magazines, mil-spec approved. So the guy doing the interview was like, mil-spec is mil-spec. The Brownell's rep said they had to do a lot of testing and 1,000's of rounds fired to get his mags mil-spec approved. That true mil-spec is actually a good quality product. So, when many people are building using mil-spec parts they are actually looking for mil-spec dimensions, not actual mil-spec parts. When it comes to; LPKs, buffer tubes, trigger packs, barrels, etc., people are buying the cheapest mil-spec dimensions that they could be, not the cheapest mil-spec approved parts. Then, someone would be made fun of because their build costs more than $400.    

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