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New twist on “No Guns” posting


vito
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This is not an Illinois issue, but I thought some might find this of interest. If you venture North to Milwaukee, and decide to go to Mayfair Mall (which is the pre-eminent mall for that city), you will see an interesting posting. In addition to saying that firearms are not permitted, the sign warns that the mall uses firearm detecting dogs. Of course, “no guns” signs in Wisconsin do not have the force of law as they do in Illinois, but a concealed carrier who might otherwise avoid detection might well get “outed” by one of those trained dogs.

 

FWIW, I had no problems at the mall and saw no sign of any of these “firearm detecting dogs”, but found myself thinking that I hope we do not see the same tactic introduced here in Illinois.

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After watching way too many law enforcement shows which show the dogs being used AFTER there is reason to suspect someone.

How would one go about having dogs just roam the mall looking for someone whom they otherwise wouldn’t care about?

Dogs as metal detectors? Bomb dogs for the gun powder? Maybe a dog who sniffs out Hoppes 9 oil?

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I have no idea if the "threat" of "firearm detecting dogs" is just an empty threat or something real, but if real, I assume that security staff would just be walking around the mall with the dog, waiting for it to react to the smell it is trained for. The security staff are not police officers, and I have no idea what real authority they have to detain, let alone search someone that such a dog would identify. Maybe they just tell the person to leave the mall immediately, and if the person refuses they call the local PD. This mall, which is seen as a "high end" mall with a Nordstrom and other quality stores, had some criminal issues not long ago that I read about, and this new policy and/or signage might be the mall's management idea on reassuring customers that visiting the mall is a safe experience. In any case, I doubt that this sign will change my visits to this mall as the mall is the favorite of my wife, and I would rather patronize a mall that does not respect my 2nd Amendment rights than have my wife go there by herself (and of course, unarmed).

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"Firearm Detecting Dogs".....yeah, right.

 

Perhaps IF you cleaned and lubed your 1911 with bacon grease......

 

One of the easiest and quickest ways to train a 'drug' dog to alert on an odor, is to get the dog addicted to the substance that makes that odor. Every 'drug' dog up until maybe the late 1990's to the early 2010's was an addict to weed, heroin, meth, etc.

 

Cruel, but efficient.

 

Now what, someone has addicted a beagle to Hoppe's #9?

Edited by Kaeghl
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Even with the bomb sniffing K9's, what would it matter if they were sniffing you out? You're in Wisconsin. They have their own set of laws with their own silly signage. Worrying about an Illinois compliant sign in a state that isn't Illinois, is like worrying about the weather back home. It doesn't affect you where you are. Carry on. If I were there, carrying, getting sniffed, tell them to MYOFB.

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Of course, “no guns” signs in Wisconsin do not have the force of law as they do in Illinois

They most certainly DO have force of law on no gun signs in Wisconsin. Subject to fines and a class B forfeiture.

 

Illinois signage is worth spit in Wisconsin. Now Wisconsin signage in Wisconsin would be a different story.

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"Firearm Detecting Dogs".....yeah, right.

 

Perhaps IF you cleaned and lubed your 1911 with bacon grease......

 

One of the easiest and quickest ways to train a 'drug' dog to alert on an odor, is to get the dog addicted to the substance that makes that odor. Every 'drug' dog up until maybe the late 1990's to the early 2010's was an addict to weed, heroin, meth, etc.

 

Cruel, but efficient.

 

Now what, someone has addicted a beagle to Hoppe's #9?

 

Either you are being facetious or you are ignorant on the way that dogs are trained to alert to odors.

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https://www.wisn.com/article/mayfair-mall-to-add-gun-sniffing-dogs-for-additional-security/34851978

 

 

"Firearms and weapons are strictly prohibited within Mayfair and the launch of the VWK9 (Vapor Wake Public Safety Canine Detection Program) program allows trained security professionals to identify anyone in violation of this important policy," senior general manager of Mayfair Mall Chris Jaeger said.

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https://www.fox6now.com/news/k-9s-will-detect-firearms-at-mayfair-mall

 

 

"If you walk through the mall, a dog team will screen you and you will never even realize it occurred because the dog won’t make physical contact with you, and will basically sniff the air that is coming off your body after you’ve passed," said Pearce. "The dogs have a sense of smell that’s much keener than a human being, 400 times what a human being is capable of smelling on certain substances."

Officials with Mayfair said this will help identify anyone in violation of the mall's strict "no weapons" policy.
"When these dogs approach you, you’re not in trouble," said Pearce. "They just want to find out if you have a firearm on you. And if you’re licensed to carry, that’s not an issue, but you’re not going to be able to stay in the mall."
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If I recall correctly, there was a shooting incident between two groups of young black men at the mall. I think mall officials think that by targeting guns they can make the mall safer, or more importantly, get their liberal customers to think that they are safer due to this "crackdown" on firearms.

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"Firearm Detecting Dogs".....yeah, right.

 

Perhaps IF you cleaned and lubed your 1911 with bacon grease......

 

One of the easiest and quickest ways to train a 'drug' dog to alert on an odor, is to get the dog addicted to the substance that makes that odor. Every 'drug' dog up until maybe the late 1990's to the early 2010's was an addict to weed, heroin, meth, etc.

 

Cruel, but efficient.

 

Now what, someone has addicted a beagle to Hoppe's #9?

 

Either you are being facetious or you are ignorant on the way that dogs are trained to alert to odors.

 

 

Kinda facetious about the Hoppe's #9 and bacon grease.

 

But yes, quite a few 'drug' dogs were addicted to the various odors of the narcotics they were 'trained' for. It was the quickest and easiest way to get a dog to alert on a drug, even though cruel and almost unethical. I didn't way it was the best, or only way to train a dog, just that it was the fastest way to get a dog to work.

 

The turnover in dogs could be fierce over time. You could never tell when a dog was done with the industry, or 'lost it's nose'.

 

Hopefully, it's different now. But then I have no idea of the process these days, just what it was in the olden days.

 

My original post should have specified more clearly that my exposure to the industry was from decades ago.

 

The owner of the dog service that 'screened' the Sears Tower in Chicago for just one of his contracts (for explosives) did take me on a tour of his vaults and bunkers. I wasn't allowed past the cage doors to the drug vaults. The paperwork would have been ridiculous, let alone the possibility of losing his multiple licenses, apparently. The people that keep track of those things in those places are serious. Very very serious.

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Just to clarify dogs can be trained to alert on any odor. So yes, they can be trained to alert to guns (gunpowder or even Hoppe's #9).

 

A dog's reward for finding/alerting to the odor is a toy, food or praise. NOT addiction to the drug. Have been in the industry for several decades and this was the procedure even in the "olden days".

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Years ago when attending SIUC we had the K9 team come to our dorm for a presentation. Maybe even a warning. Well at one point they asked for a volunteer to come take a sample of contraband they'd previously found in a search elsewhere. They suggested the volunteer hide it on their person as best as possible. It was in his shoe and the dog never hit on it. As much as I love the old episodes of cops during the K9 episodes particularly when the K9 is utilized to its potential, I lost faith after that display.

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So the dog is probably trained to sniff on gun powder. And what happens if the dog alerts on me when not carrying because I have powder residue on my clothes and I refuse a search?

After watching way too many law enforcement shows which show the dogs being used AFTER there is reason to suspect someone.

How would one go about having dogs just roam the mall looking for someone whom they otherwise wouldn’t care about?

Dogs as metal detectors? Bomb dogs for the gun powder? Maybe a dog who sniffs out Hoppes 9 oil?

:devil: *snicker - snicker* And what if somebody dumps some gunpowder from a .22 Short into their pocket or rub it into their clothing so there is almost nothing visible (except a "dirt" stain) and see how such dogs and handlers react? Make so many "false positive" results that they end the program?

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So the dog is probably trained to sniff on gun powder. And what happens if the dog alerts on me when not carrying because I have powder residue on my clothes and I refuse a search?

After watching way too many law enforcement shows which show the dogs being used AFTER there is reason to suspect someone.

How would one go about having dogs just roam the mall looking for someone whom they otherwise wouldn’t care about?

Dogs as metal detectors? Bomb dogs for the gun powder? Maybe a dog who sniffs out Hoppes 9 oil?

:devil: *snicker - snicker* And what if somebody dumps some gunpowder from a .22 Short into their pocket or rub it into their clothing so there is almost nothing visible (except a "dirt" stain) and see how such dogs and handlers react? Make so many "false positive" results that they end the program?

 

I was just thinking the same thing, don’t forget the oil’s!

 

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No idea if the signs in Wisconsin have the force of law. Some deputy fife mall comes up and says “mah dog has alerted on you”? Big deal. All the dude can do is ask you to leave. And you’ll be trespassed when the real cops get there if you stick around. Of corse if the mall cop says, “I have to search you” and you let him, he’ll have something to say when the real cops get there. You tell him to pound sand better, dint shop there and tell the store owners why via a nicely written email with scans of receipts from their competition.

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I resent their implication that an armed person is a criminal. I’m waiting to see a retail posting which says that legally carried firearms are welcome, but illegally carried firearms are prohibited. No one posts in that manner since they see the obvious foolishness in prohibiting something that is already illegal. But that recognition does not seem to extend to understanding that armed “good guys” make for a safer, not more dangerous environment.

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The sign might just be a scare tactic. I took a home defense course that suggested you put signs in your yard saying you had a security system and beware of dog signs on your door even if you don't have either. If a criminal thinks you have an alarm system they may look elsewhere.

This sign may be the same psychological tactic.

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