Jump to content

ATF raids polymer DIY ghost guns maker


Plinkermostly
 Share

Recommended Posts

Wall Street Journal:

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/ghost-gun-company-raided-by-federal-agents-11607670296

 

 

"Federal agents on Thursday raided one of the nation’s largest manufacturers of ghost-gun parts, a sign that federal law enforcement is cracking down on kits that allow people to make weapons at home.

The raid target, Nevada-based Polymer80, is suspected of illegally manufacturing and distributing firearms, failing to pay taxes, shipping guns across state lines and failing to conduct background investigations, according to an application for a search warrant unsealed Thursday after the raid took place."

Edited by Plinkermostly
Link to comment
Share on other sites

All of the parts in their kit form are legal to own so why is the kit illegal? I think they are reaching on this.

 

Yeah it sure appears they are grasping here, possibly entrapment?

 

 

 

The ATF previously gave Polymer80 permission to sell unfinished receivers. But the Buy Build Shoot Kits, which are advertised as having “all the necessary components to build a complete...pistol” weren’t submitted to the agency for approval, according to the application for the search warrant. These kits can be “assembled into fully functional firearms in a matter of minutes,” the warrant application says.

 

 

 

The kit, which Polymer80 sells online, meets the definition of a firearm, ATF investigators determined according to the warrant application.

 

If they gave permission to sell the unfinished receiver as an unregulated part because it couldn't be "readily be converted" how is selling a kit of other unregulated parts illegal? They seam to be leaning very heavily on the "readily be converted" clause when they say it meets the definition, possibly because their kit contained a jig? Seems like a pretty big leap.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link is a paywall.

 

Click

By Zusha Elinson

Updated Dec. 11, 2020 7:40 am ET
Federal agents on Thursday raided one of the nation’s largest manufacturers of ghost-gun parts, a sign that federal law enforcement is cracking down on kits that allow people to make weapons at home.
The raid target, Nevada-based Polymer80, is suspected of illegally manufacturing and distributing firearms, failing to pay taxes, shipping guns across state lines and failing to conduct background investigations, according to an application for a search warrant unsealed Thursday after the raid took place.
The probe focuses on Polymer80’s “Buy Build Shoot Kit,” which includes the parts to build a “ghost” handgun. The kit, which Polymer80 sells online, meets the definition of a firearm, ATF investigators determined according to the warrant application. That means it would have to be stamped with a serial number and couldn’t be sold to consumers who haven’t first passed a background check.
Polymer80 chief executive David Borges didn’t return phone calls or texts seeking comment Thursday evening.
Agents seized records and other evidence in Thursday’s raid in Dayton, close to Carson City, a law-enforcement official with knowledge of the investigation said. No Polymer80 employees were arrested and no charges have been filed.
The raid by agents with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives comes after ghost guns have been used more frequently in high-profile attacks. In September, two Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department deputies were shot while sitting in their patrol vehicle by a man using a handgun built from Polymer80 parts, according to the documents. Last year, a 16-year-old killed two fellow students and wounded three others at Saugus High School in Southern California with a homemade handgun.
Thursday’s raid is the most significant action against a ghost-gun company to date, according to the law-enforcement officials, and suggests the federal government is scrutinizing the growing industry.
Homemade ghost guns have grown in popularity in recent years and can’t be traced in criminal investigations because they lack serial numbers. Law-enforcement officials say they appeal to people who can’t pass background checks.
When people buy fully made guns from dealers, the weapons have serial numbers and purchasers must go through a background check.
Approximately 10,000 ghost guns were recovered by law e nforcement in 2019, according to the warrant application. As part of the investigation, the ATF identified multiple Polymer80 customers who were prohibited from buying guns because of prior criminal convictions.
The starting point for building a ghost gun is an “unfinished receiver,” a metal or polymer piece that houses the firing mechanism. It can be purchased without a background check, because the ATF doesn’t classify the part as a firearm. Buyers can finish the receiver with a drill press or a computerized metal-cutting machine and then add the remaining pieces to complete the gun.
The ATF previously gave Polymer80 permission to sell unfinished receivers. But the Buy Build Shoot Kits, which are advertised as having “all the necessary components to build a complete...pistol” weren’t submitted to the agency for approval, according to the application for the search warrant. These kits can be “assembled into fully functional firearms in a matter of minutes,” the warrant application says.

Edited by Flynn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Yeah it sure appears they are grasping here, possibly entrapment?

 

 

 

The ATF previously gave Polymer80 permission to sell unfinished receivers. But the Buy Build Shoot Kits, which are advertised as having “all the necessary components to build a complete...pistol” weren’t submitted to the agency for approval, according to the application for the search warrant. These kits can be “assembled into fully functional firearms in a matter of minutes,” the warrant application says.

 

 

 

The kit, which Polymer80 sells online, meets the definition of a firearm, ATF investigators determined according to the warrant application.

 

If they gave permission to sell the unfinished receiver as an unregulated part because it couldn't be "readily be converted" how is selling a kit of other unregulated parts illegal? They seam to be leaning very heavily on the "readily be converted" clause when they say it meets the definition, possibly because their kit contained a jig? Seems like a pretty big leap.

 

None of the other parts are possibly regulated under any current law.

 

This is more overreach by the ATF for sure... but unfortunately no one will put them in line, and once the transition happens it's even less likely to occur.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

And yet it's happening under Trump's watch.

Why isn't he doing something about it?

 

 

For all I am going to be lynched but these shouldn’t be available without doing a 4473, it gives people who shouldn’t have guns, guns! Then it reflects badly on the rest of us.

 

 

One statement Bad Trump

One statement Good Trump ( I think )

 

I believe the only other firearms related was Bump stocks during his administration

 

Lets see going forward what the Harris Administration has instore.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For all I am going to be lynched but these shouldn’t be available without doing a 4473, it gives people who shouldn’t have guns, guns! Then it reflects badly on the rest of us.

 

A 4473 for a piece of plastic not capable of anything more than being a doorstop or a paperweight? I dont own any 80% items, mostly because Im not handy enough to complete them with any reasonable assurance of safety. But I think the entire notion of 80% items is just fine.

 

The fact is that anyone with the basic skills to complete an 80% could just as easily create the same item from square stock with a little more time and effort. People make firearms out of common household items all the time. Maybe we need to mandate a 4473 for kitchen cutting boards, with a jig you could easily turn that into a lower.

 

This is overreach by a government office that has long been out of control. No president has ever truly been able to exert any power over them. They do what they want because they have a legal mandate to create their own rules.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For all I am going to be lynched but these shouldn’t be available without doing a 4473, it gives people who shouldn’t have guns, guns! Then it reflects badly on the rest of us.

 

No it gives people a pile of parts that are not guns, nor regulated, it does not give them a gun.

 

A legal line has to be drawn and adhered to, if the ATF declares something a non-gun aka a chunk of plastic or metal then there should be no 4473 required as it's not a firearm. That line has been coined '80%'

 

These kits are no more a gun under the black and white text and declaration of law than a few pieces of black pipe and fittings available at Menards are a gun, do we mandate people fill out a 4473 when buying pipe and fittings at Menards?

 

There has to be a clearly defined line, we can't allow the government to randomly declare hunks of plastic and/or metal non-guns one day then change the rules and declare them guns.

 

And people need to realize it's nearly 2021, there are desktop CNC machines that will allow you to mill out a complete fully functional firearm on your kitchen counter, do we mandate anyone that buys a CNC machine and block of aluminum fill out a 4473 when they purchase it? How about people that buy a 3D printer, do they need to fill out a 4473, because the truth is that with a few hundred dollar 3D printer you could print yourself a fully functional AR lower before the next morning, a Glock frame is a little more work but people are even 3D printing them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think drilling four holes and a dremel for 5 minutes is a little more than making something from scratch.

 

How about if it takes 10 or 15 mintues? Where is the line drawn, when it takes 25 minutes?

 

How about loading a 3D file and pressing the print button on a 3D printer and waking up to a brand new AR15 lower a few hours later after doing the hard job of presssing the print button?

 

How about going to the hardware store and getting a few sections of pipe and pipe fittings and screwing them together.

 

An honest question where do you propose the line be drawn on what requires a 4473? Should buying a 3D printer require a 4473 to purchase? How about CNC machines? How about plumbing pipe? Billet aluminum? Flat aluminum and screws?

Edited by Flynn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why should a 4473 be required for anything? or a FOID card?

 

I understand the whole 'but it's the law!' argument but rather than changing a law to require a 4473 for an 80% receiver that I have a 40% chance of irreparably damaging while attempting to complete, perhaps the 4473 should be abolished altogether. How about a system that confirms you're a citizen with no history of violent crime being enough? If I don't have to identify who I voted for why do I have to identify which guns I've purchased. Personally I think a lot of voters commit crimes just based on who (or which party) they vote for. But, that's just me...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand the whole 'but it's the law!' argument but rather than changing a law to require a 4473 for an 80% receiver

 

The bigger problem is that once you go down that rabbit hole where does it stop? If they require a 4473 for a so called 80% then what if the manufacture adds one more required step to complete making it a so called 75%? Back to non-gun status?

 

The real problem is the 'readily convertible' wording n the law, it needs to be removed from the law entirely as it's clearly ambigious as proven time and time again when the ATF moves the line on a whim and thus this history of redefining the term on a whim should invalidate the law for ambiguity and constitutional 5th and 14th infringements.

 

Again, no one knows what 'readily convertible' actually means and thus the law should be invalidated and unconstitutional, why it hasn't been already shows our courts have no spine, as the ATF has proven time and time again the defintion is not actually static and clearly defined, instead it's whatever they want to define it as any any moment even if they previously defined it as something else.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagueness_doctrine#:~:text=Unconstitutional%20vagueness%20is%20a%20concept,to%20the%20United%20States%20Constitution.

Edited by Flynn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think drilling four holes and a dremel for 5 minutes is a little more than making something from scratch.

 

I am not ok with giving people a way circumvent the law when they are otherwise excluded from ownership. The fight to keep guns available it difficult enough without this!

 

Why should law abiding 2A supporters be vilified when the lowlifes of the world won't follow the law for any reason? Do you really think that making these parts go through an FFL would make any difference when the thugs get firearms in any back alley , in any town.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

For all I am going to be lynched but these shouldn’t be available without doing a 4473, it gives people who shouldn’t have guns, guns! Then it reflects badly on the rest of us.

My right to keep and bear arms certainly extends to making my own without government infringement.

 

 

^ this ***

 

Yes. It's perfectly legal to make your own firearms. If someone is prohibited from owning firearms, then they should be deal with if they break the law.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, but there's no shadow government, oh no...

 

 

Nope, none at all, I'm sure it's all coincidence andTrump's fault this is happening now!

 

November 10th, 2020, during an ATF conference call, Acting Director Regina Lombardo told those in attendance that the anti-gun Biden transition team has reached out to the ATF to get the agency’s “top priorities”.
AmmoLand News' anonymous source said Lombardo told those on the call that her priorities would be pistol braces and 80% lower receivers.

 

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/11/atf-working-biden-transition-team-ban-pistol-braces/#axzz6dW6tSv71

 

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/confirmed-atf-brass-recommended-targeting-braces-80-lowers-under-a-biden-administration/

 

Amazing how the dots are ligning up, isn't it?

Edited by Flynn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

November 10th, 2020, during an ATF conference call, Acting Director Regina Lombardo told those in attendance that the anti-gun Biden transition team has reached out to the ATF to get the agencys top priorities.

 

AmmoLand News' anonymous source said Lombardo told those on the call that her priorities would be pistol braces and 80% lower receivers.

 

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/11/atf-working-biden-transition-team-ban-pistol-braces/#axzz6dW6tSv71

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/confirmed-atf-brass-recommended-targeting-braces-80-lowers-under-a-biden-administration/

 

Amazing how the dots are ligning up, isn't it?

 

I suspect leading up to the next election we will be "educated" about how the Biden Administration was simply continuing Trump Administration's procedures, that neither Biden nor Harris are really as anti-gun as any other human being in the history of the United States.

 

Hopefully one of us can remember to find your post when that time comes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

November 10th, 2020, during an ATF conference call, Acting Director Regina Lombardo told those in attendance that the anti-gun Biden transition team has reached out to the ATF to get the agencys top priorities.

 

AmmoLand News' anonymous source said Lombardo told those on the call that her priorities would be pistol braces and 80% lower receivers.

 

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/11/atf-working-biden-transition-team-ban-pistol-braces/#axzz6dW6tSv71

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/confirmed-atf-brass-recommended-targeting-braces-80-lowers-under-a-biden-administration/

 

Amazing how the dots are ligning up, isn't it?

 

I suspect leading up to the next election we will be "educated" about how the Biden Administration was simply continuing Trump Administration's procedures, that neither Biden nor Harris are really as anti-gun as any other human being in the history of the United States.

 

Hopefully one of us can remember to find your post when that time comes.

 

I know just the guy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And the ATF has wasted no time following up on buyers info. They threatened to come back with a warrant if the owner didnt comply and turn over the kit...

 

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/12/11/polymer80-kits/

 

Fantastic. Now the ATF is going around to all their customers and threatening them.

This is the new America.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...