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FYI - SBR transfer time


Benbow

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@interestedbystander-

 

The reason i feel so strongly about circus advice (we havent met yet) is because i am an immigrant and when i decided to get into firearms i relied on this forum to steer me in the right direction and keep me on the right side of the law. Many members on here have helped me greatly and i know i am not the only one so when i see someone doing this it boils me as i would have believed him probably been fresh to the country.

 

I got the pickup too :)

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It's unfortunate that questions, that a statement about waiting for more information, can be met with such hostility. It diminishes the message and works against what might have been an interesting discussion.

Hostility?

 

To get an FFL for the intention of circumventing the law isn't hostile its reckless. Right now like it or not there is plenty NFA items we would all love. By advising people to do something like "make your own ammo" so you can gain a suppressor, leaving out the facts that you also should have liability insurance, registering an LLC, Insure home for business use, declare to your bank about you are doing this since many institutions have stipulations on profiting from firearms, going to local PD for a demo letter, cameras all over your property!

 

so to do this whole thing without doing the above to constitute a legitimate business is fraud!

 

Imagine the headlines, Local FFL and Attorney from illinois carry advises members to circumvent the law for nfa items!

 

 

Reckless-(of a person or their actions) without thinking or caring about the consequences of an action.

 

In civil litigation, allegations of fraud might be based on a misrepresentation of fact that was either intentional or negligent. For a statement to be an intentional misrepresentation, the person who made it must either have known the statement was false or been reckless as to its truth.

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It's unfortunate that questions, that a statement about waiting for more information, can be met with such hostility. It diminishes the message and works against what might have been an interesting discussion.

Hostility?

 

To get an FFL for the intention of circumventing the law isn't hostile its reckless. Right now like it or not there is plenty NFA items we would all love. By advising people to do something like "make your own ammo" so you can gain a suppressor, leaving out the facts that you also should have liability insurance, registering an LLC, Insure home for business use, declare to your bank about you are doing this since many institutions have stipulations on profiting from firearms, going to local PD for a demo letter, cameras all over your property!

 

so to do this whole thing without doing the above to constitute a legitimate business is fraud!

 

Imagine the headlines, Local FFL and Attorney from illinois carry advises members to circumvent the law for nfa items!

 

 

Reckless-(of a person or their actions) without thinking or caring about the consequences of an action.

 

In civil litigation, allegations of fraud might be based on a misrepresentation of fact that was either intentional or negligent. For a statement to be an intentional misrepresentation, the person who made it must either have known the statement was false or been reckless as to its truth.

 

Welcome to America where we tend to stretch the laws without calling fraud. If there is a gray area in the interpretation of a law I personally use the gray area in my favor.

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ITAR does not apply to handloaders, only machine powered loading operations. ITAR also does not apply to persons that are only assembling parts. There are lots of other exceptions to it as well, which, thanks to regualtory reform from trump two years ago took the sting out of it for FFLs not commercially producing machineguns. I'm oversimplifying, but it basically does not apply the way it did two years ago, and does not apply to handloaders.

 

Also, I'm not saying that a person can buy silencers in IL for any willy nilly reason. I'm saying (1) a good chunk of handloaders technically need an 06 FFL, (2) an 06 FFL allows the holders, under Illinois law, to possess suppressors for business purposes, like what Winchester does, for testing ammo. I can think of other legitimate business purposes for an 06 to have a suppressor. If you don't want to test your handloaded ammo for its suppressor friendly capabilities, then don't. If others want to, let them. heck, until 3 years ago, in Arkansas it was legal to "possess" but not use a supressor, and 10000 people bought the things. Now they are completely legal.

 

Do what you want.

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It's unfortunate that questions, that a statement about waiting for more information, can be met with such hostility. It diminishes the message and works against what might have been an interesting discussion.

Hostility?

 

To get an FFL for the intention of circumventing the law isn't hostile its reckless. Right now like it or not there is plenty NFA items we would all love. By advising people to do something like "make your own ammo" so you can gain a suppressor, leaving out the facts that you also should have liability insurance, registering an LLC, Insure home for business use, declare to your bank about you are doing this since many institutions have stipulations on profiting from firearms, going to local PD for a demo letter, cameras all over your property!

 

so to do this whole thing without doing the above to constitute a legitimate business is fraud!

 

Imagine the headlines, Local FFL and Attorney from illinois carry advises members to circumvent the law for nfa items!

 

 

Reckless-(of a person or their actions) without thinking or caring about the consequences of an action.

 

In civil litigation, allegations of fraud might be based on a misrepresentation of fact that was either intentional or negligent. For a statement to be an intentional misrepresentation, the person who made it must either have known the statement was false or been reckless as to its truth.

 

Welcome to America where we tend to stretch the laws without calling fraud. If there is a gray area in the interpretation of a law I personally use the gray area in my favor.

 

Stretching the law and advocating people to do so are two different things also one is illegal!

 

You carry on your reckless ways and i will carry on my law abiding way of trying to protect my rights, not giving reason to lose them.

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Also, I'm not saying that a person can buy silencers in IL for any willy nilly reason. I'm saying (1) a good chunk of handloaders technically need an 06 FFL, (2) an 06 FFL allows the holders, under Illinois law, to possess suppressors for business purposes, like what Winchester does, for testing ammo.

 

 

Do you have a reference for 06 FFLs being allowed, under Illinois law, to possess suppressors for business purposes for testing ammo?

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720 ILCS 5/24-2(g-5) does grant a manufacturers exemption to the section of UUW relating to suppressors:

(g-5) Subsection 24-1(a)(6) does not apply to or affect
persons licensed under federal law to manufacture any device or
attachment of any kind designed, used, or intended for use in
silencing the report of any firearm, firearms, or ammunition
for those firearms equipped with those devices, and actually
engaged in the business of manufacturing those devices,
firearms, or ammunition, but only with respect to activities
that are within the lawful scope of that business, such as the
manufacture, transportation, or testing of those devices,
firearms, or ammunition. This exemption does not authorize the
general private possession of any device or attachment of any
kind designed, used, or intended for use in silencing the
report of any firearm, but only such possession and activities
as are within the lawful scope of a licensed manufacturing
business described in this subsection (g-5). During
transportation, these those devices shall be detached from any
weapon or not immediately accessible.



I don't know that I agree with Benbow's logic, but I do see where he's coming from.

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I like it, I have my 06 form filled out and looking for fingerprint cards to go with the app.

 

I do my own reloads and would like to share them but legally can't without the 06 FFL, plus with a can I could test loads without annoying the neighbors.

 

Actually you can share them a type 06 ffl is clearly defined by the ATF that it must be a business! That isn’t a couple of ammo boxes here and there that is a business actively manufacturing ammunition on a regular basis and profiting from it. You need liability insurance, you need a corporation/LLC, good luck with zoning for manufacturing in a neighbourhood that isn’t commercial. You also need ITAR at $2250, you will need tier 1. Just remember if you have no real ambition to make this a viable business then misrepresentation/fraud is a class 4 felony.

 

Who Must Register

 

All manufacturers, exporters, and brokers of defense articles, related technical data and defense services as defined on the United States Munitions List (Part 121 of the ITAR) (PDF, 7MB) are required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC). Registration is primarily a means to provide the U.S. Government with necessary information on who is involved in certain manufacturing, exporting and brokering activities. Receipt of ITAR §123.9 retransfer authorization does not confer any export rights or privileges, but is a precondition for the issuance of any license or other approval for export.

 

Here is a quote from another site to make this simple.

 

My client holds a manufacturing FFL but has never actually engaged in manufacturing since his retail business has happily continued to grow and take up all of his available time. However, the ATF agent told him that, as a manufacturer (active or not), he needed to register with the State Department and pay a yearly fee.

 

At the end of call, he had two basic questions:

 

“What requirement was the agent talking about?”

 

and

 

“Do I really need to register and pay this fee?”

 

Let’s start with the first question. The ATF agent was referring to the requirements of the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) which were promulgated to implement the provisions of the Arms Export Control Act of 1976 (AECA).

 

My client had searched on the internet and spoken with other manufacturing FFLs. Some had registered and paid the fee and some had not. Those who had not stated various beliefs such as “You don’t have to register if you make fewer than 50 items per year.”

 

That sounded reasonable to my client and it momentarily reassured him. But this is nothing more than an internet rumor. The regulation which governs the registration requirement makes it clear.

 

Any person who engages in the United States in the business of either manufacturing or exporting defense articles or furnishing defense services is required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls. For the purpose of this subchapter, engaging in the business of manufacturing or exporting defense articles or furnishing defense services requires only one occasion of manufacturing or exporting a defense article or furnishing a defense service. Manufacturers who do not engage in exporting must nevertheless register.

 

As for what constitutes ‘defense articles’, 22 USC 121 contains a complete listing under what is known as The United States Munitions List (USML). The very first item listed is “Nonautomatic and semi-automatic firearms to caliber .50 inclusive.” It goes on to include “Ammunition/ordnance for the articles [above].”

 

The short answer is that those licensed to manufacture firearms or ammunition are covered by ITAR and are required to register and pay the registration fee.

 

So … how bad is this fee? It’s pretty bad. If you are not engaged in exporting then you would be considered a ‘Tier 1’ registrant. Therefore you would only have to pay the lowest possible fee.

 

A set fee of $2,250 per year is required for new registrants or registrants for whom the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls has not reviewed, adjudicated or issued a response to any applications during a 12-month period ending 90 days prior to expiration of the current registration.

 

After I explained this to my client, he asked “Why haven’t I heard about this before? Why doesn’t the ATF tell us about it?” Well … they do … sort of.

 

In the ATF Importation Guidebook they note that “In order to engage in the business of exporting, manufacturing, or brokering items on the USMIL you must be registered with the Department of State which administers the export and manufacturing provisions of the AECA. Generally, persons holding a manufacturer’s FFL (Types 06, 07, and 10) must register as a manufacturer with the Department of State unless specifically exempted.”

 

Are there 06, 07, or 10 type FFLs who have not registered and have not been prosecuted? Yes there are. But they could be prosecuted at any time and the penalties are severe.

 

Is it stupid? Of course it is! But legally there is no question. If you are getting, or already have, an 06, 07, or 10 FFL then you need to consider the ITAR yearly registration fee as a cost of doing business and register.

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I like it, I have my 06 form filled out and looking for fingerprint cards to go with the app.

 

I do my own reloads and would like to share them but legally can't without the 06 FFL, plus with a can I could test loads without annoying the neighbors.

Actually you can share them a type 06 ffl is clearly defined by the ATF that it must be a business! That isn’t a couple of ammo boxes here and there that is a business actively manufacturing ammunition on a regular basis and profiting from it. You need liability insurance, you need a corporation/LLC, good luck with zoning for manufacturing in a neighbourhood that isn’t commercial. You also need ITAR at $2250, you will need tier 1. Just remember if you have no real ambition to make this a viable business then misrepresentation/fraud is a class 4 felony.

 

Who Must Register

 

All manufacturers, exporters, and brokers of defense articles, related technical data and defense services as defined on the United States Munitions List (Part 121 of the ITAR) (PDF, 7MB) are required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC). Registration is primarily a means to provide the U.S. Government with necessary information on who is involved in certain manufacturing, exporting and brokering activities. Receipt of ITAR §123.9 retransfer authorization does not confer any export rights or privileges, but is a precondition for the issuance of any license or other approval for export.

 

Here is a quote from another site to make this simple.

 

My client holds a manufacturing FFL but has never actually engaged in manufacturing since his retail business has happily continued to grow and take up all of his available time. However, the ATF agent told him that, as a manufacturer (active or not), he needed to register with the State Department and pay a yearly fee.

 

At the end of call, he had two basic questions:

 

“What requirement was the agent talking about?”

 

and

 

“Do I really need to register and pay this fee?”

 

Let’s start with the first question. The ATF agent was referring to the requirements of the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) which were promulgated to implement the provisions of the Arms Export Control Act of 1976 (AECA).

 

My client had searched on the internet and spoken with other manufacturing FFLs. Some had registered and paid the fee and some had not. Those who had not stated various beliefs such as “You don’t have to register if you make fewer than 50 items per year.”

 

That sounded reasonable to my client and it momentarily reassured him. But this is nothing more than an internet rumor. The regulation which governs the registration requirement makes it clear.

 

Any person who engages in the United States in the business of either manufacturing or exporting defense articles or furnishing defense services is required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls. For the purpose of this subchapter, engaging in the business of manufacturing or exporting defense articles or furnishing defense services requires only one occasion of manufacturing or exporting a defense article or furnishing a defense service. Manufacturers who do not engage in exporting must nevertheless register.

 

As for what constitutes ‘defense articles’, 22 USC 121 contains a complete listing under what is known as The United States Munitions List (USML). The very first item listed is “Nonautomatic and semi-automatic firearms to caliber .50 inclusive.” It goes on to include “Ammunition/ordnance for the articles [above].”

 

The short answer is that those licensed to manufacture firearms or ammunition are covered by ITAR and are required to register and pay the registration fee.

 

So … how bad is this fee? It’s pretty bad. If you are not engaged in exporting then you would be considered a ‘Tier 1’ registrant. Therefore you would only have to pay the lowest possible fee.

 

A set fee of $2,250 per year is required for new registrants or registrants for whom the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls has not reviewed, adjudicated or issued a response to any applications during a 12-month period ending 90 days prior to expiration of the current registration.

 

After I explained this to my client, he asked “Why haven’t I heard about this before? Why doesn’t the ATF tell us about it?” Well … they do … sort of.

 

In the ATF Importation Guidebook they note that “In order to engage in the business of exporting, manufacturing, or brokering items on the USMIL you must be registered with the Department of State which administers the export and manufacturing provisions of the AECA. Generally, persons holding a manufacturer’s FFL (Types 06, 07, and 10) must register as a manufacturer with the Department of State unless specifically exempted.”

 

Are there 06, 07, or 10 type FFLs who have not registered and have not been prosecuted? Yes there are. But they could be prosecuted at any time and the penalties are severe.

 

Is it stupid? Of course it is! But legally there is no question. If you are getting, or already have, an 06, 07, or 10 FFL then you need to consider the ITAR yearly registration fee as a cost of doing business and register.

 

Awful lot to words to try and change my mind. Thanks for caring about me but I'm a big boy and can manage without your guidance.

 

If you wanted to really be helpful you could find me a couple of fingerprint cards.

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ITAR does not apply to handloaders, only machine powered loading operations. ITAR also does not apply to persons that are only assembling parts. There are lots of other exceptions to it as well, which, thanks to regualtory reform from trump two years ago took the sting out of it for FFLs not commercially producing machineguns. I'm oversimplifying, but it basically does not apply the way it did two years ago, and does not apply to handloaders.

.

In short, the answer is probably not. Most jobs that FFL01 gunsmiths have been performing before this EO and without worrying about ITAR registration will not likely change. What activities that a FFL01 gunsmith performed properly before the EO that would now be restricted to only ITAR registrants are activities like threading muzzles to add suppressors.

 

Other than that, most normal gunsmithing activity will still be allowed without registering for ITAR.

 

HOBBYIST hand loaders will also not have to register and pay, contrary to some internet mumbling.

 

Key is hobbyist! By getting a 06ffl you remove that preemptive of HOBBYIST as you knowingly declared it as a business.

 

My original statement stands! Reckless!

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@Nrapistol, carry on I dont care if you lose your rights makes not one difference to me. My aim is not whether you do it or not, I just dont want someone losing their rights by thinking this is legal, I return the same respectful advice that I received when I started shooting.

 

I mean you put on a forum that you will violate the law which the ATF probably check so go right ahead...

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@Nrapistol, carry on I dont care if you lose your rights makes not one difference to me. My aim is not whether you do it or not, I just dont want someone losing their rights by thinking this is legal, I return the same respectful advice that I received when I started shooting.

 

I mean you put on a forum that you will violate the law which the ATF probably check so go right ahead...

YOU THINK I'm violating the law I DO NOT, that's why we have courts, free civics lesson,

 

Like I said: I have never been accused of being timid.

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@Nrapistol, carry on I dont care if you lose your rights makes not one difference to me. My aim is not whether you do it or not, I just dont want someone losing their rights by thinking this is legal, I return the same respectful advice that I received when I started shooting.

I mean you put on a forum that you will violate the law which the ATF probably check so go right ahead...

 

YOU THINK I'm violating the law I DO NOT, that's why we have courts, free civics lesson,

 

Like I said: I have never been accused of being timid.

The law is black and white!

 

Why do you keep mentioning timid? Am I supposed to care whether you are timid? Ill save you the hassle I dont! If Im supposed to be scared because you apparently are not timid, Im not!

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Chill out buddy, we just disagree on this

I am chilled but you keep saying the same thing as if its supposed to make me frightened and not repost the correct information after two of you are making up your own law.

 

I have studied human behaviour as part of one of my degrees and when someone keeps reiterating the same thing for intimidation and when you let them know you dont care they normally silence the crap. Nobody cares if you are timid or not all we care about is the legalities of this.

 

Better yet, why dont one of you two show me where it states you dont have to have itar and a business to go on this fantasy escapade.

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Chill out buddy, we just disagree on this

I am chilled but you keep saying the same thing as if its supposed to make me frightened and not repost the correct information after two of you are making up your own law.

 

I have studied human behaviour as part of one of my degrees and when someone keeps reiterating the same thing for intimidation and when you let them know you dont care they normally silence the crap. Nobody cares if you are timid or not all we care about is the legalities of this.

 

Better yet, why dont one of you two show me where it states you dont have to have itar and a business to go on this fantasy escapade.

 

I believe NRApistol's use of the word timid is meant to convey that he's willing to investigate the matter further, perhaps even pursue it with Benbow's or his own attorney's help. I don't see any intimidation.

 

You've made your feelings known. I suggest you let those who are inclined to, look into the possibilities and make their own decisions.

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I'm willing to jump in. I'll send in the FFL application and take it from there. I shoot against the local Sheriff and Conversation Officer, I will drag this by them and see what they think. I believe i meet all the requirements: I want to load ammo and give it to my students for classes. i want to test that ammo at home without too much noise. I can see 3 deer stands from my back yard so i'm just trying to be polite with the neighbors.

 

I'll post my progress or where to send bail money.

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720 ILCS 5/24-2(g-5) does grant a manufacturers exemption to the section of UUW relating to suppressors:(g-5) Subsection 24-1(a)(6) does not apply to or affect

persons licensed under federal law to manufacture any device or

attachment of any kind designed, used, or intended for use in

silencing the report of any firearm, firearms, or ammunition

for those firearms equipped with those devices, and actually

engaged in the business of manufacturing those devices,

firearms, or ammunition, but only with respect to activities

that are within the lawful scope of that business, such as the

manufacture, transportation, or testing of those devices,

firearms, or ammunition. This exemption does not authorize the

general private possession of any device or attachment of any

kind designed, used, or intended for use in silencing the

report of any firearm, but only such possession and activities

as are within the lawful scope of a licensed manufacturing

business described in this subsection (g-5). During

transportation, these those devices shall be detached from any

weapon or not immediately accessible.

I don't know that I agree with Benbow's logic, but I do see where he's coming from.

 

Thank you! Very interesting.

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You also need ITAR at $2250

 

“The regulation which governs the registration requirement makes it clear.

Any person who engages in the United States in the business of either manufacturing or exporting defense articles or furnishing defense services is required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls. For the purpose of this subchapter, engaging in the business of manufacturing or exporting defense articles or furnishing defense services requires only one occasion of manufacturing or exporting a defense article or furnishing a defense service. Manufacturers who do not engage in exporting must nevertheless register.

As for what constitutes ‘defense articles’, 22 USC 121 contains a complete listing under what is known as The United States Munitions List (USML). The very first item listed is “Nonautomatic and semi-automatic firearms to caliber .50 inclusive.” It goes on to include “Ammunition/ordnance for the articles [above].”

The short answer is that those licensed to manufacture firearms or ammunition are covered by ITAR and are required to register and pay the registration fee.

So … how bad is this fee? It’s pretty bad. If you are not engaged in exporting then you would be considered a ‘Tier 1’ registrant. Therefore you would only have to pay the lowest possible fee.

A set fee of $2,250 per year is required for new registrants or registrants for whom the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls has not reviewed, adjudicated or issued a response to any applications during a 12-month period ending 90 days prior to expiration of the current registration.

After I explained this to my client, he asked “Why haven’t I heard about this before? Why doesn’t the ATF tell us about it?” Well … they do … sort of.

In the ATF Importation Guidebook they note that “In order to engage in the business of exporting, manufacturing, or brokering items on the USMIL you must be registered with the Department of State which administers the export and manufacturing provisions of the AECA. Generally, persons holding a manufacturer’s FFL (Types 06, 07, and 10) must register as a manufacturer with the Department of State unless specifically exempted.”

Are there 06, 07, or 10 type FFLs who have not registered and have not been prosecuted? Yes there are. But they could be prosecuted at any time and the penalties are severe.

Is it stupid? Of course it is! But legally there is no question. If you are getting, or already have, an 06, 07, or 10 FFL then you need to consider the ITAR yearly registration fee as a cost of doing business and register.

 

I think some of the above information is outdated. Looking at the changes to ITAR effective 9 Mar 2020, weapons and ammunition commonly available on the civilian market have been removed. Regarding the manufacture of ammunition, as long as you are sticking with metal cased non explosive, non tracer, non flechette, non belted / linked smallarms ammunition you would be exempted from ITAR. At least that’s how I read it.

 

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/01/23/2020-00574/international-traffic-in-arms-regulations-us-munitions-list-categories-i-ii-and-iii

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If you want to get into the realm of technicality, if you reload ammo ONLY for yourself, no license is required. If you reload, at all, for someone else, like Uncle Bob, your buddy at the club, or the like, you technically need a Type 06 FFL, as (you may) owe federal excise tax (easily legally avoided) and you are actually technically manufacturing.

 

If I understand this correctly (and if Benbow is right), I can't give ammo to a parent if I have reloaded it.

Is that right?

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If I understand this correctly (and if Benbow is right), I can't give ammo to a parent if I have reloaded it.

Is that right?

 

 

Seems that if it’s not for profit, but also not for personal use, we have a gray area. From the ATF:

 

“Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer?

 

Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit.

 

No, if the person reloads only for personal use.”

 

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/person-who-reloads-ammunition-required-be-licensed-manufacturer

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To get an FFL for the intention of circumventing the law isn't hostile its reckless.

 

 

Following the law isn't circumventing the law.

 

Just because someone follows the law to reach an outcome that was unanticipated by the legislature... well, that's the legislatures problem.

 

Getting a CCL allows you to "circumvent" the law banning carry of firearms, doesn't it?

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