People v. Brown - FOID ruled unconstituional in IL District Court

[Flynn]

On 8/8/2023 at 4:51 PM, yurimodin said:

how long until we can charge these judges with felonies for 1983 violations......

 

LOL, I'm pretty sure judges are 100% immune to 1983 lawsuits, but there is some irony that you would have to ask the same judges allowing the cronies to violate your rights if you may have permission to sue them for violating your rights...

[lilguy]

Never.

Unless we can change the political dynamic in this state we are pushing a bolder up hill. We do not have the numbers to effect any appreciable pressure on our legislature/state courts.

We got carry from court threats, that the state feared. They don’t fear court action anymore. We keep hoping SCOTUS will swoop in and stop all this overreach. I don’t have the warm  fuzzys that many do. 

This state can keep introducing new controls from here to eternity waiting for the wobbly conservative majority to pass into history. 

We have a voter problem in this state.

 A majority of voters don’t give a rats ash about their 2nd amendment rights

and we can’t convince enough them they should. It just about that simple, and hard to change, IMHO.

 

[SiliconSorcerer]

On 8/8/2023 at 6:11 PM, lilguy said:

Never.

Unless we can change the political dynamic in this state we are pushing a bolder up hill. We do not have the numbers to effect any appreciable pressure on our legislature/state courts.

We got carry from court threats, that the state feared. They don’t fear court action anymore. We keep hoping SCOTUS will swoop in and stop all this overreach. I don’t have the warm  fuzzys that many do. 

This state can keep introducing new controls from here to eternity waiting for the wobbly conservative majority to pass into history. 

We have a voter problem in this state.

 A majority of voters don’t give a rats ash about their 2nd amendment rights

and we can’t convince enough them they should. It just about that simple, and hard to change, IMHO.

 

Maybe when Chicago turns into "Escape from New York" soon, people will start reconsidering. 

 

[RECarry]

On 8/9/2023 at 1:12 PM, SiliconSorcerer said:

Maybe when Chicago turns into "Escape from New York" soon, people will start reconsidering. 

 

 

I have tried pointing out to the leftist gun grabbers from North Shore suburbs that their well-stocked Sub Zero refrigerators will be prime targets for hungry looters should there be a mass exodus along Rt 41 from Chicago, Waukegan, etc. They can't imagine ever needing to defend themselves during conditions where laws won't matter.

[2A4Cook]

On 8/9/2023 at 2:19 PM, RECarry said:

 

I have tried pointing out to the leftist gun grabbers from North Shore suburbs that their well-stocked Sub Zero refrigerators will be prime targets for hungry looters should there be a mass exodus along Rt 41 from Chicago, Waukegan, etc. They can't imagine ever needing to defend themselves during conditions where laws won't matter.

Laws don't matter now ... unless they assess criminal penalties against law abiding citizens, rather than actual criminals.

[mab22]

On 8/9/2023 at 2:19 PM, RECarry said:

 

I have tried pointing out to the leftist gun grabbers from North Shore suburbs that their well-stocked Sub Zero refrigerators will be prime targets for hungry looters should there be a mass exodus along Rt 41 from Chicago, Waukegan, etc. They can't imagine ever needing to defend themselves during conditions where laws won't matter.

We will need to post signs stating “follow LSD to food!” (“ lake shore drive “ for those that don’t know)

[Bubbacs]

On 8/9/2023 at 10:26 PM, mab22 said:

We will need to post signs stating “follow LSD to food!” (“ lake shore drive “ for those that don’t know)

Maybe you mean  (JBPdSLSD) Jean Baptiste Pointe du Sable Lake Shore Drive

[SiliconSorcerer]

On 8/10/2023 at 2:16 AM, Bubbacs said:

Maybe you mean  (JBPdSLSD) Jean Baptiste Pointe du Sable Lake Shore Drive

Woke Drive. 

[mab22]

On 8/10/2023 at 2:16 AM, Bubbacs said:

Maybe you mean  (JBPdSLSD) Jean Baptiste Pointe du Sable Lake Shore Drive

Well 💩I learned something this morning, time to go back to bed.

[MrTriple]

On 8/8/2023 at 6:11 PM, lilguy said:

Never.

Unless we can change the political dynamic in this state we are pushing a bolder up hill. We do not have the numbers to effect any appreciable pressure on our legislature/state courts.

We got carry from court threats, that the state feared. They don’t fear court action anymore. We keep hoping SCOTUS will swoop in and stop all this overreach. I don’t have the warm  fuzzys that many do. 

This state can keep introducing new controls from here to eternity waiting for the wobbly conservative majority to pass into history. 

We have a voter problem in this state.

 A majority of voters don’t give a rats ash about their 2nd amendment rights

and we can’t convince enough them they should. It just about that simple, and hard to change, IMHO.

 

There's no need to doom. It makes no sense whatsoever in light of the extremely positive developments we're seeing on guns legally, politically, and culturally, and only serves to demoralize people.

 

Yes, we'll lose in state court, that's to be expected. Yes, the federal cases will take time. But Bruen fundamentally changed things, which is why the gun control movement has absolutely lost their minds. They wouldn't be acting the way they are if they genuinely thought they were winning.

Edited August 15, 2023 at 06:00 AM by MrTriple

[TargetCollector]

On 8/15/2023 at 12:59 AM, MrTriple said:

There's no need to doom. It makes no sense whatsoever in light of the extremely positive developments we're seeing on guns legally, politically, and culturally, and only serves to demoralize people.

 

Yes, we'll lose in state court, that's to be expected. Yes, the federal cases will take time. But Bruen fundamentally changed things, which is why the gun control movement has absolutely lost their minds. They wouldn't be acting the way they are if they genuinely thought they were winning.

 

I agree wholeheartedly that giving up on this state and the political process is demoralizing and a recipe for disaster.  Treating Bruen as a panacea the same way we thought Heller and McDonald would dramatically shift the landscape is equally undermining of our efforts.  People's views on gun rights are shifting across the country at the same time they're questioning the legitimacy of the current courts more than they have in decades.  If we continue to insist on the moral high-ground of "shall not be infringed" as the basis for all our efforts and continue to put on a "molon labe" exterior while publicly embracing a bunch of unrelated conservative agenda, we're going to permanently lose the ability to influence and include the recent and rapidly-growing liberal base of gun owners.  We can choose to realize and react to it, now, or we can wait until the courts either favor the other side, are undermined or are outright ignored, at which point, we'll have no ammunition left to save ourselves, both literally and figuratively.  

[yurimodin]

On 8/15/2023 at 9:55 AM, TargetCollector said:

 

I agree wholeheartedly that giving up on this state and the political process is demoralizing and a recipe for disaster.  Treating Bruen as a panacea the same way we thought Heller and McDonald would dramatically shift the landscape is equally undermining of our efforts.  People's views on gun rights are shifting across the country at the same time they're questioning the legitimacy of the current courts more than they have in decades.  If we continue to insist on the moral high-ground of "shall not be infringed" as the basis for all our efforts and continue to put on a "molon labe" exterior while publicly embracing a bunch of unrelated conservative agenda, we're going to permanently lose the ability to influence and include the recent and rapidly-growing liberal base of gun owners.  We can choose to realize and react to it, now, or we can wait until the courts either favor the other side, are undermined or are outright ignored, at which point, we'll have no ammunition left to save ourselves, both literally and figuratively.  

I think the big divide is fundamentally rooted in the left's historically ignorant trust in govt and the people in it to value their rights. Until the left can reckon with history and realize that our own government is made of flawed people who have the same ability to become despots just like the rest of the world then we will never win this argument in the long run. The duck hunting & self defense arguments are not enough. They need to understand that the US 2nd Amendment is the only tiny thread holding the world back from global oligarchical despotism.

[TargetCollector]

On 8/15/2023 at 12:14 PM, yurimodin said:

I think the big divide is fundamentally rooted in the left's historically ignorant trust in govt and the people in it to value their rights. Until the left can reckon with history and realize that our own government is made of flawed people who have the same ability to become despots just like the rest of the world then we will never win this argument in the long run. The duck hunting & self defense arguments are not enough. They need to understand that the US 2nd Amendment is the only tiny thread holding the world back from global oligarchical despotism.

 

That's exactly the kind of thing I mean.  "The Left" is not a singular block, nor is every liberal hopelessly devoted to the precise image of democratic party politicians.  There's a large and growing group of liberal individuals who have taken up gun ownership for precisely the same reasons many of us have: recognizing that government at best has limits in its ability to protect and at worst, needs the threat of an armed populace to keep it honest.  Those are people we fundamentally agree with who still won't support us as long as we're writing both them and their concerns off in exactly the way you seem to be doing.  

If we truly believe in fighting for these rights, then we'll do so, even if and when it means challenging our own self-image and identity as "gun owners" or "gun rights advocates" having to fit a particular mold.  Prove their prejudice against us wrong by dropping your own against them.  

Edited August 15, 2023 at 06:14 PM by TargetCollector

[RECarry]

^^^ Some individuals and groups still support the deep state's "protections", and may be arming themselves against the media-enhanced threat of "bigots" and "white supremacists".  The right has not done a very good job revealing the Deep State to be a fraud that feigns support to groups it expects to garner votes from.  I pray that that changes sooner than later.

Edited August 15, 2023 at 09:31 PM by RECarry

[2A4Cook]

On 8/15/2023 at 1:13 PM, TargetCollector said:

 

That's exactly the kind of thing I mean.  "The Left" is not a singular block, nor is every liberal hopelessly devoted to the precise image of democratic party politicians.  There's a large and growing group of liberal individuals who have taken up gun ownership for precisely the same reasons many of us have: recognizing that government at best has limits in its ability to protect and at worst, needs the threat of an armed populace to keep it honest.  Those are people we fundamentally agree with who still won't support us as long as we're writing both them and their concerns off in exactly the way you seem to be doing.  

If we truly believe in fighting for these rights, then we'll do so, even if and when it means challenging our own self-image and identity as "gun owners" or "gun rights advocates" having to fit a particular mold.  Prove their prejudice against us wrong by dropping your own against them.  

Because they will nonetheless continue to vote Democrat no matter what, and regard R's as Nazi's.  They may have different focuses (abortion, alphabet rights, free healthcare, etc.), but they vote as a block, both as an electorate and as elected bodies.  Every Democrat gunowner I've ever seen who's had the cajones to admit to supporting the 2A has always followed up with, "but I'm not a single issue voter." 

[TargetCollector]

On 8/15/2023 at 3:08 PM, 2A4Cook said:

Because they will nonetheless continue to vote Democrat no matter what, and regard R's as Nazi's.  They may have different focuses (abortion, alphabet rights, free healthcare, etc.), but they vote as a block, both as an electorate and as elected bodies.  Every Democrat gunowner I've ever seen who's had the cajones to admit to supporting the 2A has always followed up with, "but I'm not a single issue voter." 

 

They may very well, which is exactly why we need to separate our gun rights advocacy from general conservative political values and help folks like that start to shape the opinions and policies of their elected officials.  It means a lot more to this overwhelmingly democratic legislature to hear from overwhelmingly democratic voters that they disagree with a given path than to continue hearing from the same group of folks they regard as "gun nuts" over and over. 

In the meantime, I too have had a number of conversations with democrat gun owners and other liberals who are curious to probe my interest in gun rights.  They always mention at some point, "I can't believe you're able to intelligently discuss this and actually make me question some of my beliefs!  I expected this to be a foaming-at-the-mouth, conservative rant once I learned you own guns!"

[yurimodin]

On 8/15/2023 at 1:13 PM, TargetCollector said:

 

That's exactly the kind of thing I mean.  "The Left" is not a singular block, nor is every liberal hopelessly devoted to the precise image of democratic party politicians.  There's a large and growing group of liberal individuals who have taken up gun ownership for precisely the same reasons many of us have: recognizing that government at best has limits in its ability to protect and at worst, needs the threat of an armed populace to keep it honest.  Those are people we fundamentally agree with who still won't support us as long as we're writing both them and their concerns off in exactly the way you seem to be doing.  

If we truly believe in fighting for these rights, then we'll do so, even if and when it means challenging our own self-image and identity as "gun owners" or "gun rights advocates" having to fit a particular mold.  Prove their prejudice against us wrong by dropping your own against them.  

I really didn't think I was.

 

What irks me is when they go on and on that Trump is a fascist and they will all die in anti trans-gender concentration camps.......meanwhile they buy AR's and tell us we can't. 

 

What they refuse to admit is they are socialists first(gibs me dat) and gunowners second.

[MrTriple]

On 8/15/2023 at 9:55 AM, TargetCollector said:

 

I agree wholeheartedly that giving up on this state and the political process is demoralizing and a recipe for disaster.  Treating Bruen as a panacea the same way we thought Heller and McDonald would dramatically shift the landscape is equally undermining of our efforts.  People's views on gun rights are shifting across the country at the same time they're questioning the legitimacy of the current courts more than they have in decades.  If we continue to insist on the moral high-ground of "shall not be infringed" as the basis for all our efforts and continue to put on a "molon labe" exterior while publicly embracing a bunch of unrelated conservative agenda, we're going to permanently lose the ability to influence and include the recent and rapidly-growing liberal base of gun owners.  We can choose to realize and react to it, now, or we can wait until the courts either favor the other side, are undermined or are outright ignored, at which point, we'll have no ammunition left to save ourselves, both literally and figuratively.  

But that's the thing: Bruen is a panacea, and in a way that Heller and McDonald were not. The whole point of text/history/tradition is to make it effectively impossible for many forms of gun control to survive long-term.

 

But in the short term, you're unfortunately gonna have judges who either misapply Bruen or resist applying it properly. That's why you have SCOTUS and the appellate courts. And even they have various options for dealing with the problem that don't necessarily involve granting cert, such as GVR'ing cases (Bianchi for example).

 

Also, look at how aggressive SCOTUS is being with 2A cases. They could've just denied cert in cases like Bianchi; they didn't. They could've ignored us completely on Bevis; they didn't. That didn't happen post-Heller, now it is happening, and it's having an effect. We got a hearing on Barnett in under 50 days; that's unheard of for civil cases. You can thank SCOTUS for that.

 

And the average American normie isn't questioning the legitimacy of the Court; that's a media fiction. Sure, the idea has some traction on the left, but I can guarantee you that the more strategic thinkers understand the risk in doing so, and like ignoring the courts, this is nothing but political bluster. Once you start ignoring rulings you don't like, your enemies will begin ignoring rulings you do.

[TargetCollector]

On 8/15/2023 at 5:06 PM, MrTriple said:

But that's the thing: Bruen is a panacea, and in a way that Heller and McDonald were not. The whole point of text/history/tradition is to make it effectively impossible for many forms of gun control to survive long-term.

 

But in the short term, you're unfortunately gonna have judges who either misapply Bruen or resist applying it properly. That's why you have SCOTUS and the appellate courts. And even they have various options for dealing with the problem that don't necessarily involve granting cert, such as GVR'ing cases (Bianchi for example).

 

Also, look at how aggressive SCOTUS is being with 2A cases. They could've just denied cert in cases like Bianchi; they didn't. They could've ignored us completely on Bevis; they didn't. That didn't happen post-Heller, now it is happening, and it's having an effect. We got a hearing on Barnett in under 50 days; that's unheard of for civil cases. You can thank SCOTUS for that.

 

And the average American normie isn't questioning the legitimacy of the Court; that's a media fiction. Sure, the idea has some traction on the left, but I can guarantee you that the more strategic thinkers understand the risk in doing so, and like ignoring the courts, this is nothing but political bluster. Once you start ignoring rulings you don't like, your enemies will begin ignoring rulings you do.

 

I think this is where I fundamentally disagree.  Judges misapplying Bruen is exactly the same thing as judges not wanting to accept the ramifications of Heller and McDonald as regarding the previous "dangerous and unusual" test and pretending that intermediate scrutiny is what those rulings intended. 

Under the new "text and tradition" standard they'll simply continue to claim it means they can ban everything that didn't exist in 1789, and then SCOTUS will have to issue yet-another ruling explaining the perfectly-clear explanation of Bruen, which will itself subsequently be miss-applied, quite intentionally.  The current remediations from SCOTUS may keep things moving a little faster, but we're just going to end up with another full SCOTUS opinion that finds AWB's based on these features list and limitations is unconstitutional, at which point they'll simply try a different, but functionally-equivalent set of features in a new law, knowing full-well it won't pass muster but hoping to get a new court before that point, all while they continue to enforce it for the years they'll be able to keep this rolling through its appeals.  

 

Even assuming I'm 100% incorrect on this, what exactly is the harm in bringing more potentially like-minded folks into the fold?  Why not fight on both fronts instead of putting all our eggs into the court basket?

[TargetCollector]

On 8/15/2023 at 4:51 PM, yurimodin said:

I really didn't think I was.

 

What irks me is when they go on and on that Trump is a fascist and they will all die in anti trans-gender concentration camps.......meanwhile they buy AR's and tell us we can't. 

 

What they refuse to admit is they are socialists first(gibs me dat) and gunowners second.

 

Rhetoric like that is exactly what I'm talking about.  Who cares what they think of Trump?  For that matter, why are gun rights advocates supporting him when he was one of the worst republican presidents for our cause in the last 50 years?!  The liberals who buy AR's might prefer you personally not own one, but they also don't generally support these kinds of blanket bans, and we're making it look like they have no choice because "it's simply too dangerous to vote for anyone else".  Help them move their party in a better direction, so that they can continue to believe in their other causes without having to give up their common ground with us.

[yurimodin]

On 8/15/2023 at 11:06 PM, TargetCollector said:

 

Rhetoric like that is exactly what I'm talking about.  Who cares what they think of Trump?  For that matter, why are gun rights advocates supporting him when he was one of the worst republican presidents for our cause in the last 50 years?!  The liberals who buy AR's might prefer you personally not own one, but they also don't generally support these kinds of blanket bans, and we're making it look like they have no choice because "it's simply too dangerous to vote for anyone else".  Help them move their party in a better direction, so that they can continue to believe in their other causes without having to give up their common ground with us.

Its not 'wetowick'.......it is exactly what they say. I have had Democrats actually say this to me.

 

They DO support these blanket bans because it comes from 'their people' which means it has to be ok(in their mind).

 

The only way their party moves in a better direction is pushback from the grass roots to get rid of their litmus test issues that weeds out the few sane people in the Democrat party that want to run above the state level. Abortion, single payer deathcare, climate worship, transitioning children, school monopoly via unions, etc. In 2008 I was practically ran out of the Republican party for failing 'our' own litmus tests of the time like war with everyone, free trade/competing with slave wages, open border(W. never built that fence congress told him to)......I remember getting into several arguments with 'conservatives' because I dared to point out that W. (the greatest constitutional conservative of our time) instructed his DOJ to argue that the 2A was not an individual right when the Heller case was going to SCOTUS. Now look at the GOP....they finally came around on many of those issues.

 

Its like my old saying I have had for years, "You can choose between the big government socialists on the right, or the big government communists on the left".

 

 

Edited August 16, 2023 at 11:23 AM by yurimodin

[mab22]

I recall the Democrats got their @$$es handed to them around 2010 over shoving Obama care down everyone’s throats. But of course Republicans can get their heads out of their @$$es to reverse it, thanks McCain! 

[yurimodin]

On 8/16/2023 at 8:32 AM, mab22 said:

I recall the Democrats got their @$$es handed to them around 2010 over shoving Obama care down everyone’s throats. But of course Republicans can get their heads out of their @$$es to reverse it, thanks McCain! 

What's the point of giving the GOP historic landslides if they refuse to do anything with it besides smile while they screw us vs the Democrats scowling while the screw us.

[TargetCollector]

Got it, nothing to do, nothing to change, everything is fine, the courts will just magically save all of us.  Glad we've got folks like you doing so much to help the cause by literally just sitting there waiting for the good news to come in.  Just like when it came in in January that the AWB didn't pass or when dealer licensing never passed or when we never had to deal with silly red-flag laws in this state or when the FOID requirement was dropped as unconstitutional ...

 

I'm glad you guys at least live in a state where the courts always solve our problems in a timely enough manner to deter such nonsense, because it sure isn't Illinois.

Edited August 16, 2023 at 03:13 PM by TargetCollector

[mab22]

On 8/16/2023 at 10:05 AM, TargetCollector said:

Got it, nothing to do, nothing to change, everything is fine, the courts will just magically save all of us.  Glad we've got folks like you doing so much to help the cause by literally just sitting there waiting for the good news to come in.  Just like when it came in in January that the AWB didn't pass or when dealer licensing never passed or when we never had to deal with silly red-flag laws in this state or when the FOID requirement was dropped as unconstitutional ...

 

I'm glad you guys at least live in a state where the courts always solve our problems in a timely enough manner to deter such nonsense, because it sure isn't Illinois.

And what are we supposed to do, that we are not already doing?

[TargetCollector]

I'm advocating for bringing more folks into the fold and engaging people who agree with us on guns and who could be advocating legislatively for our cause.  In particular, I'm advocating for breaking down the perceived barrier between folks here and any and all gun owners who don't happen to also be died-in-the-wool conservatives in every regard.  

[Jeffrey]

On 8/16/2023 at 12:19 PM, TargetCollector said:

I'm advocating for bringing more folks into the fold and engaging people who agree with us on guns and who could be advocating legislatively for our cause.  In particular, I'm advocating for breaking down the perceived barrier between folks here and any and all gun owners who don't happen to also be died-in-the-wool conservatives in every regard.  

I believe that has been happening from most of the members here for a long time.  I know because of numerous stories that have been told inside this forum.  Unless someone is showing interest to begin with, it is difficult to turn a Swede into an American.

[mab22]

On 8/16/2023 at 12:19 PM, TargetCollector said:

I'm advocating for bringing more folks into the fold and engaging people who agree with us on guns and who could be advocating legislatively for our cause.  In particular, I'm advocating for breaking down the perceived barrier between folks here and any and all gun owners who don't happen to also be died-in-the-wool conservatives in every regard.  

With attacks like this, how exactly would you engage anyone in the Democrat party?

https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/pritzker-democrat-day-illinois-state-fair

 

[TargetCollector]

I can see there's no convincing you of anything.  Just know that there are independents like myself who categorically disagree with the recent trends in the Republican party and its candidates while also wholeheartedly supporting gun rights.  I have contributed thousands of dollars to ISRA and SAF to support cases like these, have called my state rep and senator each time these bills make it to the floor, filed the witness slips and spent time taking skeptical friends to the range to educate them about what these things actually do instead of what they've seen in the movies and news.  

 

Consistently, though, you make it sound as if I'm automatically your enemy because I'm not a MAGA Republican or anything close to it.  You're assuming that everyone who doesn't agree with ALL of your positions is therefore your enemy and that you don't need their support.  That frankly sounds a lot like Hillary in 2016.

Edited August 17, 2023 at 02:58 PM by TargetCollector

[SiliconSorcerer]

If I had a maga hat I would start wearing it just to p... people off. 

I've 1000's of witness slips, letters electronic and paper, and recently a couple registered letters, every representative I have is sheet now. 

I was in DuPage before you could find a f... Democrat and the county is just crap and damn near hopeless but I keep trying.

By the way DuPage put this up,  https://berrydunn.mysocialpinpoint.com/dupagecountyil/ideas#/ if you care to write a comment, I'm sure mine will get flagged. 

Save the link because they try to only get you to comment once if you follow their links....