Can legally carry in a bar that is open when not a customer but a contractor

[flw]

I have a bit of a unusual situation. I am a independent contractor that has been asked to base my service (not security) our of a bar owners business. I always have carried legally when working before. The bar owner has also not properly marked his doors which is a minor issue.

 

Since I am not a customer nor a employee, but a contractor (not security) and am there at the request of the owner for a set number of hours, is there any legal aspect keeping me from carrying while in the bar? (again there is no drinking involved)

[armadroid]

If it has the wrong sign no lol

[POAT54]

If the business is posted, no you can not carry, under FCCL. Could claim carry as owner or employee with permission. But you said you are not an employee.

[spec5]

If Posted nobody can give you permission to break the law. Where in the FCCA does it say if someone has to post you can't carry EXCEPT when someone gives you permission.

[mauserme]

I have a bit of a unusual situation. I am a independent contractor that has been asked to base my service (not security) our of a bar owners business. I always have carried legally when working before. The bar owner has also not properly marked his doors which is a minor issue.

 

Since I am not a customer nor a employee, but a contractor (not security) and am there at the request of the owner for a set number of hours, is there any legal aspect keeping me from carrying while in the bar? (again there is no drinking involved)

Do you mean the bar is not posted, or that it's posted, but incorrectly?

[Bubbacs]

I'm also curious about what type of business the bar owner would want working out of a bar if not security?

Tax Prep

Mixologist

 

But seriously, do they serve food?

Is alcohol the plus % of their business?

[tkroenlein]

Will your business address be the same as the bar?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[flw]

Main entrance is not marked at all.

 

I am drive (usually home or other businesses) for people as a contractor and the owner would like to have two options for his customers. One is help reduce drunk driving and two give riders a coupon for $5 off next visit.

 

Like many freedoms in life I was not given permission to carry by the owner but I was not barred either. I guess the closest answer would be can bartenders carry that are not owners?

[mauserme]

Main entrance is not marked at all.

 

...

Is there more about that, about being posted or not, that might help get this figured out?

[cope]

seems pretty simple really.... once you ask yourself a few questions

 

is the bar posted

 

do you have explicit permission from the owner

 

are you technically employed by the bar

 

if bar is posted = then you would need explicit permission to carry whether or not you are an employee

 

if bar is not posted = then if youre technically not employed by the bar you would fall under the same guidelines as everybody else, if you are technically employed by the bar then you would fall under the bar employee guidlines (requiring explicit permission to carry)

 

bottom line... you better get permission from the bar owner

[Bubbacs]

So like a Ubber/Taxi driver, sitting around the bar waiting for people to get drunk and need a ride?

Then the bar owner is trying to limit his liability maybe!

And if you get a call for another customer, you leave and come back to the bar as your base camp?

 

Why not leave you CCW in the car/cab and tell the patrons you'll meet them at the front door?

Get into the car and load up and then drive them home.

Then you eliminate then worry about being in a bar while carrying and any issues it may bring!

[Uncle Harley]

if it's not posted, you are breaking no laws. If it's in your contract that you can not carry as a subcontractor you can lose your contract and income but not go to jail. This seems pretty straight forward.

[WARFACE]

Ask an attorney. I have a similar situation where I do equipment repair in my friends kitchen in his bar. He tells me to carry if I want to but I don't. I don't want to be on the losing end of a gray-area argument. Let someone else go under the bus.

[speedbump]

The statute, IIRC, states "...fixed PLACE of employment", not 'place where you are on the payroll.' Maybe yes, maybe not. I've seen very few attorneys that know the statutes involved (plural) well enough to give an informed opinion. If possible, query a lawyer that specializes in firearms law, or ask the states attorneys office directly.

[Smallbore]

In this situation could the op open carry inside the bar. Throw a jacket on as he exits the door?

[cope]

IMO

 

if he is operating a chauffer service out of a bar with permission and association with the bar owner... he is his own boss and the bar is his "fixed" place of employment

 

posted or not there is no law that says he cannot carry (even openly) inside the bar if he has the owners permission as he is operating a fixed business on quasi-rented property

 

the only laws to contend with are A: do you have a business license and B: do you have a chauffers license.... otherwise its an illegal business and therefore would rule out the above

 

of course you wouldnt need a business license if the patrons paid the bartender who then cut you in on it

 

either way you need the permission of the bar owner to carry in any capacity ( unless its not legally posted)

[flw]

Uber driver makes me a contractor. Owner has asked several of us to stage out of his business when it gets cold. All I need to be a Uber driver is a clean Standard driver's license ,full insurance, registration, clean criminal and driving background checks along with pictures of myself and car to be driven which must be less than 10 years old. I get a 1099 at the beginning of the next year for my own business taxes.

 

Hope this clarifies my position. For now, I do not carry in the bar as a just in case and car carry from there.

[raymond963]

I signed up to be a Uber driver a while back and drove 4 times before I found out that Uber had 'banned' guns from MY vehicle.

 

I decided that, instead, I would ban Uber from my vehicle and tell them exactly why. They must have so many drivers that they don't care.

[WARFACE]

In my humble opinion, someone might have the luck that no one would everfind out about carrying in a bar or other posted location. Heck, I know guys that have been carrying in Illinois for a long time before we had CCW, but eventually, everyones luck runs out. Pushing the uncharted bounries of a brand new law, that the state was forced to adopt, is asking for trouble. You may win in a court battle but how much money is someone willing to blow to prove they are right? Try explaining to a overzealous prosecutor why you did what you did. The moon in the 7th star, and Jupiter aligned with Mars probably wouldn't hold up in court. When I see a no guns sign, it means just that , and if you are caught, you will be held accountable. Get your checkbook ready if anyone sees it otherwise. We need people to push the boundries of law to establish case law so I say, let your conscience beyour guide.

[Pipedoc]

Uber driver makes me a contractor. Owner has asked several of us to stage out of his business when it gets cold. All I need to be a Uber driver is a clean Standard driver's license ,full insurance, registration, clean criminal and driving background checks along with pictures of myself and car to be driven which must be less than 10 years old. I get a 1099 at the beginning of the next year for my own business taxes.

 

Hope this clarifies my position. For now, I do not carry in the bar as a just in case and car carry from there.

If your business license does not give the bar address as your fixed place of business I would say no. Your fixed place of business is where you operate your business from not where stage out of. As a plumbing service contractor my fixed place of business was not my customers home where I performed plumbing work or in my truck where I practically lived, it was my office address where I did my paperwork and ran my business.

[Bubbacs]

Once he states he is a Uber driver it's moot.

Uber does not allow drivers to carry.

If your on the clock it's against their policy.

In a bar with 16 different variables isn't being a law abiding citizen.

Uber could fire you, the man could take you for a ride, and with what I read about Uber,

you are not making the funds to defend a case like this.

 

Why not wait in a coffe shop or at home, have the bar owner shoot you a quick text and then head over to grab the fare?

 

And while re reading, if it was my buddy who owned the bar and it wasn't posted correctly, or not at all.

I'd let him know to help him out, why let him hang in the wind for a possible $5000.00 fine as described in the statute?

If he's required to post, be a friend and get the correct signs up!

FWIW.

[AlphaKoncepts aka CGS]

I am not a lawyer. You may FOID carry in any property with permission from the owner, and not need a concealed carry license to do so. In other words, with permission from the owner you may carry, but you won't be carrying under the Illinois Firearm Concealed Carry Act, you will instead be carrying under the Illinois Firearm owner IDentificiation Act.

[kwc]

I'm no lawyer either, but feel compelled to offer some thoughts on this issue because I believe a plain reading of the text in each statute is enough to make it clear that taking a firearm into the bar is not an option for the original poster.

 

Four primary statutes apply:

 

1. Firearm Concealed Carry Act (430 ILCS 66/65(a)(9)

2. Liquor Control Act (235 ILCS 5/10.1(c-5))

3. Criminal Code - Unlawful Use of Weapons (720 ILCS 5/24-1)

4. Firearm Owner's Identification Act (430 ILCS 65)

 

Let's analyze each of these:

 

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FCCA and LCA

 

The first two, the FCCA and LCA, prohibit concealed carry in establishments where gross receipts of alcohol sales are 50 percent or more. The OP seems pretty convinced this bar meets the requirement. The bar owner is playing with fire by not posting, as there is a $5000 fine for not doing so.

 

Granted, how would a patron know if the bar wasn't posted? Could someone be arrested for entering a bar that wasn't properly posted? That has sparked endless debates and we won't settle that one here. But the OP doesn't seem to have any doubt that this is truly a bar.

 

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CRIMINAL CODE (UUW)

 

The third statute above (criminal code) allow one to possess & carry a firearm in his or her "fixed place of business." I'm pretty sure the definition in the Revenue Code would be used to explain what this means. Look here:

 

http://www.revenue.state.il.us/legalinformation/regs/part100/100-3405.pdf

 

Fixed Place of Business. The term "fixed place of business" has the same meaning as that term is given in Section 864 of the Internal Revenue Code and the related Treasury regulations. (IITA Section 1501( a )(9.5))

 

* A ) As a general rule, a "fixed place of business" is a fixed facility, that is, a place, site, structure or other similar facility, through which the taxpayer engages in a trade or business. (See 26 CFR 1.864-7( b )(1).) 


 

* B ) A taxpayer is not considered to have a fixed place of business merely because the taxpayer uses another person's fixed place of business, whether or not the other person and the taxpayer are related persons, through which to transact a trade or business, if the trade or business activities of the taxpayer in that fixed place of business are relatively sporadic or infrequent, taking into account the overall needs and conduct of that trade or business. (See 26 CFR 1.864-7( b )(2).)

 

 

I think it would be a stretch for a Uber driver to call the bar his "fixed place of business," but there could be a *little* wiggle room if this is more than a sporadic/infrequent arrangement, AND it is closely related to the conduct of that business (selling alcohol), AND the bar owner agrees his bar is also the OP's fixed place of business. (Is the OP paying taxes on it, which would be covered under the revenue code?). Based on what has been presented so far, such an arrangement is in question.

 

The UUW also allows someone to give permission to possess or carry, independent of the FCCA, "on their land" or "in their dwelling." Land is... land. A dwelling is one's residence (where they live). I'm convinced a business property is neither, and the UUW statute doesn't allow a business owner to grant permission for someone to carry in his or business.

 

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FOID Act

 

There is no such thing as "FOID Carry." Someone who has a FOID card can transport unloaded/encased, and of course a FOID card is required merely to possess a firearm anywhere (as an IL resident).

 

In concert with the UUW, transporting an unloaded and encased firearm into the bar or other prohibited area *may* pass legal muster, but that issue is far from settled. There are plenty of hot threads here on IC debating this topic so let's not go there now.

 

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CONCLUSION:

 

Except for transporting an unloaded, encased firearm in the bar, in my opinion the weight of evidence suggests it would be best to avoid carrying a loaded, concealed firearm into that establishment, unless the OP is willing to risk the first offense FCCA penalty of a Class B Misdemeanor charge (the most likely charge given the OP has a CCL).

 

 

.

[defaultdotxbe]

I think a business owner can give permission to employees to carry, since you see it in pretty much every LGS in the state. So unless they have been breaking the laws for decades it should be OK.

 

That said, what if the bar owner were pay the OP some token stipend, like $1 per evening he's there. That would put him on the payroll and make him an employee and thus able to be given permission to carry. He would have to disarm before getting in his car to give anyone a ride, but he could just drop his gun a gun vault in the bar office or something, and re-arm when he gets back.

 

The only potentional snag is that the Liquor Control Act doesn't say that the owner has to prohibit carry "pursuant to the FCCA" or anything like that, but that they have to prohibit "the carrying of concealed firearms" so that may take the UUW exemption away from them as well. Although honestly that would be on the owner and not the OP's problem.

 

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[kwc]

I think a business owner can give permission to employees to carry, since you see it in pretty much every LGS in the state. So unless they have been breaking the laws for decades it should be OK.

 

 

 

"For the purpose of... the lawful commerce in weapons" is one of the exceptions allowed in the UUW/AUUW statutes. Gun stores fall under that exception. That is distinctly different from a non-weapons related business giving their employees permission to carry a firearm.

[defaultdotxbe]

 

I think a business owner can give permission to employees to carry, since you see it in pretty much every LGS in the state. So unless they have been breaking the laws for decades it should be OK.

 

 

"For the purpose of... the lawful commerce in weapons" is one of the exceptions allowed in the UUW/AUUW statutes. Gun stores fall under that exception. That is distinctly different from a non-weapons related business giving their employees permission to carry a firearm.

 

The part you left out seems to be the key phrase: "for the purpose of the display of such weapon" in other words it would appear to apply to the handling of uncased firearms for the purposes of showing them to customers, not necessarily walking around the store armed

 

 

The narrow interpretation of "land" and "legal dwelling" would also seem to prohibit me from carrying in my own detached garage lol

[kwc]

The part you left out seems to be the key phrase: "for the purpose of the display of such weapon" in other words it would appear to apply to the handling of uncased firearms for the purposes of showing them to customers, not necessarily walking around the store armed.

 

I left out the phrase because "display of" and "commerce in" are separated by an "or." They are separate exemptions. One isn't dependent upon the other.

 

"... for the purpose of the display of such weapon or the lawful commerce in weapons..."

[Glock23]

Super simple, in my opinion.

 

You said the bar was not posted, so carry on.

 

To expand a bit, the law doesn't say bars have to post... it says that places which make 51% or more of their money from alcohol sales have to post.

 

Some bars serve food. Some have gambling machines. Others get proceeds from pool/dart/etc leagues that they host. It is their responsibility, not yours, to know their sales ratio and post accordingly, if necessary.

 

I carry in "bars" on an almost weekly basis when shooting on a pool league.

[flw]

BTW- When any driver that does ride sharing which Uber is just one, they are not on the clock when waiting for a rider to call. We are compensated by no one for waiting. Also there is no "business licence" involved on the driver end, period.

 

The only reason it came up as after 10 pm my location shuts down except for the bars. So come early winter our cars will be the only place to generate heat and running the engine is a money losing idea.

 

I may just take the winter off and then the point is moot.